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2015-03-26 10:42 AM
in reply to: triosaurus

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Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width

Originally posted by triosaurus
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks
Originally posted by triosaurus So, may I ask a further question on this? The more flexibility / reach one is capable of, the greater the range of motion through which power can be exerted, and presumably a 'better' more powerful/efficient swim pull. Correct? ( assuming the generally accepted lay person meanings for the previous terms...) So, the question - Is a lack of strength then an issue? By this, I mean the inability to apply power throughout the complete range of motion. Or is this a non-issue? Surely, I am 'stronger' than the 11-yr olds who motor past me, leaving me awash in a wake of embarrassment Seriously, thanks to all for the great info
Very generally, the longer time and distance you can apply propulsive force to the water, the better. You are likely far stronger than the 11 year olds. And you likely create far more propulsive force than they do to. But their advantage is that they create HUGELY less drag than you. Yes, you should improve your propulsion. But that will only get you so far. But make big reductions to your drag, and then you will fly in the water. That is the key for 95% of adult swimmers.
It becomes very much like power to weight ratios on a bike when going uphill. (equate drag to weight) The 11 yr girl has very little drag therefore does not require as much strength to go fast. You can only reduce your drag so much, at which point you need to increase your propulsion. Notice I did not say strength. Strength is one part of that propulsion. So yes at some point strength can be a limiting factor, Michael Phelps is not exactly a 98lb weakling right? For most triathletes they are limited by form and technique.

 

The young swimmer also possesses more specific strength than you, relatively. Meaning that while you are stronger, they will apply a much larger percentage to the specific movement needed to swim, where the adult will waste tons of energy or strength with a sloppy pull.

Also remember, in swimming propulsion also reduces drag, which is unique relative to biking and running. So reduction in drag is good (a la TI), but propulsion can often help reduce drag as well.

LOTS of great info/food for thought here. Many thanks. TJ - can you provide a bit more here, or a link to info on the part about " propulsion can often help reduce drag as well. " I want to wrap my head around that!

 

It's a little counter intuitive but simple really. Think of a water skier. Sitting in the water with the ski's straight up and down. As soon as the boat takes out the slack, what happens? This ski's go almost level because of the lift that the movement (propulsion) provides. Of course when the boat takes off the ski's plane on top of the water creating almost no drag at all.

So, apply that to swimming. A horrible swimmer that gets a good pull will create better propulsion and the feet will immediately lift because of it. "Balance" becomes little to no issue and the feet are no longer dragging and the body is level.

On top of that, a moving body allows for greater arm turnover (tempo for all the tri coaches reading this). Just like paddling a kayak from a still position, it's hard to move the paddle through the water very fast, but once the boat is moving, it's relatively easy to click off the paddling in a good rhythm. Same with the swimmer. a good pull to move the body allows the pull tempo to speed up, not because the arm is stronger, but because the drag is less and inertia is now in play. In the world of triathlon, though a short cut is tried. 'Fast tempo' becomes more important than 'good pull'. So we get these bad swimmers beating the crap out of the water instead of bad swimmers learning just 1 thing - a good pull, which then helps correct all the other problems.

better explanation?



2015-03-27 12:04 AM
in reply to: tjfry

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Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by triosaurus
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks
Originally posted by triosaurus So, may I ask a further question on this? The more flexibility / reach one is capable of, the greater the range of motion through which power can be exerted, and presumably a 'better' more powerful/efficient swim pull. Correct? ( assuming the generally accepted lay person meanings for the previous terms...) So, the question - Is a lack of strength then an issue? By this, I mean the inability to apply power throughout the complete range of motion. Or is this a non-issue? Surely, I am 'stronger' than the 11-yr olds who motor past me, leaving me awash in a wake of embarrassment Seriously, thanks to all for the great info
Very generally, the longer time and distance you can apply propulsive force to the water, the better. You are likely far stronger than the 11 year olds. And you likely create far more propulsive force than they do to. But their advantage is that they create HUGELY less drag than you. Yes, you should improve your propulsion. But that will only get you so far. But make big reductions to your drag, and then you will fly in the water. That is the key for 95% of adult swimmers.
It becomes very much like power to weight ratios on a bike when going uphill. (equate drag to weight) The 11 yr girl has very little drag therefore does not require as much strength to go fast. You can only reduce your drag so much, at which point you need to increase your propulsion. Notice I did not say strength. Strength is one part of that propulsion. So yes at some point strength can be a limiting factor, Michael Phelps is not exactly a 98lb weakling right? For most triathletes they are limited by form and technique.

 

The young swimmer also possesses more specific strength than you, relatively. Meaning that while you are stronger, they will apply a much larger percentage to the specific movement needed to swim, where the adult will waste tons of energy or strength with a sloppy pull.

Also remember, in swimming propulsion also reduces drag, which is unique relative to biking and running. So reduction in drag is good (a la TI), but propulsion can often help reduce drag as well.

LOTS of great info/food for thought here. Many thanks. TJ - can you provide a bit more here, or a link to info on the part about " propulsion can often help reduce drag as well. " I want to wrap my head around that!

 

It's a little counter intuitive but simple really. Think of a water skier. Sitting in the water with the ski's straight up and down. As soon as the boat takes out the slack, what happens? This ski's go almost level because of the lift that the movement (propulsion) provides. Of course when the boat takes off the ski's plane on top of the water creating almost no drag at all.

So, apply that to swimming. A horrible swimmer that gets a good pull will create better propulsion and the feet will immediately lift because of it. "Balance" becomes little to no issue and the feet are no longer dragging and the body is level.

On top of that, a moving body allows for greater arm turnover (tempo for all the tri coaches reading this). Just like paddling a kayak from a still position, it's hard to move the paddle through the water very fast, but once the boat is moving, it's relatively easy to click off the paddling in a good rhythm. Same with the swimmer. a good pull to move the body allows the pull tempo to speed up, not because the arm is stronger, but because the drag is less and inertia is now in play. In the world of triathlon, though a short cut is tried. 'Fast tempo' becomes more important than 'good pull'. So we get these bad swimmers beating the crap out of the water instead of bad swimmers learning just 1 thing - a good pull, which then helps correct all the other problems.

better explanation?




TJ,

YES! Very well-explained. And, again, many thanks for taking the time to do so.

2015-03-27 1:37 PM
in reply to: triosaurus

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Oceanside, California
Subject: RE: Swim - Pull width
When someone is beginning, you have to focus on the indivicual components.

I see a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that one or two factors matter... it is the whole package.
drag, form, leverage, strength, speed, volume, cadence, etc. etc.

At the end of the day, it is the sum of everything.
However, in Triathlon, there is a lot of power in the old cliche that swims do not win Tri's, but they sure can lose them.

The previous posters have done a much better job describing how and why stroke technique and efficiency matter.

My fastest swim stroke was also the one that blew out my shoulders...
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