General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim Video Rss Feed  
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2015-03-30 9:26 AM

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Subject: Swim Video
Since I consider correcting swim technique "free speed" much akin to buying new wheels for a bike, I've been working quite a bit on my form the last couple of months. Nothing specific, just making sure I'm concentrating on my stroke from start to finish every workout. I hadn't taken any video in a while so I took my camera this morning. The link below is two 50's (meters) the first zone 3, the second zone 2. I would love to hear any critiques as I know we have some pretty ridiculous swimmers on here. Don't mind the camera work, I realize it's a bit shaky.

Although swimming is my strongest sport, I have been able to make some pretty big strides with moderate stroke improvements, so I'm hoping there are still some things I can change to get a bit more "free speed".

https://youtu.be/K6sKzHYBIS0

PS...don't mind the tan lines, I've been putting in a lot of miles on the bike.


2015-03-30 9:32 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Maryland
Subject: RE: Swim Video

first take off your watch :P

 

2015-03-30 9:39 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Ridgeland, Mississippi
Subject: RE: Swim Video

Your lower half of your body is under water the whole time.  Also it doesn't look like you bend your elbow much in your pull.  

2015-03-30 9:39 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by dmiller5

first take off your watch :P

 




Ummm...does a workout even exist if you don't record it?? How else would I have data to obsess over afterward? That's just crazy talk.
2015-03-30 9:41 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by msteiner

Your lower half of your body is under water the whole time.  Also it doesn't look like you bend your elbow much in your pull.  




I sink like a rock. It's all I can do to keep myself up that high. So, more kicking?
2015-03-30 9:42 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Swim Video

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by dmiller5

first take off your watch :P

 

Ummm...does a workout even exist if you don't record it?? How else would I have data to obsess over afterward? That's just crazy talk.

Have you ever seen a real swimmer with a watch? You aren't recording it accurately anyways.  The only thing watches do is hit other swimmers in the wrist.

I would also say in the first 50 it looks like you are punching the water and bringing down a ton of bubbles.  Maybe try being less forceful, and more guiding/pushing your hand forward as opposed to trying to murder the water with each stroke.



2015-03-30 9:43 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Swim Video

I'm generally pretty bad at offering stroke advice but what the heck.  

First, you obviously have the technique and power to be pretty fast, the first 50 is ~:32s which would be a pretty strong effort for me.  The big thing I see is you need a little more extension before you start your pull and need to get your elbows up on the catch.  Take a look at the screenshot below, your hand is almost at the bottom and you aren't pushing water straight back yet.

 





(3mar-swim.jpg)



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3mar-swim.jpg (50KB - 0 downloads)
2015-03-30 9:46 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Swim Video

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by msteiner

Your lower half of your body is under water the whole time.  Also it doesn't look like you bend your elbow much in your pull.  

I sink like a rock. It's all I can do to keep myself up that high. So, more kicking?

Kicking to compensate for body position will only make you more tired.  I was told to focus on pushing your chest down to raise your lower body.

When I used to swim at my local masters I was told to do this drill a ton:
http://www.portsideathletics.com/2013/06/swimming-drill-series-2-6-beat-kick.html

It seemed to help with my position a good bit.  Plenty of free speed from raising your lower body alone.

2015-03-30 9:48 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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1502
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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by axteraa

I'm generally pretty bad at offering stroke advice but what the heck.  

First, you obviously have the technique and power to be pretty fast, the first 50 is ~:32s which would be a pretty strong effort for me.  The big thing I see is you need a little more extension before you start your pull and need to get your elbows up on the catch.  Take a look at the screenshot below, your hand is almost at the bottom and you aren't pushing water straight back yet.

 




Thanks. What you see there is actually a big improvement to what it was. I used to have my hand tucked under my body at that point, constantly crossing the center line. As I sit here at my computer, I'm trying to mimic what you're recommending. Certainly feels different. Any drills you recommend?
2015-03-30 9:50 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Ridgeland, Mississippi
Subject: RE: Swim Video

Originally posted by axteraa

I'm generally pretty bad at offering stroke advice but what the heck.  

First, you obviously have the technique and power to be pretty fast, the first 50 is ~:32s which would be a pretty strong effort for me.  The big thing I see is you need a little more extension before you start your pull and need to get your elbows up on the catch.  Take a look at the screenshot below, your hand is almost at the bottom and you aren't pushing water straight back yet.

 

I have swam a 1:04 100 SCY with open turns, but my PR in 1500 is only 23:46.  Inefficiencies in swim stroke don't really show up until the swim gets longer.  

2015-03-30 9:51 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Ridgeland, Mississippi
Subject: RE: Swim Video

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by axteraa

I'm generally pretty bad at offering stroke advice but what the heck.  

First, you obviously have the technique and power to be pretty fast, the first 50 is ~:32s which would be a pretty strong effort for me.  The big thing I see is you need a little more extension before you start your pull and need to get your elbows up on the catch.  Take a look at the screenshot below, your hand is almost at the bottom and you aren't pushing water straight back yet.

 

Thanks. What you see there is actually a big improvement to what it was. I used to have my hand tucked under my body at that point, constantly crossing the center line. As I sit here at my computer, I'm trying to mimic what you're recommending. Certainly feels different. Any drills you recommend?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0onbhg7qYYU



2015-03-30 9:53 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Swim Video

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by axteraa

I'm generally pretty bad at offering stroke advice but what the heck.  

First, you obviously have the technique and power to be pretty fast, the first 50 is ~:32s which would be a pretty strong effort for me.  The big thing I see is you need a little more extension before you start your pull and need to get your elbows up on the catch.  Take a look at the screenshot below, your hand is almost at the bottom and you aren't pushing water straight back yet.

 

Thanks. What you see there is actually a big improvement to what it was. I used to have my hand tucked under my body at that point, constantly crossing the center line. As I sit here at my computer, I'm trying to mimic what you're recommending. Certainly feels different. Any drills you recommend?

if you watch the video, you will see yourself doing what you describe with your hand under your body a few times.  If that's what you used to always do then good work on fixing it, just need to get rid of it completely.  

To focus on my high elbow, I do the catch up drill so I can really isolate one arm and watch what I'm doing.  I try not to do it often though as I think it can mess with the timing of other things if you do it too much.  Other than that, I got nothing - I can tell you what's wrong, just not how to fix it.  

2015-03-30 9:53 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by msteiner

Your lower half of your body is under water the whole time.  Also it doesn't look like you bend your elbow much in your pull.  

I sink like a rock. It's all I can do to keep myself up that high. So, more kicking?

Kicking to compensate for body position will only make you more tired.  I was told to focus on pushing your chest down to raise your lower body.

When I used to swim at my local masters I was told to do this drill a ton:
http://www.portsideathletics.com/2013/06/swimming-drill-series-2-6-beat-kick.html

It seemed to help with my position a good bit.  Plenty of free speed from raising your lower body alone.




I hadn't heard of that one before. Of course I know of about 4 drills total. I'll try that. Thanks.
2015-03-30 10:06 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by axteraa

I'm generally pretty bad at offering stroke advice but what the heck.  

First, you obviously have the technique and power to be pretty fast, the first 50 is ~:32s which would be a pretty strong effort for me.  The big thing I see is you need a little more extension before you start your pull and need to get your elbows up on the catch.  Take a look at the screenshot below, your hand is almost at the bottom and you aren't pushing water straight back yet.

 

Thanks. What you see there is actually a big improvement to what it was. I used to have my hand tucked under my body at that point, constantly crossing the center line. As I sit here at my computer, I'm trying to mimic what you're recommending. Certainly feels different. Any drills you recommend?

if you watch the video, you will see yourself doing what you describe with your hand under your body a few times.  If that's what you used to always do then good work on fixing it, just need to get rid of it completely.  

To focus on my high elbow, I do the catch up drill so I can really isolate one arm and watch what I'm doing.  I try not to do it often though as I think it can mess with the timing of other things if you do it too much.  Other than that, I got nothing - I can tell you what's wrong, just not how to fix it.  




It's a work in progress, that's for sure. It used to be A LOT worse...



(Capture2.JPG)



(Capture.JPG)



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Capture.JPG (77KB - 0 downloads)
2015-03-30 10:11 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Swim Video

By not forming the catch early, you end up pressing down on the water for the first 3rd of your stroke...that will drop your hips some.  The only other thing I saw was your head position...you have it cocked up quite a bit...that will drop your hips too. 

2015-03-30 10:14 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by axteraa

I'm generally pretty bad at offering stroke advice but what the heck.  

First, you obviously have the technique and power to be pretty fast, the first 50 is ~:32s which would be a pretty strong effort for me.  The big thing I see is you need a little more extension before you start your pull and need to get your elbows up on the catch.  Take a look at the screenshot below, your hand is almost at the bottom and you aren't pushing water straight back yet.

 

I have swam a 1:04 100 SCY with open turns, but my PR in 1500 is only 23:46.  Inefficiencies in swim stroke don't really show up until the swim gets longer.  




The funny thing is I tend to do better at longer distances, or at least I think I do. The last time I did any time trail in a SCY pool (this video is in a SCM pool) i managed around a 58 (I did the 100 right after a 50 so I was a bit tired). Around the same time I did a 1,500m swim at around 20:40 if memory serves, which on most sliding scales appears harder than the 58-100yd by a bit. So it could be that at the longer distances I'm slowing down enough to concentrate on my stroke more....or maybe I'm more slow twitch and overcome the non-efficiencies.


2015-03-30 10:17 AM
in reply to: JoelO

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by JoelO

By not forming the catch early, you end up pressing down on the water for the first 3rd of your stroke...that will drop your hips some.  The only other thing I saw was your head position...you have it cocked up quite a bit...that will drop your hips too. 




I've actually been struggling with that a bit lately. For some reason I have been swallowing a lot of air during swims. If I have a swim/run brick I end up having really bad cramping. I'm okay if I go to the bike first, as it give my stomach time to settle. It's been causing me to try to overcompensate with a different head position. I'm still not comfortable though.
2015-03-30 2:59 PM
in reply to: 3mar


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Subject: RE: Swim Video

Not going to comment on the technique at all, but just wanted to add - 

If anyone thinks that swimming sub 1:20 pace (your pace) is all technique and not so much fitness, I'd like to see them try and hold your turnover rate for that distance. That's a big component of swim fitness (talent helps) for sure!

 

2015-03-30 3:10 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Work on your catch - you are giving away a great deal of speed due to the catch.

Also, get a band (old inner tube) tie your ankles together and start with 8x25 band on 60s. Once you can do 25 without being totally exhausted and close to your non-band speed, then try some 50s. This will bring the legs up.

Also, to bring the legs up, someone (Fred maybe) posted a silly swim video a few years ago. The video is silly but has some great points about what you're trying to do to keep your lower body up while swimming.

Shane
2015-03-30 4:01 PM
in reply to: #5104651

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, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Swim Video
I Found that when my eyes are up like yours I tend to sink in the back. I try to keep my head down. Almost looking at the line directly below my belly button. I am 3 seconds faster when I focus on that.
2015-03-30 6:10 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Also, to bring the legs up, someone (Fred maybe) posted a silly swim video a few years ago. The video is silly but has some great points about what you're trying to do to keep your lower body up while swimming.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ&feature=youtube_gdata_pl...


2015-03-30 6:13 PM
in reply to: 0

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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: Swim Video
I have had the lifeguard who works with the college swim team watch me few times and I have shared in some of these issues. My form is far from perfect, epecially when I try to start swimming even faster intervals, but self-checking where my chin is helps me correct spinal position that leads to hip drop, and I occasionally throw in a fisted catch to remind myself to focus on forearm and elbow position to correct diminishing technique. Thoughts?

Originally posted by yazmaster

Not going to comment on the technique at all, but just wanted to add - 

If anyone thinks that swimming sub 1:20 pace (your pace) is all technique and not so much fitness, I'd like to see them try and hold your turnover rate for that distance. That's a big component of swim fitness (talent helps) for sure!

 




Definitely a case for me, whence the muscular endurance starts to wain, things start to look like a washing machine

Edited by TJHammer 2015-03-30 6:14 PM
2015-03-30 6:18 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Also, to bring the legs up, someone (Fred maybe) posted a silly swim video a few years ago. The video is silly but has some great points about what you're trying to do to keep your lower body up while swimming.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ&feature=youtube_gdata_pl...


Awesome! That's the one!

Shane
2015-03-30 8:54 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Swim Video

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by gsmacleod Also, to bring the legs up, someone (Fred maybe) posted a silly swim video a few years ago. The video is silly but has some great points about what you're trying to do to keep your lower body up while swimming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ&feature=youtube_gdat...
Awesome! That's the one! Shane

Yes! Thank you! I wanted to show bits of it at a coaching clinic but couldn't find it.

Pay especial attention to the part where the muscular guy is in a hugging-his-knees tuck and manages to straighten out fully in the water. YES, THIS IS POSSIBLE for nearly anyone.

I'm not a fan of "drills" (better to build what's right than fix what's wrong, and drills are specific tools that are unfortunately usually applied generally. Kind of like using a hammer for everything). However, trying to do what that guy did and then being able to hold that position stationary is great. Streamlines on land (like Superman pose on your stomach) can help put it in your head and body memory.

I've posted this before as well but in terms of putting shape and feel of an early high-elbow catch (early vertical forearm) together, try this in the photo. It will feel awkward, but you'll need to extend your arm and shoulder to do it, and it keeps your elbow high (black arrows). the pressure you put on the pool wall mimics the pressure you want to feel on your palm and forearm.





(PressPoolEdgeFeel.jpg)



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PressPoolEdgeFeel.jpg (93KB - 0 downloads)
2015-03-31 8:00 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Swim Video
Originally posted by yazmaster

Not going to comment on the technique at all, but just wanted to add - 

If anyone thinks that swimming sub 1:20 pace (your pace) is all technique and not so much fitness, I'd like to see them try and hold your turnover rate for that distance. That's a big component of swim fitness (talent helps) for sure!

 




I am in no way qualified to comment on someone's technique, but I noticed that, too. That is one heck of a turnover rate. That is actually what I have started working on after focusing on form for the last few months. It takes a lot of cardio to do that.
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