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2015-04-15 9:16 AM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jford2309

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by jmcconne
Originally posted by dmiller5 There is no where within 200 miles where a cake shop, caterer, whatever will do anything for your wedding because you're gay.  What are you supposed to do then? 
Bake your own cake. Better yet, start a bakery that serves that customer base
Originally posted by dmiller5 Meanwhile, you can't have the wedding you want.
Someone is either forced to work somewhere they do not want to, or someone doesn't get the wedding they want. Everybody cannot be happy.

this is total bullcrap. What are they supposed to do? Start a new business of every type that only serves gay people?  That's an ignorant and stupid answer.

If you live in a city of white people, and you're the only black guy, they can't tell you, well just start a burger joint for all the black people. And a cake shop. And a book store. And a ........

If this is what y'all really think is right and fair, then there is no point in this discussion at all. Because you're bigots who will rationalize discrimination.  News flash, this ain't the country for you.  The country has decided that its high time to treat those of all orientations equally, and its going to happen, just like the civil rights movement before this. And women's rights. And the ending of slavery.

We're all equal, and we all deserve the opportunity and chance to be happy and have a good life. Hiding behind religion to hurt others is not freedom of religion, its freedom to persecute those who don't believe in whichever made up children's story that you think is the correct one.

 

I can totally understand your point you are making, but here is the problem I have. It's when you start calling people's beliefs a "made up children's story". To me, that totally makes me disregard your whole post. You can certainly disagree with what people believe in, but when you start making fun of them and belittling their beliefs, it forces this issue back to square one. You could have ended your statement early and had the same effect.

I find the belief in god ridiculous. You don't have to agree. However, if someone around here started saying, "but in goldilocks in the three bears, we were shown that too large of a bed was bad, therefore everyone in this country must only use regular sized beds" you'd be telling me that I can't make others follow the rules of a made of children's story.

How is it that I come under fire for not believing in someone else's religion, while Christians are allowed to tell everyone else they're going to hell, and that gay people don't deserve to be treated with respect?



2015-04-15 9:27 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by jford2309

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by jmcconne
Originally posted by dmiller5 There is no where within 200 miles where a cake shop, caterer, whatever will do anything for your wedding because you're gay.  What are you supposed to do then? 
Bake your own cake. Better yet, start a bakery that serves that customer base
Originally posted by dmiller5 Meanwhile, you can't have the wedding you want.
Someone is either forced to work somewhere they do not want to, or someone doesn't get the wedding they want. Everybody cannot be happy.

this is total bullcrap. What are they supposed to do? Start a new business of every type that only serves gay people?  That's an ignorant and stupid answer.

If you live in a city of white people, and you're the only black guy, they can't tell you, well just start a burger joint for all the black people. And a cake shop. And a book store. And a ........

If this is what y'all really think is right and fair, then there is no point in this discussion at all. Because you're bigots who will rationalize discrimination.  News flash, this ain't the country for you.  The country has decided that its high time to treat those of all orientations equally, and its going to happen, just like the civil rights movement before this. And women's rights. And the ending of slavery.

We're all equal, and we all deserve the opportunity and chance to be happy and have a good life. Hiding behind religion to hurt others is not freedom of religion, its freedom to persecute those who don't believe in whichever made up children's story that you think is the correct one.

 

I can totally understand your point you are making, but here is the problem I have. It's when you start calling people's beliefs a "made up children's story". To me, that totally makes me disregard your whole post. You can certainly disagree with what people believe in, but when you start making fun of them and belittling their beliefs, it forces this issue back to square one. You could have ended your statement early and had the same effect.

I find the belief in god ridiculous. You don't have to agree. However, if someone around here started saying, "but in goldilocks in the three bears, we were shown that too large of a bed was bad, therefore everyone in this country must only use regular sized beds" you'd be telling me that I can't make others follow the rules of a made of children's story.

How is it that I come under fire for not believing in someone else's religion, while Christians are allowed to tell everyone else they're going to hell, and that gay people don't deserve to be treated with respect?

Yes I believe in God and no I am not trying to force you to believe in God in this discussion, but I am saying that relating the Bible, God and everything else to a children's story and making fun of that believe doesn't get anyone very far in a discussion. You are totally free to believe what you want. We are in agreement on that.

And I am not trying to make you feel like you are "coming under fire" for your beliefs, I was simply making a statement that in my opinion, your post lost some ummph when you/ or anyone on either side of the discussion starts belittling others beliefs.

 

2015-04-15 9:47 AM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Well I'm sorry if I offended you. The point of that comment was to try and make people think for a second that not everyone believes in the same moral authority as they do.

2015-04-15 9:54 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana
Goldilocks could be someone religion and they would be free to sell only 1 size bed and 1 temperature of porridge. I find no issues if they only want to sell to bears and not to people.

If they sell porridge to people and they cater weddings I would expect them to cater to gay weddings.
2015-04-15 10:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by dmiller5

Well I'm sorry if I offended you. The point of that comment was to try and make people think for a second that not everyone believes in the same moral authority as they do.

I believe in firm beds and hot porridge!!

And.....judging from my tax bill, God hates me!!



Edited by Left Brain 2015-04-15 10:18 AM
2015-04-15 10:25 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by dmiller5

Well I'm sorry if I offended you. The point of that comment was to try and make people think for a second that not everyone believes in the same moral authority as they do.

I believe in firm beds and hot porridge!!

And.....judging from my tax bill, God hates me!!




Actually good sized Tax bill means you made a lot of money which means you are blessed by God.

You are right it was a softness factor and not size. Dang it. I need to know these things. I will never be a Bearnarian.


2015-04-15 10:31 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by dmiller5

Well I'm sorry if I offended you. The point of that comment was to try and make people think for a second that not everyone believes in the same moral authority as they do.

I believe in firm beds and hot porridge!!

And.....judging from my tax bill, God hates me!!

Actually good sized Tax bill means you made a lot of money which means you are blessed by God. You are right it was a softness factor and not size. Dang it. I need to know these things. I will never be a Bearnarian.

If you were a bearnarian, you'd be tax exempt!

2015-04-15 10:38 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

I'm going to look for morel mushrooms......my day is ruined.

2015-04-15 10:40 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by Left Brain

I'm going to look for morel mushrooms......my day is ruined.

don't start that again....   there's no way you found morel mushrooms, they don't come out for at least 18.6 more hours!

2015-04-17 12:18 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by jmcconne
Originally posted by dmiller5 There is no where within 200 miles where a cake shop, caterer, whatever will do anything for your wedding because you're gay.  What are you supposed to do then? 
Bake your own cake. Better yet, start a bakery that serves that customer base
Originally posted by dmiller5 Meanwhile, you can't have the wedding you want.
Someone is either forced to work somewhere they do not want to, or someone doesn't get the wedding they want. Everybody cannot be happy.

this is total bullcrap. What are they supposed to do? Start a new business of every type that only serves gay people?  That's an ignorant and stupid answer.

If you live in a city of white people, and you're the only black guy, they can't tell you, well just start a burger joint for all the black people. And a cake shop. And a book store. And a ........

If this is what y'all really think is right and fair, then there is no point in this discussion at all. Because you're bigots who will rationalize discrimination.  News flash, this ain't the country for you.  The country has decided that its high time to treat those of all orientations equally, and its going to happen, just like the civil rights movement before this. And women's rights. And the ending of slavery.

We're all equal, and we all deserve the opportunity and chance to be happy and have a good life. Hiding behind religion to hurt others is not freedom of religion, its freedom to persecute those who don't believe in whichever made up children's story that you think is the correct one.

So, you claim Christians are Bigots, but how is your last sentence anything but a Bigoted statement?
I'll switch it around.  Do you feel that you should be able to force behaviors on those who don't believe in whichever belief system that you think is the correct one?

2015-04-20 2:59 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana
Originally posted by tuwood

Do you feel that you should be able to force behaviors on those who don't believe in whichever belief system that you think is the correct one?


Sort of.

One's religion, no matter how strongly it's felt, should not provide a license to deny civil rights to another person.

If I'm a landlord, and my backwards version of my faith says that race-mixing is an abomination before G-d, I still don't get to deny housing to mixed-race couples, no matter how strongly I feel about my faith.

If I've made a decision to serve the general public, I have to treat everyone equally, no matter what my religion says, and even if it means "allowing" people to act in a manner that is contrary to my own beliefs. If you think gay marriage is a sin and don't want to be a part of it, don't go into the wedding business. If your faith precludes you from working with unmarried pregnant women, don't become an obstetrician. Once you put the shingle out, you've got to accept all comers.

I'm not sure when we regressed back to the 50's and decided again that it was up to the owner of a business to decide which customers they cared to serve. Do we really want to go back to the days of restricted country clubs and whites-only restaurants?


2015-04-21 8:44 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Do you feel that you should be able to force behaviors on those who don't believe in whichever belief system that you think is the correct one?

Sort of. One's religion, no matter how strongly it's felt, should not provide a license to deny civil rights to another person. If I'm a landlord, and my backwards version of my faith says that race-mixing is an abomination before G-d, I still don't get to deny housing to mixed-race couples, no matter how strongly I feel about my faith. If I've made a decision to serve the general public, I have to treat everyone equally, no matter what my religion says, and even if it means "allowing" people to act in a manner that is contrary to my own beliefs. If you think gay marriage is a sin and don't want to be a part of it, don't go into the wedding business. If your faith precludes you from working with unmarried pregnant women, don't become an obstetrician. Once you put the shingle out, you've got to accept all comers. I'm not sure when we regressed back to the 50's and decided again that it was up to the owner of a business to decide which customers they cared to serve. Do we really want to go back to the days of restricted country clubs and whites-only restaurants?

You might find this article interesting:

The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone?

At the heart of the debate is a system of anti-discrimination laws enacted by federal, state and local governments. The entire United States is covered by the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. Places of “public accommodation” include hotels, restaurants, theaters, banks, health clubs and stores. Nonprofit organizations such as churches are generally exempt from the law.

The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which prohibits discrimination by private businesses based on disability.

The federal law does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, so gays are not a protected group under the federal law. However, about 20 states, including New York and California, have enacted laws that prohibit discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. In California, you also can’t discriminate based on someone’s unconventional dress. In some states, like Arizona, there’s no state law banning discrimination against gays, but there are local laws in some cities that prohibit sexual orientation discrimination.

So, no matter where you live, you cannot deny service to someone because of his or her race, color, religion, national origin or disability. In some states and cities, you also cannot discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation. If there is no state, federal or local law prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations against a particular group of people, then you can legally refuse to serve that group of people.

So, your statement is correct that I can't use my religious beliefs (or any other reason) to discriminate against a protected class, but that's it.  I can absolutely use my religious beliefs (or any other reason) to discriminate against anyone else as long as it doesn't violate the law.

I'm not saying it's right to discriminate and I'm not saying laws should or shouldn't be changed.  I'm merely stating what the laws are today.

 

 

2015-04-21 9:11 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Do you feel that you should be able to force behaviors on those who don't believe in whichever belief system that you think is the correct one?

Sort of. One's religion, no matter how strongly it's felt, should not provide a license to deny civil rights to another person. If I'm a landlord, and my backwards version of my faith says that race-mixing is an abomination before G-d, I still don't get to deny housing to mixed-race couples, no matter how strongly I feel about my faith. If I've made a decision to serve the general public, I have to treat everyone equally, no matter what my religion says, and even if it means "allowing" people to act in a manner that is contrary to my own beliefs. If you think gay marriage is a sin and don't want to be a part of it, don't go into the wedding business. If your faith precludes you from working with unmarried pregnant women, don't become an obstetrician. Once you put the shingle out, you've got to accept all comers. I'm not sure when we regressed back to the 50's and decided again that it was up to the owner of a business to decide which customers they cared to serve. Do we really want to go back to the days of restricted country clubs and whites-only restaurants?

You might find this article interesting:

The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone?

At the heart of the debate is a system of anti-discrimination laws enacted by federal, state and local governments. The entire United States is covered by the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. Places of “public accommodation” include hotels, restaurants, theaters, banks, health clubs and stores. Nonprofit organizations such as churches are generally exempt from the law.

The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which prohibits discrimination by private businesses based on disability.

The federal law does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, so gays are not a protected group under the federal law. However, about 20 states, including New York and California, have enacted laws that prohibit discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. In California, you also can’t discriminate based on someone’s unconventional dress. In some states, like Arizona, there’s no state law banning discrimination against gays, but there are local laws in some cities that prohibit sexual orientation discrimination.

So, no matter where you live, you cannot deny service to someone because of his or her race, color, religion, national origin or disability. In some states and cities, you also cannot discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation. If there is no state, federal or local law prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations against a particular group of people, then you can legally refuse to serve that group of people.

So, your statement is correct that I can't use my religious beliefs (or any other reason) to discriminate against a protected class, but that's it.  I can absolutely use my religious beliefs (or any other reason) to discriminate against anyone else as long as it doesn't violate the law.

I'm not saying it's right to discriminate and I'm not saying laws should or shouldn't be changed.  I'm merely stating what the laws are today.

 

 




I'm familiar with the law. There is what is legal and what is right. Slavery, at one time, was legal, and there were people, just like you, Tony, who argued against abolition on the basis that it was the law of the land, and that people who owned and sold other human beings were merely exercicing their legal rights.

For someone who claims not to support this kind of discrimination, you sure spend a lot of time defending those who use your own religion as an instrument of hatred and exclusion.

2015-04-21 9:34 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Do you feel that you should be able to force behaviors on those who don't believe in whichever belief system that you think is the correct one?

Sort of. One's religion, no matter how strongly it's felt, should not provide a license to deny civil rights to another person. If I'm a landlord, and my backwards version of my faith says that race-mixing is an abomination before G-d, I still don't get to deny housing to mixed-race couples, no matter how strongly I feel about my faith. If I've made a decision to serve the general public, I have to treat everyone equally, no matter what my religion says, and even if it means "allowing" people to act in a manner that is contrary to my own beliefs. If you think gay marriage is a sin and don't want to be a part of it, don't go into the wedding business. If your faith precludes you from working with unmarried pregnant women, don't become an obstetrician. Once you put the shingle out, you've got to accept all comers. I'm not sure when we regressed back to the 50's and decided again that it was up to the owner of a business to decide which customers they cared to serve. Do we really want to go back to the days of restricted country clubs and whites-only restaurants?

You might find this article interesting:

The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone?

At the heart of the debate is a system of anti-discrimination laws enacted by federal, state and local governments. The entire United States is covered by the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. Places of “public accommodation” include hotels, restaurants, theaters, banks, health clubs and stores. Nonprofit organizations such as churches are generally exempt from the law.

The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which prohibits discrimination by private businesses based on disability.

The federal law does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, so gays are not a protected group under the federal law. However, about 20 states, including New York and California, have enacted laws that prohibit discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. In California, you also can’t discriminate based on someone’s unconventional dress. In some states, like Arizona, there’s no state law banning discrimination against gays, but there are local laws in some cities that prohibit sexual orientation discrimination.

So, no matter where you live, you cannot deny service to someone because of his or her race, color, religion, national origin or disability. In some states and cities, you also cannot discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation. If there is no state, federal or local law prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations against a particular group of people, then you can legally refuse to serve that group of people.

So, your statement is correct that I can't use my religious beliefs (or any other reason) to discriminate against a protected class, but that's it.  I can absolutely use my religious beliefs (or any other reason) to discriminate against anyone else as long as it doesn't violate the law.

I'm not saying it's right to discriminate and I'm not saying laws should or shouldn't be changed.  I'm merely stating what the laws are today.

 

 

I'm familiar with the law. There is what is legal and what is right. Slavery, at one time, was legal, and there were people, just like you, Tony, who argued against abolition on the basis that it was the law of the land, and that people who owned and sold other human beings were merely exercicing their legal rights. For someone who claims not to support this kind of discrimination, you sure spend a lot of time defending those who use your own religion as an instrument of hatred and exclusion.

You crack me up.  If you're familiar with the law then you should be arguing that "this is how it should be" versus "this is how it is".  When you say "this is how it is" you are incorrect and that's why I have been correcting you.  Just because I'm explaining the law to you doesn't make me a bigot, hater, or a wannabe slave owner.  

2015-04-22 9:16 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana
Anyone else see the Texas lady trying to use the freedom of religion act to feed the homeless? Finally something positive I found by the law.
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So after about 10,000 emails, dozens of phone calls, and one pre-race pasta dinner, the 1st meeting of the Steve's in a triathlon finally arrived.