General Discussion Triathlon Talk » training by HR Rss Feed  
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2015-05-23 11:38 AM


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Suwanee, Georgia
Subject: training by HR

Ok. so i just got a brandy new GPS watch with heart rate for my anniversary from my wonderful wife, and i'm now a month in training with it. I'm confused at zones and my heart rate while running. I can't seem to really stay in zone 3 when running at a reasonable pace. It really feels like more of a fast walk is what it would take.

I'm not a fast runner by any means, but if i try to keep my HR below 160, i'm pulling 10:30+ min/miles. Does this improve over time?

 

What does a guy do? i'm easily able to keep my HR below 140 on the bike and still average ~20 mph over 56 miles, so I am not really sure it's that i'm *that* out of shape. Maybe I am though.

 

I'm not short of breath, I don't feel like i'm sprinting, or dying, running uncomfortably fast, or anything like that, but it's obvious i'm running my heart rate up higher than is advisable for longer runs. At Chat 70.3 last weekend i kept having to pull up and walk to stop my heart rate from creeping into the 170's, and I was barely breaking the 10minute/mile barrier.

What is a good target heart rate when running a longer distance race? or maybe what zone should i try to stay in?

Thanks in advance.

 EDIT... didn't see the post and discussion on this before I posted. apologies.



Edited by ctowne 2015-05-23 11:41 AM


2015-05-24 2:51 PM
in reply to: #5117660

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Subject: RE: training by HR
There have got to be other posts on this but if you didn't find them it may have been a while.

To train by heart rate first you need to determine your zones. It's different for everyone and there are a lot of different ways to do this. the simplest way (imo) is to look at your last all out race effort which will give you your max. Then pick a formula you like and make your zones. Plenty of folks/coaches will probably comment with their opinions on good formulas. They may also suggest more expensive methods to find your zones.

Once you have your zones off you go. It takes some time to train your body to run easy in hr1. Have faith. Enjoy the rest. For me I live for those workouts that say Hr1. Just like my favorite part of s swimming workout is: take 100 easy. Going easy lets me push harder when it's time to go harder. Hr3 should be a pretty good continuous effort - like tempo run.

Happy training!
2015-05-24 10:49 PM
in reply to: ctowne


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Subject: RE: training by HR
Honestly. . .

Put the heart rate strap in the desk drawer, pull the pace up on that fancy GPS watch of yours, and run by pace and effort. You'll figure out soon enough what pace is comfortable and what pace is not. If you go out and do a couple 5K's, you'll have an even better idea of what your paces should look like. HR data is a good secondary data set, but IMO, that's all it is.

If it hasn't been said already. . . your HR on the bike will be VASTLY different than your HR on the run.

2015-05-24 11:55 PM
in reply to: ctowne

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Subject: RE: training by HR

Originally posted by ctowne

Ok. so i just got a brandy new GPS watch with heart rate for my anniversary from my wonderful wife, and i'm now a month in training with it. I'm confused at zones and my heart rate while running. I can't seem to really stay in zone 3 when running at a reasonable pace. It really feels like more of a fast walk is what it would take.

I'm not a fast runner by any means, but if i try to keep my HR below 160, i'm pulling 10:30+ min/miles. Does this improve over time?

 What does a guy do? i'm easily able to keep my HR below 140 on the bike and still average ~20 mph over 56 miles, so I am not really sure it's that i'm *that* out of shape. Maybe I am though.

 I'm not short of breath, I don't feel like i'm sprinting, or dying, running uncomfortably fast, or anything like that, but it's obvious i'm running my heart rate up higher than is advisable for longer runs. At Chat 70.3 last weekend i kept having to pull up and walk to stop my heart rate from creeping into the 170's, and I was barely breaking the 10minute/mile barrier.

What is a good target heart rate when running a longer distance race? or maybe what zone should i try to stay in?

Thanks in advance.

 EDIT... didn't see the post and discussion on this before I posted. apologies.

How did you establish any of the HR zones?

2015-05-25 12:50 AM
in reply to: ctowne

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Post Falls, Idaho
Subject: RE: training by HR
Originally posted by ctowne

I can't seem to really stay in zone 3...
if i try to keep my HR below 160, i'm pulling 10:30+ min/miles...
Does this improve over time?


How long have you been run training and what's your typical weekly volume?

It sounds like a straight up fitness issue and if so it will certainly improve over time with overall volume increase through a combination of long runs and interval training.

I had a similar issue when I came back to running after a long break. The aerobic system and heart volume all must develop over time to meet the demands you are putting on them, in the meantime all your heart can do is pump a lot faster to try to make up the difference.

Make sure you're using accurate values for your zones by identifying a good baseline like LT, AT, VO2max through the best testing you can reasonably obtain and not based on some silly calculation or wild estimate of max heart rate. Even a free self-administered test can get you some pretty accurate numbers. Look to follow testing protocols of some of the big names like Friel, Daniels, etc. Then set your zones from that data and according to their systems. It will probably work best to pick and stick to using a single author's system/philosophy so that terminology and zone mapping doesn't get confused, as there are various approaches and sometimes the terms and zones don't match up. Update your testing as required based on fitness changes.

Also, (and I know this can be hard when the paces seem really slow, but...) if you're supposed to do a long easy run, don't worry about pace, that's not the point . Pushing the pace in these situations might help your pride but it isn't necessarily helping your long term improvement any more than running at the actual assigned effort. On your interval days you can pump up your pride again by running fast with an actual purpose

As you gain run fitness your heart rates will start to make more sense and align more reliably with specific paces.
2015-05-25 9:17 AM
in reply to: ctowne

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Kenmore, Washington
Subject: RE: training by HR
First, make sure you are using heart rate zones based on your own measured resting and max HR. Use this calculator and look at the middle column:
http://www.digifit.com/heartratezones/training-zones.asp

Second, stick to the plan and be consistent. As your fitness improves you will find you get faster at the same HR.

I was in your shoes when I started running. It didn't matter how slow I went since my HR would hit zone 3 if I ran in place. 10min/mile put me into zone 4 at 165bpm. Five years later that same 10 min/mile pace takes 120bpm. I have to run 9min/mile to get into zone 2.


2015-05-25 9:48 AM
in reply to: pnwdan

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Subject: RE: training by HR
Originally posted by pnwdan

First, make sure you are using heart rate zones based on your own measured resting and max HR. Use this calculator and look at the middle column:
http://www.digifit.com/heartratezones/training-zones.asp

Second, stick to the plan and be consistent. As your fitness improves you will find you get faster at the same HR.

I was in your shoes when I started running. It didn't matter how slow I went since my HR would hit zone 3 if I ran in place. 10min/mile put me into zone 4 at 165bpm. Five years later that same 10 min/mile pace takes 120bpm. I have to run 9min/mile to get into zone 2.


Totally disagree with that site. Anything with max HR should be tossed out. Just for the heck of it, I entered my "max HR" (~saw 186 in a race at the final push), and it says my LTHR is 158. Well considering I did a HM at 174 for 1.5 hours, something is a little off... (and by a little, I mean by almost 20 bpm!)

There a great HR page on this site but I can't find it. Basically do a 30 minute all out test. Take the average of the last 20 minutes and this is your LTHR (or close to it). Then pop the number into your HR manager here and you're set.
2015-05-25 3:11 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: training by HR
Originally posted by Blastman

Originally posted by pnwdan

First, make sure you are using heart rate zones based on your own measured resting and max HR. Use this calculator and look at the middle column:
http://www.digifit.com/heartratezones/training-zones.asp

Second, stick to the plan and be consistent. As your fitness improves you will find you get faster at the same HR.

I was in your shoes when I started running. It didn't matter how slow I went since my HR would hit zone 3 if I ran in place. 10min/mile put me into zone 4 at 165bpm. Five years later that same 10 min/mile pace takes 120bpm. I have to run 9min/mile to get into zone 2.


Totally disagree with that site. Anything with max HR should be tossed out. Just for the heck of it, I entered my "max HR" (~saw 186 in a race at the final push), and it says my LTHR is 158. Well considering I did a HM at 174 for 1.5 hours, something is a little off... (and by a little, I mean by almost 20 bpm!)

There a great HR page on this site but I can't find it. Basically do a 30 minute all out test. Take the average of the last 20 minutes and this is your LTHR (or close to it). Then pop the number into your HR manager here and you're set.


Here's the test: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=...

BTW, this is really easy to do in Strava if you didn't happen to hit the lap button. Just highlight a 20 minute stretch in the HR graph, and it'll give you your max and avg HR for that period.


Edited by dfroelich 2015-05-25 3:36 PM
2015-05-26 9:36 AM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: training by HR

Originally posted by dfroelich
Here's the test: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=... BTW, this is really easy to do in Strava if you didn't happen to hit the lap button. Just highlight a 20 minute stretch in the HR graph, and it'll give you your max and avg HR for that period.
^^ Read the article linked above. 

After doing the test, use the BT HR calculator to find your zones for the Lactate Threshold method from the test HR average.  The calculator is kind of buried, go to your profile on the upper right, click settings, then training log settings, then HR Zone manager and select 'Add new HR zone'.

2015-05-26 10:19 AM
in reply to: ctowne

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Subject: RE: training by HR
I used this calculator but pretty consistent with others:

http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training-sessions/zone-calculator/

It is amazing what the process of aging does to your #'s.
2015-05-26 10:25 AM
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Subject: RE: training by HR

dp



Edited by RedCorvette 2015-05-26 10:28 AM


2015-05-26 10:27 AM
in reply to: 0

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Sarasota, FL
Subject: RE: training by HR

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25733&page=1#

 

This is a good starting point to learn about HR training.

Mark



Edited by RedCorvette 2015-05-26 10:27 AM
2015-05-26 10:38 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: training by HR

Originally posted by Oysterboy I used this calculator but pretty consistent with others: http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training-sessions/zone-calculator/It is amazing what the process of aging does to your #'s.
Not to be nit-picky but that's bike specific and for the run results in slightly lower HR zones.  There are slightly different percentages used for LT Biking and LT Running zones.

2015-05-31 11:36 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Kenmore, Washington
Subject: RE: training by HR
Originally posted by Blastman

Originally posted by pnwdan

First, make sure you are using heart rate zones based on your own measured resting and max HR. Use this calculator and look at the middle column:
http://www.digifit.com/heartratezones/training-zones.asp

Second, stick to the plan and be consistent. As your fitness improves you will find you get faster at the same HR.

I was in your shoes when I started running. It didn't matter how slow I went since my HR would hit zone 3 if I ran in place. 10min/mile put me into zone 4 at 165bpm. Five years later that same 10 min/mile pace takes 120bpm. I have to run 9min/mile to get into zone 2.


Totally disagree with that site. Anything with max HR should be tossed out. Just for the heck of it, I entered my "max HR" (~saw 186 in a race at the final push), and it says my LTHR is 158. Well considering I did a HM at 174 for 1.5 hours, something is a little off... (and by a little, I mean by almost 20 bpm!)

There a great HR page on this site but I can't find it. Basically do a 30 minute all out test. Take the average of the last 20 minutes and this is your LTHR (or close to it). Then pop the number into your HR manager here and you're set.


I totally disagree with your post. Anything without max HR should be tossed out.

I specifically wrote to look at the middle column, which is the Karvonen modified method of calculating zones. Hey but if you want to totally disagree with the Joe Friel method of calculating LTHR (85% of Max HR), then by all means, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

2015-05-31 1:23 PM
in reply to: pnwdan

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Subject: RE: training by HR
Originally posted by pnwdan

Anything without max HR should be tossed out.

I specifically wrote to look at the middle column, which is the Karvonen modified method of calculating zones. Hey but if you want to totally disagree with the Joe Friel method of calculating LTHR (85% of Max HR), then by all means, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.




are you saying that you should use maxhr over lthr ?
2015-06-01 11:23 AM
in reply to: pnwdan

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Subject: RE: training by HR

 

Originally posted by pnwdan

I totally disagree with your post. Anything without max HR should be tossed out. I specifically wrote to look at the middle column, which is the Karvonen modified method of calculating zones. Hey but if you want to totally disagree with the Joe Friel method of calculating LTHR (85% of Max HR), then by all means, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

No offense but this has been discussed on this forum for many many many many (you get the point) years and anything with max HR and Age weighting, should be discarded.  It may work for you but does not mean it works for the whole. Every single one of those formula's in that link previously provided has me undertraining on the run compared to the LTHR field test method. 



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