General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed Rss Feed  
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2015-05-29 11:42 PM

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Subject: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
I've been racing a while and would classify myself a top thirder (top 3 rarely, too third in age group mostly). A buddies if mine who was a pro rider at one point in the 80s and 90s gave me his key workouts buy I am curious to find out what you ate doing. I did average 40 k/HR for one race many years ago but have never reached that speed since. Age aside, what are your core workouts that bring you to your edge?


2015-05-30 7:06 AM
in reply to: MUSKOKAFIVEOH

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Warm up

2x20min @95-100% with 2 min recovery in between sets.

2015-05-30 7:21 AM
in reply to: MUSKOKAFIVEOH

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
5x5's, 3-4x10's, 3-4x15's, 2x20's, 1x40, 1x60, 15x1

Ride a lot, and ride hard a lot of that lot.
2015-05-30 10:28 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Listen to these dudes. I was killing myself with T.I.T.S., and it wasn't a waste, but it (alone) didn't make me faster. Then this last winter I started beating myself to a pulp doing sets like listed above through sufferfest videos. My first race of the season saw a couple of mph+ faster than last season. And I held back! I'm still not fast, but at least that trend line is headed the right direction!

Edited by Danno77 2015-05-30 10:29 AM
2015-05-30 10:50 AM
in reply to: MUSKOKAFIVEOH

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Agree with Interval work at high power. Sets at 95% of your FTP for 2, 3 5 minutes with a little recovery in between etc. That's why many get a power meter. I did a lot of interval work on the trainer last winter so I used virtual power (KK Road machine power curve). I recently joined a cycling team (club member for starters) so I try and hang with the racers on group rides. This will help me ride hard throughout the week etc.
2015-05-30 2:23 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Originally posted by Leegoocrap

5x5's, 3-4x10's, 3-4x15's, 2x20's, 1x40, 1x60, 15x1

Ride a lot, and ride hard a lot of that lot.


Can we get this translated to noob?


2015-05-30 2:31 PM
in reply to: #5119082

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
First number is reps. Second number is seconds. Minimal rest between sets. Effort on sets is whatever makes you bleed from the lungs, eyes, or bowels. Repeat workouts as often as possible
2015-05-30 2:41 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
1st number is no. of reps (repetitions)
2nd number is minutes of HARD work

(not written is a period of time to recover - in between these reps you will need to ride at an effort that allows you get your heart rate down to a level that permits you to complete the next reps...

ex ''5x5's'' in the suggested workouts given above is 5 repetitions of 5 minutes of HARD effort
Between each 5 minute effort, you will need to reduce effort so that the remaining reps can be completed

Leegoocrap succinctly posted ''Ride a lot, and ride hard a lot of that lot.''


ps T.I.T.S. is short for Time In The Saddle


2015-05-30 2:42 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Originally posted by Lupy

Originally posted by Leegoocrap

5x5's, 3-4x10's, 3-4x15's, 2x20's, 1x40, 1x60, 15x1

Ride a lot, and ride hard a lot of that lot.


Can we get this translated to noob?


while it leaves room for interpretation, do these as X reps of Y minutes. Generally go as hard as you can sustain across the entire thing, so rep 1should be the same effort/power as rep 5.

Rest depends on what your'e targeting and how long/short the intervals are.. the shorter the interval, the longer the rest (allows for higher power outputs closer to your potential. For intervals 5 min or less, rest up to 5 minutes. for longer intervals, rest 2-3 minutes.

This is a gross generalizatoin, but fun enough to get you started.

if you want more structure, pick any 2 intervals above with different durations (3x10min & 3 x 5 min) make those your two interval rides for the week, with teh rest eitehr recovery, skills or a weekly long ride. build up each week (4 x 10' & 4 x 5' ) or sub a different duration (4 x 8' & 10 x 1') or whatever. You can be scientific & progressive (easier to track improvements) or you can mix it up (more like real life) but keep testing and experimenting to see if you're improving.
2015-05-30 3:44 PM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed

Originally posted by Danno77 First number is reps. Second number is seconds.MINUTES Minimal rest between sets. Effort on sets is whatever makes you bleed from the lungs, eyes, or bowels. Repeat workouts as often as possible

 

fixt

2015-05-30 3:47 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Lol, thanks!


2015-05-30 5:02 PM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed

Originally posted by Danno77 Lol, thanks!

but the rest of your post was accurate.

I am a proponent of riding lots when one is starting out, to get base miles in.  However, in the last 2-3 years I've basically been doing versions of the above, twice a week for an hour, and then one long(ish) ride on the weekends.  I've progressed much further in these last couple years than ever in the prior years, where it was just riding.  You gotta ride hard.

2015-05-30 5:26 PM
in reply to: #5119171

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
I saw all of the numbers and I've done a hard one that was similar with seconds (ok not all that similar--- I'm thinking "Revolver" from Sufferfest). If that was ONE workout it would be several hours if those were minutes. I get now those are not all pieces of ONE workout... I did have a nice ride that would use something like 5x2 and 5x5 and 2x20, with solid 20min warm up and cool down and even though it's a 2 hr+ ride that toasted me, it seemed to go by fast.
2015-05-30 5:32 PM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed

Originally posted by Danno77 I saw all of the numbers and I've done a hard one that was similar with seconds (ok not all that similar--- I'm thinking "Revolver" from Sufferfest). If that was ONE workout it would be several hours if those were minutes. I get now those are not all pieces of ONE workout... I did have a nice ride that would use something like 5x2 and 5x5 and 2x20, with solid 20min warm up and cool down and even though it's a 2 hr+ ride that toasted me, it seemed to go by fast.

Yeah, those are all variations on the same theme.   2 x 20 is the "traditional standard," to the extent there is one.

Now seconds CAN be quite painful and difficult if the effort is hard enough, no doubt

I ride a computrainer btw so all of my intervals are power based.

2015-05-30 5:33 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Originally posted by Leegoocrap

5x5's, 3-4x10's, 3-4x15's, 2x20's, 1x40, 1x60, 15x1

Ride a lot, and ride hard a lot of that lot.


I'm assuming this isn't one workout. If it is, that's one honkin' long workout. What combination do you do for each workout?
2015-05-30 6:49 PM
in reply to: b2run

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed

Originally posted by b2run
Originally posted by Leegoocrap 5x5's, 3-4x10's, 3-4x15's, 2x20's, 1x40, 1x60, 15x1 Ride a lot, and ride hard a lot of that lot.
I'm assuming this isn't one workout. If it is, that's one honkin' long workout. What combination do you do for each workout?

Any one of those sets is the focus of the workout. Which one depends on what you want to work on. Get a good warm-up and have at it. First and last are Z5 and the rest Z4 (usually). Trend of these is that the shorter the interval, the higher the IF.



2015-06-02 1:39 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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DC
Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Danno77 I saw all of the numbers and I've done a hard one that was similar with seconds (ok not all that similar--- I'm thinking "Revolver" from Sufferfest). If that was ONE workout it would be several hours if those were minutes. I get now those are not all pieces of ONE workout... I did have a nice ride that would use something like 5x2 and 5x5 and 2x20, with solid 20min warm up and cool down and even though it's a 2 hr+ ride that toasted me, it seemed to go by fast.

Yeah, those are all variations on the same theme.   2 x 20 is the "traditional standard," to the extent there is one.

Now seconds CAN be quite painful and difficult if the effort is hard enough, no doubt

I ride a computrainer btw so all of my intervals are power based.




For the non-power users (i.e., folks w/wives who won't let them get one): When do you keep track of your heart rate? Is it "ignored" when going all-out on the intervals and only used to ensure recovery in between sets?
2015-06-02 1:48 PM
in reply to: Porfirio

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed

Originally posted by Porfirio
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Danno77 I saw all of the numbers and I've done a hard one that was similar with seconds (ok not all that similar--- I'm thinking "Revolver" from Sufferfest). If that was ONE workout it would be several hours if those were minutes. I get now those are not all pieces of ONE workout... I did have a nice ride that would use something like 5x2 and 5x5 and 2x20, with solid 20min warm up and cool down and even though it's a 2 hr+ ride that toasted me, it seemed to go by fast.

Yeah, those are all variations on the same theme.   2 x 20 is the "traditional standard," to the extent there is one.

Now seconds CAN be quite painful and difficult if the effort is hard enough, no doubt

I ride a computrainer btw so all of my intervals are power based.

For the non-power users (i.e., folks w/wives who won't let them get one): When do you keep track of your heart rate? Is it "ignored" when going all-out on the intervals and only used to ensure recovery in between sets?

I trained for 2 years going by HR on the bike.  I only used HR for intervals longer than 5 minutes.  For anything shorter you're better off going by RPE.  Even without a powermeter you should have an idea of what "HARD" feels like for those shorter intervals.  HR works great for 10' and higher intervals.

2015-06-02 1:49 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by b2run
Originally posted by Leegoocrap 5x5's, 3-4x10's, 3-4x15's, 2x20's, 1x40, 1x60, 15x1 Ride a lot, and ride hard a lot of that lot.
I'm assuming this isn't one workout. If it is, that's one honkin' long workout. What combination do you do for each workout?

Any one of those sets is the focus of the workout. Which one depends on what you want to work on. Get a good warm-up and have at it. First and last are Z5 and the rest Z4 (usually). Trend of these is that the shorter the interval, the higher the IF.




^ True dat

I guess if you're a real sadist you can try to do them all :D Let us know how it goes...
2015-06-02 2:00 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed

Originally posted by Porfirio
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Danno77 I saw all of the numbers and I've done a hard one that was similar with seconds (ok not all that similar--- I'm thinking "Revolver" from Sufferfest). If that was ONE workout it would be several hours if those were minutes. I get now those are not all pieces of ONE workout... I did have a nice ride that would use something like 5x2 and 5x5 and 2x20, with solid 20min warm up and cool down and even though it's a 2 hr+ ride that toasted me, it seemed to go by fast.

Yeah, those are all variations on the same theme.   2 x 20 is the "traditional standard," to the extent there is one.

Now seconds CAN be quite painful and difficult if the effort is hard enough, no doubt

I ride a computrainer btw so all of my intervals are power based.

For the non-power users (i.e., folks w/wives who won't let them get one): When do you keep track of your heart rate? Is it "ignored" when going all-out on the intervals and only used to ensure recovery in between sets?

You can use HR for these intervals.  Maybe not the really short ones that are a minute or shorter, but certainly for those in the 5-20' range.  It takes some getting used to accounting for your HR drift, but it can be done.

What I would suggest though is that if you have access to long steady hills, you use those for intervals and time yourself for pacing.  Hills tend to take aerodynamics out of play for the most part, so you can better judge how hard you are going using speed and time.  You probably want to shoot for a hill that averages 5-7% and is pretty consistent in grade.

For example, if you wanted to do 5x5' intervals, find a short hill maybe a mile long at 5%.  Then just do 5 repeats from 2 specific landmarks with the goal of doing that segment as close to 5 minutes as possible.  If you do the first one at 4:30, either you are going to blow up later on in the sets because you went too hard or you need to lengthen the segment to better reflect a 5x5' effort that will be tough to finish.  And vice versa if you are finishing in 5:30.

As you keep doing this, you can start charting your progress.  Maybe at week one you were doing these climbs averaging 5:15.  And 5 weeks later you're doing them in 4:45.  That's progress.  Or lets say instead of going faster you were lengthening the route...so you're going farther up the hill in 5 minutes than you were before.

You could do this on the flats as well, but aerodynamics play a much bigger role and becomes harder to account for.

If you are using HR on these hill interval workouts, you can then track your HR drift across your intervals and then carry that over to flat land riding.



Edited by Jason N 2015-06-02 2:01 PM
2015-06-02 2:04 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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DC
Subject: RE: Want to go fast on the bike. How do you build speed
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Porfirio
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Danno77 I saw all of the numbers and I've done a hard one that was similar with seconds (ok not all that similar--- I'm thinking "Revolver" from Sufferfest). If that was ONE workout it would be several hours if those were minutes. I get now those are not all pieces of ONE workout... I did have a nice ride that would use something like 5x2 and 5x5 and 2x20, with solid 20min warm up and cool down and even though it's a 2 hr+ ride that toasted me, it seemed to go by fast.

Yeah, those are all variations on the same theme.   2 x 20 is the "traditional standard," to the extent there is one.

Now seconds CAN be quite painful and difficult if the effort is hard enough, no doubt

I ride a computrainer btw so all of my intervals are power based.

For the non-power users (i.e., folks w/wives who won't let them get one): When do you keep track of your heart rate? Is it "ignored" when going all-out on the intervals and only used to ensure recovery in between sets?

You can use HR for these intervals.  Maybe not the really short ones that are a minute or shorter, but certainly for those in the 5-20' range.  It takes some getting used to accounting for your HR drift, but it can be done.

What I would suggest though is that if you have access to long steady hills, you use those for intervals and time yourself for pacing.  Hills tend to take aerodynamics out of play for the most part, so you can better judge how hard you are going using speed and time.  You probably want to shoot for a hill that averages 5-7% and is pretty consistent in grade.

For example, if you wanted to do 5x5' intervals, find a short hill maybe a mile long at 5%.  Then just do 5 repeats from 2 specific landmarks with the goal of doing that segment as close to 5 minutes as possible.  If you do the first one at 4:30, either you are going to blow up later on in the sets because you went too hard or you need to lengthen the segment to better reflect a 5x5' effort that will be tough to finish.  And vice versa if you are finishing in 5:30.

As you keep doing this, you can start charting your progress.  Maybe at week one you were doing these climbs averaging 5:15.  And 5 weeks later you're doing them in 4:45.  That's progress.  Or lets say instead of going faster you were lengthening the route...so you're going farther up the hill in 5 minutes than you were before.

You could do this on the flats as well, but aerodynamics play a much bigger role and becomes harder to account for.

If you are using HR on these hill interval workouts, you can then track your HR drift across your intervals and then carry that over to flat land riding.




Cool. Thanks. I have been using hills for speed-build but w/out formal tracking. Will start!


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