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2015-03-31 6:40 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by Donskiman
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Clempson

the important thing to take away from seeing people with speeds like this is realizing that you can be just as fast.  with the right approach and dedication you will be matching them stride for stride eventually.  however, if you think these paces are superhuman then you have already defeated yourself and it will never happen. 

That's just not always true, and it can lead to early burnout and feelings of failure.  The fact is, not everyone can run a 36:00 10K....in fact, very few people can.  For the majority of AG'ers, no matter how hard they work, they won't get there.  Drop it to 34:00.....a fairly avg. time for men who are truly runners....and almost none of the rest of us can get there. 

While it's true that fast running is not super human......again. it's all relative.  It's not reasonable to think that any woman who works hard can run a 36:00 10K.....no they can't.

At 59 I will never run a 36:00 10K, no matter how I train. A guy I work with is 54 and regularly runs 10K in sub 34. For him that's slow, as in his prime he was in the 28:00 range. There are several guys I've worked with who can run a sub 4:30 mile in local races, but not sustained throughout. Another ran a HM at sub 5:00 pace last year. I think the heaviest of these guys weighs maybe 125 lbs. The oldest has won several marathons throughout his career, and was once in the 2:12 range. A couple of the others are mountain runners and hold course records in several events. To think an average person can attain things like this is ludicrous. These guys were born with good genes and worked hard to maximize their talent. People can maximize their talent, but may come nowhere near what those with good genes can do. Plus few people want to do what it takes anyway, dedicating some much time to training and proper nutrition.

This is becoming a disease!

I'm only accepting the genes argument from people who have dedicated time to training and proper nutrition.  And not for six months -for years.  Until the vast majority of amateur athletes limiters are their own minds and lack of dedication.  Lack of dedication isn't a bad thing from most AG's - we've got families, jobs, friends and a social life.

I really don't know why people are so fast to talk about genes being their limiter on here - is it because it's a good excuse that's out of their hands so they don't have to face up to the fact they don't eat and train properly?

Like I said, your point is valid as far as reaching potential.  Let me ask you, do you think you can train yourself to a 4:15 mile?  A 15:00 5K?  A 32 minute 10K?  Do you think anyone can? 

Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.



2015-03-31 6:57 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by Donskiman
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Clempson

the important thing to take away from seeing people with speeds like this is realizing that you can be just as fast.  with the right approach and dedication you will be matching them stride for stride eventually.  however, if you think these paces are superhuman then you have already defeated yourself and it will never happen. 

That's just not always true, and it can lead to early burnout and feelings of failure.  The fact is, not everyone can run a 36:00 10K....in fact, very few people can.  For the majority of AG'ers, no matter how hard they work, they won't get there.  Drop it to 34:00.....a fairly avg. time for men who are truly runners....and almost none of the rest of us can get there. 

While it's true that fast running is not super human......again. it's all relative.  It's not reasonable to think that any woman who works hard can run a 36:00 10K.....no they can't.

At 59 I will never run a 36:00 10K, no matter how I train. A guy I work with is 54 and regularly runs 10K in sub 34. For him that's slow, as in his prime he was in the 28:00 range. There are several guys I've worked with who can run a sub 4:30 mile in local races, but not sustained throughout. Another ran a HM at sub 5:00 pace last year. I think the heaviest of these guys weighs maybe 125 lbs. The oldest has won several marathons throughout his career, and was once in the 2:12 range. A couple of the others are mountain runners and hold course records in several events. To think an average person can attain things like this is ludicrous. These guys were born with good genes and worked hard to maximize their talent. People can maximize their talent, but may come nowhere near what those with good genes can do. Plus few people want to do what it takes anyway, dedicating some much time to training and proper nutrition.

This is becoming a disease!

I'm only accepting the genes argument from people who have dedicated time to training and proper nutrition.  And not for six months -for years.  Until the vast majority of amateur athletes limiters are their own minds and lack of dedication.  Lack of dedication isn't a bad thing from most AG's - we've got families, jobs, friends and a social life.

I really don't know why people are so fast to talk about genes being their limiter on here - is it because it's a good excuse that's out of their hands so they don't have to face up to the fact they don't eat and train properly?

Like I said, your point is valid as far as reaching potential.  Let me ask you, do you think you can train yourself to a 4:15 mile?  A 15:00 5K?  A 32 minute 10K?  Do you think anyone can? 

Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.

I agree with that completely.

My only problem, when it comes to sport, is that many, maybe even most, people get demoralized and quit when they realize what fast really is.....and they quit.  I'd rather have them around.  I'd rather people kept that perspective you are talking about and stay with the sport.  Am I really supposed to tell a kid who runs a 19:00 5K and can't get to the district finals, much less the state finals, that if he works REALLY hard, and makes huge sacrifices, that he can run that 16:30 5k he needs just to be part of the discussion?  Well, why not tell him that he can also work even harder and run that 15:00 that will win state.  Hell, while I'm at it, I'll tell him that with work he can also run a 1:52 800, and a 4:10 mile.......all it takes is work.  Of course, when he can't, I'll have to spend all my energy just getting him to not quit.

I would rather tell him that a 19:00 5K is an amazing accomplishment, and he should be very proud of it, and work to make it part of his life....because THAT'S where the true reward comes from.

I'm not going to ever be part of the "you can do whatever you set your mind to" crowd when it comes to athletics......I'm sorry, no you can't.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  There is more honor in being the best you can be.

2015-03-31 7:08 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
I still like the advice of my first swim coach (one of the early Ironmen) who basically told us, "Work hard, and you'll surprise yourself." It was true. (Though I still haven't taken his advice to someday do an Ironman!) It's hard to know someone's true ability without several years of hard training, or how much someone is/isn't willing to put into it for results that may look modest to others. My middle school coach basically told me, "It's good you're a good student, because you'll never be much of an athlete." (Really!) No, I didn't win the Olympics, but I did win the state meet my senior year, and go on other accomplishments which have certainly enriched my life and are worth it to me. I've worked hard, and surprised myself (and, at my age, disappointed myself LOL) , and I think that's the best approach, not to fixate on time goals.

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-03-31 7:09 PM
2015-04-01 6:41 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Originally posted by brigby1
Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.




You are so right.

Everyone, without exception can improve by say 5%. When they hit that 5%, almost guaranteed there is another, and after that another.....with the right training

They will keep on going like this until they hit their genetic potential but that is not going to be for a VERY VERY long time.

Only consideration is what do you measure the 5% on. Absolute time ? No. For example at one point you need to adjust performance to age.

How you measure performance could be a whole other conversation :-)

Edited by marcag 2015-04-01 6:41 AM
2015-04-01 8:34 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by brigby1 Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.
You are so right. Everyone, without exception can improve by say 5%. When they hit that 5%, almost guaranteed there is another, and after that another.....with the right training They will keep on going like this until they hit their genetic potential but that is not going to be for a VERY VERY long time. Only consideration is what do you measure the 5% on. Absolute time ? No. For example at one point you need to adjust performance to age. How you measure performance could be a whole other conversation :-)

So, if you don't use time, how DO you measure performance?  I would agree that time doesn't have to be the absolute measure for an individual performance, but there isn't much else to measure a race.  Ultimately, that's why we have races, to see who is the fastest, no?

2015-04-01 8:53 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by brigby1 Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.
You are so right. Everyone, without exception can improve by say 5%. When they hit that 5%, almost guaranteed there is another, and after that another.....with the right training They will keep on going like this until they hit their genetic potential but that is not going to be for a VERY VERY long time. Only consideration is what do you measure the 5% on. Absolute time ? No. For example at one point you need to adjust performance to age. How you measure performance could be a whole other conversation :-)

So, if you don't use time, how DO you measure performance?  I would agree that time doesn't have to be the absolute measure for an individual performance, but there isn't much else to measure a race.  Ultimately, that's why we have races, to see who is the fastest, no?

I thought it was for the finisher's medal and adding to my never ending collection of dry fit shirts.



2015-04-01 8:58 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by brigby1 Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.
You are so right. Everyone, without exception can improve by say 5%. When they hit that 5%, almost guaranteed there is another, and after that another.....with the right training They will keep on going like this until they hit their genetic potential but that is not going to be for a VERY VERY long time. Only consideration is what do you measure the 5% on. Absolute time ? No. For example at one point you need to adjust performance to age. How you measure performance could be a whole other conversation :-)

So, if you don't use time, how DO you measure performance?  I would agree that time doesn't have to be the absolute measure for an individual performance, but there isn't much else to measure a race.  Ultimately, that's why we have races, to see who is the fastest, no?




Agree. Of course, time is the measurement within a specific race, but certainly not across different races. 2h Oly, 10h IM mean little because the courses vary so much and it should be measured across gender and age.



2015-04-01 9:02 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by brigby1 Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.
You are so right. Everyone, without exception can improve by say 5%. When they hit that 5%, almost guaranteed there is another, and after that another.....with the right training They will keep on going like this until they hit their genetic potential but that is not going to be for a VERY VERY long time. Only consideration is what do you measure the 5% on. Absolute time ? No. For example at one point you need to adjust performance to age. How you measure performance could be a whole other conversation :-)

So, if you don't use time, how DO you measure performance?  I would agree that time doesn't have to be the absolute measure for an individual performance, but there isn't much else to measure a race.  Ultimately, that's why we have races, to see who is the fastest, no?

Well, time is one thing to look at. "Who is the fastest" will have the shortest time, but that person is also first across the line. Having a time isn't always necessary. Many also just want to get there, or run the whole race without walking. They'll know the time, but it tends to be secondary to having completed the event.

2015-04-01 9:19 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by brigby1 Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.
You are so right. Everyone, without exception can improve by say 5%. When they hit that 5%, almost guaranteed there is another, and after that another.....with the right training They will keep on going like this until they hit their genetic potential but that is not going to be for a VERY VERY long time. Only consideration is what do you measure the 5% on. Absolute time ? No. For example at one point you need to adjust performance to age. How you measure performance could be a whole other conversation :-)

So, if you don't use time, how DO you measure performance?  I would agree that time doesn't have to be the absolute measure for an individual performance, but there isn't much else to measure a race.  Ultimately, that's why we have races, to see who is the fastest, no?

Well, time is one thing to look at. "Who is the fastest" will have the shortest time, but that person is also first across the line. Having a time isn't always necessary. Many also just want to get there, or run the whole race without walking. They'll know the time, but it tends to be secondary to having completed the event.

Well, yeah.....hell, I'm that guy anymore....I don't care at all about my time.  But in the end, for the people who are actually racing, there really is only time".  If the discussion is "how fast can you go", then a specific time is the only answer.....unless you ask me, then the answer will be "not very".

2015-04-01 10:49 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

It’s funny LB now I’ve read more of your posts that our view points are actually trying to achieve the same thing.  Stop people from giving up on the sport.

Yours:  You think some people give up because they can’t accept they can’t achieve what their peers can – or even their non-peers like pro athletes half their age.  They have trouble accepting they are genetically limited and go and do something else saying it was their genes that stopped them achieving anything.

Mine: People don’t bother putting their all into it - pulling the ‘genes’ card early on while continuing to train stupid (harsh but just supposed to be a contrary phrase to ‘train smart&rsquo and go and do something else saying that it was their genes that stopped them from achieving anything

I think there are professional athletes, in the Olympics that still aren’t achieving their all because they delegate the blame to something uncontrollable.

From the 8 on the start line of the 100m – 2 are pleased to be there, 2 think they could do ok, 2 think they will win and 2 know they will win.  The winner will come from one of the last two athletes.

The mind has the most significant influence over athletic performance (or performance anywhere else) and it’s the part of the body we understand least about.  New World Records and human capability achievements will not be made from improvements to training programmes, diets or compression socks.  They will come from a better understanding of the mind.  I guess my (eventual) point is blaming genes seems to be a very powerful mental limiter for lots of people on this board.  Too much time and discussion is paid to it and I think it’s holding people back.

2015-04-01 10:59 AM
in reply to: rizztalah

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Here's a way to eliminate both issues; just focus on the next step or goal, where none of this comes into debate. If you're at a 19:30 5k and your goal is to go faster, set sub-19 as a goal, not 15. Day by day, step by step. If you start anything, then compare yourself to the top of the field, you'll end up giving up. But that next incremental step, that's always available, and don't worry about the end, or debate what that end is....it's pointless. Just focus on the next goal. As humans, we are happiest when we have a goal to strive for and especially when we accomplish it. At that point, for continued happiness, set another goal. Not too far that it's not readily achievable and not too easy. That's what works for me. That wall we're debating doesn't play into that conversation, and it doesn't matter.


2015-04-01 11:04 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by Dan-L

It’s funny LB now I’ve read more of your posts that our view points are actually trying to achieve the same thing.  Stop people from giving up on the sport.

Yours:  You think some people give up because they can’t accept they can’t achieve what their peers can – or even their non-peers like pro athletes half their age.  They have trouble accepting they are genetically limited and go and do something else saying it was their genes that stopped them achieving anything.

Mine: People don’t bother putting their all into it - pulling the ‘genes’ card early on while continuing to train stupid (harsh but just supposed to be a contrary phrase to ‘train smart&rsquo and go and do something else saying that it was their genes that stopped them from achieving anything

I think there are professional athletes, in the Olympics that still aren’t achieving their all because they delegate the blame to something uncontrollable.

From the 8 on the start line of the 100m – 2 are pleased to be there, 2 think they could do ok, 2 think they will win and 2 know they will win.  The winner will come from one of the last two athletes.

The mind has the most significant influence over athletic performance (or performance anywhere else) and it’s the part of the body we understand least about.  New World Records and human capability achievements will not be made from improvements to training programmes, diets or compression socks.  They will come from a better understanding of the mind.  I guess my (eventual) point is blaming genes seems to be a very powerful mental limiter for lots of people on this board.  Too much time and discussion is paid to it and I think it’s holding people back.

That's only true once you reach the top end.

I can line you up tomorrow with 7 people in a mile race and tell every one of them they have no chance to win.......that I only want them to be happy they made it......and you are about to get your arse handed to you.

You can't make a greyhound out of a schnauzer.  You can claim that their genetics make no difference and the schnauzer is going to beat the greyhound.....but it's not.  The dog that was bred to run will win every time.  Genetics.

2015-04-01 11:26 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

I consider myself a fast runner (on a local AG level anyways).  I am only fast when I have trained hard though.  I have done races on 3 weeks of training off the couch and finished in the middle of the pack and I have done races when I have prepared for months and peaked right at race time to places in the top three over-all out of several hundred runner.  

If you have been fast once there is a lot of muscle memory and getting back into shape will bring most of that speed back.  I had a math professor in College that had been a runner in his youth then took 15-20 years off.  He was getting back into run when I was in his class and we would see each other around town when we crossed running paths.  He ran a 2 hour 49 minute marathon his first race back to running and place 13th over all and first in 45-49 age group.  When I was in his office after his marathon he said that you never lose speed just fitness and once your fitness comes back so does your speed. 

 

Oh...and I just have to say it.  Running a 7.1 mile run all out in training is not what i would call running smart.  I know that we have all done it.  There are days when we all want to see how fast we can go, but running an easy 7 mile followed by strides (i.e. 10 x 50m) is much better on the body and will actually make us faster.  Running all out for 7 miles in training just makes you sore while provide no increases in your speed and the time you lose to recover from such a run puts you further behind in your training than you were before the run.  I can run 6:45 min/mi for a full marathon, but in my training my average speed for runs in the 7 mile range is about 7:45 min/mi (and more like 8:45 min/mile for any training run over about 12 miles).  Just saying...when I race I know that I am going to take 3 weeks with no high intensity to recover, but during training I can't afford to take that much time off, so I prepare to run fast by first running slow.  :-



Edited by BlueBoy26 2015-04-01 11:35 AM
2015-04-01 11:26 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L

It’s funny LB now I’ve read more of your posts that our view points are actually trying to achieve the same thing.  Stop people from giving up on the sport.

Yours:  You think some people give up because they can’t accept they can’t achieve what their peers can – or even their non-peers like pro athletes half their age.  They have trouble accepting they are genetically limited and go and do something else saying it was their genes that stopped them achieving anything.

Mine: People don’t bother putting their all into it - pulling the ‘genes’ card early on while continuing to train stupid (harsh but just supposed to be a contrary phrase to ‘train smart’) and go and do something else saying that it was their genes that stopped them from achieving anything

I think there are professional athletes, in the Olympics that still aren’t achieving their all because they delegate the blame to something uncontrollable.

From the 8 on the start line of the 100m – 2 are pleased to be there, 2 think they could do ok, 2 think they will win and 2 know they will win.  The winner will come from one of the last two athletes.

The mind has the most significant influence over athletic performance (or performance anywhere else) and it’s the part of the body we understand least about.  New World Records and human capability achievements will not be made from improvements to training programmes, diets or compression socks.  They will come from a better understanding of the mind.  I guess my (eventual) point is blaming genes seems to be a very powerful mental limiter for lots of people on this board.  Too much time and discussion is paid to it and I think it’s holding people back.

That's only true once you reach the top end.

I can line you up tomorrow with 7 people in a mile race and tell every one of them they have no chance to win.......that I only want them to be happy they made it......and you are about to get your arse handed to you.

You can't make a greyhound out of a schnauzer.  You can claim that their genetics make no difference and the schnauzer is going to beat the greyhound.....but it's not.  The dog that was bred to run will win every time.  Genetics.




There is no disputing the legitimacy of a genetic ceiling. But how many non-pro's GENUINELY know when they have reached their genetic potential (ceiling)? I really do believe that many never make it to that point, because of several contributing factors, the least of which should ever be (IMO) because of lack of thorough and full effort in training, dietary, nutritional, supplemental focus. Starting bodybuilding at a very young age with some serious genetic limitations, taught me early on - one philosophy that has helped me through every endeavor in exercise: ALWAYS BE IMPROVING.

There's always going to be somebody bigger....faster...stronger. The question that feeds motivation, not kills it, is: Next time out, will you be bigger...faster...stronger than your "last self?" I was 17 when I first got on a bb stage and was asked the question why I started training. I responded with "Personal Satisfaction." The announcer, judges and crowd chuckled, I stood there stone serious. What gave and still gives that personal satisfaction? Performing and being bigger....faster...stronger than my "last self."

PS....that genetic ceiling comes A LOT faster in bodybuilding than in performance sports, so keep driving, keep believing that genetic ceiling is much further away than you think. Especially if you're not a pro who's been doing something his/her entire life. Chances are you're there or whole lot closer
2015-04-01 11:30 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L

It’s funny LB now I’ve read more of your posts that our view points are actually trying to achieve the same thing.  Stop people from giving up on the sport.

Yours:  You think some people give up because they can’t accept they can’t achieve what their peers can – or even their non-peers like pro athletes half their age.  They have trouble accepting they are genetically limited and go and do something else saying it was their genes that stopped them achieving anything.

Mine: People don’t bother putting their all into it - pulling the ‘genes’ card early on while continuing to train stupid (harsh but just supposed to be a contrary phrase to ‘train smart&rsquo and go and do something else saying that it was their genes that stopped them from achieving anything

I think there are professional athletes, in the Olympics that still aren’t achieving their all because they delegate the blame to something uncontrollable.

From the 8 on the start line of the 100m – 2 are pleased to be there, 2 think they could do ok, 2 think they will win and 2 know they will win.  The winner will come from one of the last two athletes.

The mind has the most significant influence over athletic performance (or performance anywhere else) and it’s the part of the body we understand least about.  New World Records and human capability achievements will not be made from improvements to training programmes, diets or compression socks.  They will come from a better understanding of the mind.  I guess my (eventual) point is blaming genes seems to be a very powerful mental limiter for lots of people on this board.  Too much time and discussion is paid to it and I think it’s holding people back.

That's only true once you reach the top end.

I can line you up tomorrow with 7 people in a mile race and tell every one of them they have no chance to win.......that I only want them to be happy they made it......and you are about to get your arse handed to you.

You can't make a greyhound out of a schnauzer.  You can claim that their genetics make no difference and the schnauzer is going to beat the greyhound.....but it's not.  The dog that was bred to run will win every time.  Genetics.

That’s a really bizarre example.

Take those 8 people when they are 8 years old and train them all with the appropriate discipline and with the same attention to consistency and detail and race them at 20.

I don’t think the difference would be as big as you say.

I have to work harder than someone with a genetic advantage over me to get the same time.  It only becomes a differentiator when everyone is training as smart as each other.  And they rarely are.

Genetics gives you a head start but not always one that can’t be overcome by someone that works harder than you.

 

2015-04-01 12:43 PM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L

It’s funny LB now I’ve read more of your posts that our view points are actually trying to achieve the same thing.  Stop people from giving up on the sport.

Yours:  You think some people give up because they can’t accept they can’t achieve what their peers can – or even their non-peers like pro athletes half their age.  They have trouble accepting they are genetically limited and go and do something else saying it was their genes that stopped them achieving anything.

Mine: People don’t bother putting their all into it - pulling the ‘genes’ card early on while continuing to train stupid (harsh but just supposed to be a contrary phrase to ‘train smart&rsquo and go and do something else saying that it was their genes that stopped them from achieving anything

I think there are professional athletes, in the Olympics that still aren’t achieving their all because they delegate the blame to something uncontrollable.

From the 8 on the start line of the 100m – 2 are pleased to be there, 2 think they could do ok, 2 think they will win and 2 know they will win.  The winner will come from one of the last two athletes.

The mind has the most significant influence over athletic performance (or performance anywhere else) and it’s the part of the body we understand least about.  New World Records and human capability achievements will not be made from improvements to training programmes, diets or compression socks.  They will come from a better understanding of the mind.  I guess my (eventual) point is blaming genes seems to be a very powerful mental limiter for lots of people on this board.  Too much time and discussion is paid to it and I think it’s holding people back.

That's only true once you reach the top end.

I can line you up tomorrow with 7 people in a mile race and tell every one of them they have no chance to win.......that I only want them to be happy they made it......and you are about to get your arse handed to you.

You can't make a greyhound out of a schnauzer.  You can claim that their genetics make no difference and the schnauzer is going to beat the greyhound.....but it's not.  The dog that was bred to run will win every time.  Genetics.

That’s a really bizarre example.

Take those 8 people when they are 8 years old and train them all with the appropriate discipline and with the same attention to consistency and detail and race them at 20.

I don’t think the difference would be as big as you say.

I have to work harder than someone with a genetic advantage over me to get the same time.  It only becomes a differentiator when everyone is training as smart as each other.  And they rarely are.

Genetics gives you a head start but not always one that can’t be overcome by someone that works harder than you.

 

And that is probably where you and I fall away from each other in our experiences.  I do get to see kids from a very young age ALL work exactly the same at my kid's swim club.  They all start equal.  They all do the exact same work.  After about 3 or 4 years (by the time they are 11-12) there are clear lines regarding who is more suited to swimming.  By the time they are young men you can very easily identify who's who.  Some can make district cuts, some can make sectional cuts, some can make national cuts, and a few are swimming Olympic qualifier cuts.  Same workouts each day for all these years.....nowhere near the same outcome.

Genetics.

Go ahead and get 50 triathletes of the same age and train exactly the same for as long as you want, go a very very long time as marc suggests it takes to get to the bottom of your genetic potential.......your results will be nowhere near the same.

Genetics.

As I have said, your points are valid regarding the work people do.  And as you say, we both would like to see less burnout and more long term triathletes in the sport.  But when you strip all of the fluff away.......it's genetics that make all the difference, and always will.  You can control every other aspect of development between people.....but their different genetic makeup is what will ultimately separate them.



2015-04-01 1:35 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
I think the bottom line is that MANY of us who start endurance sports later in life have the potential to improve a lot more than we think they can with hard work.

However, that doesn't mean that anyone can get as fast as they want simply by picking a number, or that the only thing limiting everyone is their own thinking.

I'd love to think I could run a sub-40-min 10K just by committing myself to it, but I know that with all the hard work in the world I am not going to get there. Does that mean I am artificially limiting myself with my mind? No, it just means I'm being reasonable.
2015-04-01 3:21 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Hmmmm...

My question is less how much genetics have to do with being the absolute fastest person in the race, especially in a race with a crazy field (rather than the neighborhood championships beer mile - although I'm training hard for that), and more about how genetics affects the rate of improvement.

So, prescinding from the question of whether genetics limit who the fastest athlete is (which doesn't affect me much, frankly, given my current life goals), I'm wondering if there are genetic differences that determine how quickly one can move to the next targeted, incremental improvement (which, though it won't change MY pace of improvement, is more interesting to me).

Illustrative example (and maybe a poor one, but here goes):  Take a group of 50' 10k runners that have similar backgrounds in the sport (assume fairly new to running, all the same age and sex).  Then have them all train the same way whilst trying to get to a target of 48' (these times are made up with no particular reason for 50' vs. 55' or whatever).

Is it genetics that determines who gets to 48' first? 

It would be facile to assume that whomever arrives first should also have the highest potential, but biology being biology, I'd bet there are slightly different genetics between improvement from couch to finishing to locally fast to locally winning to nationally fast, etc. and the rate of improvement attainable.  Maybe they converge at the pointiest end?

Just curious...  Anyone seen data on something like this?

Matt

2015-04-01 3:40 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5Take a group of 50' 10k runners that have similar backgrounds in the sport (assume fairly new to running, all the same age and sex).  Then have them all train the same way whilst trying to get to a target of 48' (these times are made up with no particular reason for 50' vs. 55' or whatever).

Is it genetics that determines who gets to 48' first? 

It would be facile to assume that whomever arrives first should also have the highest potential, but biology being biology, I'd bet there are slightly different genetics between improvement from couch to finishing to locally fast to locally winning to nationally fast, etc. and the rate of improvement attainable.  Maybe they converge at the pointiest end?

Just curious...  Anyone seen data on something like this?

Matt




It depends-- if all of those people are 50-minute 10K runners with no training (i.e., that's their baseline potential), then that IS a reflection of their genetics right there..

Although the younger you are the faster you recover and the more hard training you can do. There will be a genetic difference in recovery/training potential as well. So different people will be able to improve at different rates depending on their biology.
2015-04-01 4:14 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by brigby1 Think the perspective most are looking from here is relative as opposed to absolute values to achieve. Such as can a 35:00 5k runner get to 30? 25? 20? Pick a number fast enough and no, not just anyone can. It's not that the genetic factor doesn't exist, but it can be used as an excuse too often to not really try. Various training programs can make a substantial difference (as you well know), so it's really more to stop focusing on things out of one's control and really take charge of things they can do something about.
You are so right. Everyone, without exception can improve by say 5%. When they hit that 5%, almost guaranteed there is another, and after that another.....with the right training They will keep on going like this until they hit their genetic potential but that is not going to be for a VERY VERY long time. Only consideration is what do you measure the 5% on. Absolute time ? No. For example at one point you need to adjust performance to age. How you measure performance could be a whole other conversation :-)

So, if you don't use time, how DO you measure performance?  I would agree that time doesn't have to be the absolute measure for an individual performance, but there isn't much else to measure a race.  Ultimately, that's why we have races, to see who is the fastest, no?




How do I ultimately measure performance. . . . personal satisfaction. Of course, that personal satisfaction comes from how quick I've done it. . . so crap. . . I don't think I answered your question.

I think another thing worth keeping in mind as triathletes. . . we'll never hit our best potential times b/c we are splitting our time. If you ultimately want to run as fast as your potential will allow, you'll need to cut out that swim and bike to get there.
2015-04-01 5:50 PM
in reply to: #5104596

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
How do you tie this to sprinters vs distance people? I am a sprinter (50 free specialist in college). My husband can slog forever and never gets tired (did Eco challenge years ago and it was his perfect event- Boston qualified in his first marathon - but not a very fast 5k runner).

I can out sprint him even though he is in way better shape than me and trains a ton more.

That's got to be genetics. (And I am completely fascinated to see where our daughter leans).


2015-04-01 6:07 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Originally posted by Moonrocket

How do you tie this to sprinters vs distance people? I am a sprinter (50 free specialist in college). My husband can slog forever and never gets tired (did Eco challenge years ago and it was his perfect event- Boston qualified in his first marathon - but not a very fast 5k runner).

I can out sprint him even though he is in way better shape than me and trains a ton more.

That's got to be genetics. (And I am completely fascinated to see where our daughter leans).


"Genetics" covers a lot of things. There is no such things as a "fast gene"

There are things we inherit directly and there are things we are pre-disposed to.

For example, whether we are predominantly slowtwitch or fast twitch muscle fibre is kind of dealt to us. However our VO2max is something we inherit a potential for but we have to develop it. We can inherit neuromuscular efficiency but we can also develop it.

There is a company in Australia that actually does DNA testing to provide insight to coaches of what an athletes predisposition is. I heard an interview with their CEO recently. For example they can test VO2max potential, risk of injury (for example ligaments), endurance vs power potential,, metabolic characteristics, etc.

Their model is to give these results to coaches so they can direct training in the right direction. Training probably plays the biggest role in where we end up. You see an athlete struggle under coach A but thrive under coach B. The same athlete with the same gene pool. If you can zero in on heir strengths and limitations, you can achieve great results.

So yes, we have inherited tendencies, some stronger than others, but environment, training, attitude of the athlete play a huge role in what we become.

You may be fasttwitch with a natural anaerobic capacity. He may be slowtwitch with more of an aerobic engine.



Edited by marcag 2015-04-01 6:08 PM
2015-04-01 7:12 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
I use a rope to tie myself after other runners.
2015-04-01 9:02 PM
in reply to: Antoine tri

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?

Originally posted by Antoine tri I use a rope to tie myself to other runners 

A DNA strand?

2015-04-02 12:13 AM
in reply to: #5105443

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Subject: RE: How do you run so damn fast!!?
Ok... So, how do you know if you've reached your absolute potential?

Personally, I'm always making the mistake by looking at elite times and then my own and being instantly disheartened. I like the suggestion of making a smaller closer goal, but what if even that isn't realistic? Last year was my first year ever doing triathlons... I did 5 total. 4 sprints and 1 oly. I gained top 10 women overall in everyone, podiumed in my age group 25-29 in everyone. I saw that as a sign, "hey, I could probably be good at this!?"

Now, I have a coach training me but my practice/training sessions are still showing me similar times.... This is leaving me a little disheartened. My fastest 5k this far has been 23 flat... But my goal is 20 flat. Is that unrealistic? I hit 20k flat in high school cross country, but then the season ended so I wonder if I could have gotten better

And currently my 10k is 47... But my goal is 43. Mind you, I'm the hot headed little dwarf from LOTR so sometimes I also feel convinced I can't achieve these simply because I'm not a tall, thin, elf. D:
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