General Discussion Triathlon Talk » First Du... what's different from Tri's? Rss Feed  
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2015-03-19 6:23 AM

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Subject: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
OK, besides the obvious... What should I be aware of in my first Du that is diff. From tri's? Any strategy, (pacing, nutrition, transition etc.) or other point I should be aware of? Or is it really just a tri with running at the beginning instead of swimming? How have other's faired with running twice in the race? Running b4 biking? Etc.

Just wanna be prepared
Thanks!
-Nate


2015-03-19 6:55 AM
in reply to: triathlonpal07

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?

What are the race distances?

It's really, really, really easy to blow your race by going too hard in the first run.

2015-03-19 6:57 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
Only done one real du (run-bike-run format) and I hadn't planned on it; switched the morning of the race when swim had very rough conditions due to a storm the night before. (They announced less than an hour before that we could switch without penalty as conditions were marginal; I'm a strong swimmer, but just wasn't comfortable with the swim given the safety setup at that particular event.)

I learned the hard way that you need to do the first run at a more controlled effort or you will feel it on the bike. I'm a much better runner than biker, and took the lead on the run, only to die on the bike (HR was too high and felt nauseous, had trouble getting nutrition down until late on a 62 km bike leg), and then a mediocre second run. In hot conditions, you're also more likely to have heat issues as you're not starting "pre-cooled" from the swim. Finally, I think it would help to focus run training on a distance that's the total of the two runs. In my case, in the original tri I would have had to run 12 km. That was my longest tri of the season and my other races were sprints and Olys, so I was focusing my run training on 5-10 km, with long runs of about 80 minutes and a lot of speed work at 5K pace and faster (thus the fast first leg). But the du involved 18 km of running. Ouch! Had I known I was doing the du, I would have done more half-marathon focused running.

I also discovered that stronger bikers tend to enter du's. I thought as a strong runner that I would do well running twice, but in fact I placed worse relative to the whole field, women, and my AG than in most of my tris. I simply got blown away on the bike. My guess is that so many triathletes are weak swimmers (and quite a few are strong runners) that doing pretty well at the swim matters more for tri than being a good runner does for du, at least if one isn't a strong biker.

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-03-19 6:59 AM
2015-03-19 7:20 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?

From what I've seen stronger duathletes can certainly rather bike well, but are blazing fast on the run. If you're not a strong biker and went too fast on the first run, then the bike difference is going to look worse than it should have been. It's that much harder if you aren't used to biking after a run too.

And for a duathlon in general, these things are going to hurt a lot if you really push it. That first run is going to be pushing harder than many of us do in a swim and then the bike & second run aren't going to be any easier.



Edited by brigby1 2015-03-19 7:46 AM
2015-03-19 8:05 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
That was the other thing I was going to mention. Recovery took longer and I was a lot more sore the next day than for most of my tri's, including the same event the following year where I did the tri with the swim (1800m), with the same bike and second run distance. Could have been related to lousy nutrition on the du but I've had similar issues with tri's in hot weather and not felt that bad the next day. (Both races took me about 3h50m.)
2015-03-19 8:42 AM
in reply to: triathlonpal07

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?

Competing in triathlons you get used to getting to the run then just giving it everything you have got left, especially over the shorter distances.  Obviously this mind set needs adapting in a duathlon as it is important you don't go too hard on the first run, but also not taking it too easily.  From the race results I have looked at the best athletes do both runs in pretty similar times.



2015-03-19 9:30 AM
in reply to: tridantri

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
Though I am a stronger biker than runner, my overall fitness is very close to even. It's still dangerous to blow yourself out going too hard in first run. Run-bike-run can be annoying to some. Know yourself and make sure your pace in the first run allows you to perform at your personal high level in the successive bike and run. This comes from proper training and knowing your threshold, race pace, easy paces in your running at particular distances (and/or conditions, i.e. hills). Perhaps a test or tune-up shorter distance brick or duath type session in your workout routine; maybe 2- 3 weeks out from event. Do it at 85-90% max HR zone. I always do a self test before an event at roughly that intensity, it helps me get in tune with my current condition and progress. At least for me
2015-03-19 10:27 AM
in reply to: triathlonpal07

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
My du experience is different than most. My first du was done 6 days after a PR marathon. I didn't run at all between the marathon and the du. The du was 5K/20K/5K. My first run was within 30 seconds of my 5K PR, bike was all out, second run was about 20 seconds slower than the first. I was 4-5 overall in both runs and crushed everyone on the bike to take the overall win. I was surprised to run as well as I did and it felt pretty effortless compared to the marathon the week before.

I had been running 40-50 miles/week, so going hard in both runs wasn't a problem. Holding back a little in the first run may be advisable if you don't run that much.

One other thing is as part of tri training I did regular brick sessions in the following manner. Bike 5 miles, run 1 mile, repeat 4-5 times continuously at a full out effort. Those sessions allowed me to be used to running hard and biking hard, plus practicing very fast transitions.
2015-03-19 12:41 PM
in reply to: Donskiman

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?

Originally posted by Donskiman My du experience is different than most. My first du was done 6 days after a PR marathon. I didn't run at all between the marathon and the du. The du was 5K/20K/5K. My first run was within 30 seconds of my 5K PR, bike was all out, second run was about 20 seconds slower than the first. I was 4-5 overall in both runs and crushed everyone on the bike to take the overall win. I was surprised to run as well as I did and it felt pretty effortless compared to the marathon the week before. I had been running 40-50 miles/week, so going hard in both runs wasn't a problem. Holding back a little in the first run may be advisable if you don't run that much. One other thing is as part of tri training I did regular brick sessions in the following manner. Bike 5 miles, run 1 mile, repeat 4-5 times continuously at a full out effort. Those sessions allowed me to be used to running hard and biking hard, plus practicing very fast transitions.

"Holding back" is all relative.  If you run the first 5k flat-out, you will pay on the bike and run.  That said, for most people, that first 5k will still be "hard".  With 10k of total running, you should be very close to your 10k pace for each run.

2015-03-19 3:10 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Donskiman My du experience is different than most. My first du was done 6 days after a PR marathon. I didn't run at all between the marathon and the du. The du was 5K/20K/5K. My first run was within 30 seconds of my 5K PR, bike was all out, second run was about 20 seconds slower than the first. I was 4-5 overall in both runs and crushed everyone on the bike to take the overall win. I was surprised to run as well as I did and it felt pretty effortless compared to the marathon the week before. I had been running 40-50 miles/week, so going hard in both runs wasn't a problem. Holding back a little in the first run may be advisable if you don't run that much. One other thing is as part of tri training I did regular brick sessions in the following manner. Bike 5 miles, run 1 mile, repeat 4-5 times continuously at a full out effort. Those sessions allowed me to be used to running hard and biking hard, plus practicing very fast transitions.

"Holding back" is all relative.  If you run the first 5k flat-out, you will pay on the bike and run.  That said, for most people, that first 5k will still be "hard".  With 10k of total running, you should be very close to your 10k pace for each run.




I was going to say half-marathon pace.

When I think about how hard I race a 10k, there's no way I could do that pace with a 20k bike in the middle.
2015-03-19 3:47 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?

Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Donskiman My du experience is different than most. My first du was done 6 days after a PR marathon. I didn't run at all between the marathon and the du. The du was 5K/20K/5K. My first run was within 30 seconds of my 5K PR, bike was all out, second run was about 20 seconds slower than the first. I was 4-5 overall in both runs and crushed everyone on the bike to take the overall win. I was surprised to run as well as I did and it felt pretty effortless compared to the marathon the week before. I had been running 40-50 miles/week, so going hard in both runs wasn't a problem. Holding back a little in the first run may be advisable if you don't run that much. One other thing is as part of tri training I did regular brick sessions in the following manner. Bike 5 miles, run 1 mile, repeat 4-5 times continuously at a full out effort. Those sessions allowed me to be used to running hard and biking hard, plus practicing very fast transitions.

"Holding back" is all relative.  If you run the first 5k flat-out, you will pay on the bike and run.  That said, for most people, that first 5k will still be "hard".  With 10k of total running, you should be very close to your 10k pace for each run.

I was going to say half-marathon pace. When I think about how hard I race a 10k, there's no way I could do that pace with a 20k bike in the middle.

10k pace sounds about right to me - it's the easier half of it.  



2015-03-19 4:43 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Donskiman My du experience is different than most. My first du was done 6 days after a PR marathon. I didn't run at all between the marathon and the du. The du was 5K/20K/5K. My first run was within 30 seconds of my 5K PR, bike was all out, second run was about 20 seconds slower than the first. I was 4-5 overall in both runs and crushed everyone on the bike to take the overall win. I was surprised to run as well as I did and it felt pretty effortless compared to the marathon the week before. I had been running 40-50 miles/week, so going hard in both runs wasn't a problem. Holding back a little in the first run may be advisable if you don't run that much. One other thing is as part of tri training I did regular brick sessions in the following manner. Bike 5 miles, run 1 mile, repeat 4-5 times continuously at a full out effort. Those sessions allowed me to be used to running hard and biking hard, plus practicing very fast transitions.

"Holding back" is all relative.  If you run the first 5k flat-out, you will pay on the bike and run.  That said, for most people, that first 5k will still be "hard".  With 10k of total running, you should be very close to your 10k pace for each run.

I was going to say half-marathon pace. When I think about how hard I race a 10k, there's no way I could do that pace with a 20k bike in the middle.

10k pace sounds about right to me - it's the easier half of it.  

It does sound crazy with the two runs in there vs 1 for the tri, but it can work out like that. Might not get to 10k pace on both, but should likely be closer to that than half marathon.

2015-03-19 9:02 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
Either you guys are cycling really easy, or you're not racing the 10k hard enough.

Actually, the difference between half-marathon pace and 10k pace will be only about 45 seconds over 5k, so we're kind of splitting hairs here by arguing which one is closer. I can see how the "rest" of the transitions and the bike can bring it somewhere between 10k and half pace.
2015-03-19 9:50 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?

Is 10k or half marathon a better description for a sprint tri run?

At my paces for these I came up with a 58 sec difference over a 5k. Just one of them. For me that's a fair amount more than splitting hairs, but for others it may not be.

2015-03-20 7:21 AM
in reply to: triathlonpal07

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Subject: RE: First Du... what's different from Tri's?
Duathlons are quite different than tri's despite 2/3 being the same… The pacing for the first run is crucial (as discussed), but also the first mile on the bike after T1 is really important. Let your legs ease into the ride and before you really start pushing it. It's a very different experience and one that you need to pace correctly.

The transitions also becomes quite important since they are quite fast. Unlike T1 in a tri, you really need to plan well to get out of the running shoes (and place them correctly so you can easily get into them again in T2) and into the cycling shoes. Best strategy is the flying mount, no question about that, although, if you're not comfortable with that, don't trying it the first time in a race… I've seen enough people swerve and causing a crash or crashing themselves.

Duathlons are all about pacing and not killing your legs too quickly. For the first one, just enjoy and learn from your mistakes so the second one will be ever better. You'll get hooked, Du's are an absolute blast! As and added bonus, very little chance of drowning. :-)
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