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2015-05-30 9:59 AM

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Subject: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?
I usually do my last, longest run 3 weeks before a long course (HIM) race, with a shorter but not short run 2 weeks out. Something like a 14 miler (targeting about 2 hours) and 9-10 miler, respectively, with the one week out the longest being 6-7 miles. Bike and swim follow this, but the run takes the biggest toll on me so I'm most curious about it (let's assume that the b/s proportionally follow whatever i do plan-wise with the run).

I've once pushed the 2 week out run up closer to the 14 miler (with 8x9' at HIM pace intervals in the middle as typical for that workout), say up to 11-12 miles, so less overall time and maybe cut two intervals out. Seemed fine recovery/taper wise.

My question is how close can one place the longest/hardest (not fast, necessarily, just the highest TSS run) to a long course race and still be able to peak/taper?

I'm considering running my last build block right up to two weeks before a triple oly distance and then taking one peak week (a bit less volume but with more race specific intensity, so only a slight arp in TSS for the week) and one taper/travel week. Usually I'd take two peak weeks and gradually decrease the TSS a bit each week (so, still strong weeks but shedding a little fatigue or staying even at least the first week) with a one week taper.

All this as background to why I'm curious about the more general question: how close is too close for the last long/stressful run?

Matt

(And for this upcoming race I'm planning to do my "big day" combination three weeks out rather than four and my last long run two weeks out, so I'll have another data point - good or bad! - in about a month... Unless I hear that is a stupid plan).


2015-05-30 10:19 AM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?

You really need to look at all the workouts to get a better picture of your overall training stress and ability to recover properly.  All the shorter (and possibly more intense) workouts...or lack thereof count as well and probably play a bigger role in your overall weekly TSS than any single long workout.

2015-05-30 11:15 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?
^ This.

I'm not a long distance triathlete, but this kind of question comes up a lot in my marathon circles. You will sometimes people say things like "you don't get any benefit from a workout within [a certain time] before the race...." but that's an oversimplification. Yes, it's true we adapt differently to types of training, but it's only when you look at all your weeks of training together that you see the desired effect.

So your question can only really be answered by looking at all your training-- weeks leading up to the taper/race and the workouts around the long run in that week.
2015-05-30 2:07 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?

Agree.  So let me try it a different way.

Working back from the race, I typically do a taper week prior to the race (5-6 hours focused on SHORT race intensity intervals interspersed in otherwise ez workouts, two weeks of peak (race intensity and medium length intervals but slowly decreasing total volume, and no long workouts in s/b/r - only medium to medium long:  10 - 12 balanced hours) and a two week build period prior to that (my biggest weeks leading into a race, usually a balanced 13-15 hours).

If I cut the first peak week and do a three week build, does that put a "big" build week too close to the race?  

I know that it always depends on the person and how fast they recover and such, but assuming the first plan works fine for me and maybe even feels a bit light by the end of the peak/taper, does anyone have experience with trying something like this?  Keeping your typical build skedj for a week closer to the race than you usually do (for you, so perhaps generalizable when compared to typical for someone else - not the same hours, just moving YOUR typical build block closer to the race by a week)?

While it depends on me and how I recover, etc. (I know, I know), I'd be interested if anyone else has tried it and what their experience was.

Thanks

Matt

2015-05-30 3:18 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?
this is only a piece of the puzzle, but I find it interesting

this is a graph that comes from RaceDay Appollo from Dr Skiba

It shows the benefit of a workout X days before a race. So for example 90 days out, almost no residual benefit. Peak benefit 20 days out. 0 benefit 7 days out, negative effect closer to race date.

This model is dependant on the athlete and the sport.







(Screenshot 2015-05-30 15.07.52.png)



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2015-05-30 4:55 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?

Thanks Marc!

Agree it's only a piece of the puzzle (and that "it depends" still holds), but it helps put the other puzzle pieces in perspective.

Interesting, as I had recalled from the deep recesses of my physiology courses that peak benefit was more like 10-14 days out rather than in the 18-22 day range.  Still looks like work 2 weeks delivers benefits, but then it gets into a zone where the error bars for an individual might bite one in the backside...

Per this particular chart, then, a big day 3 weeks out, a long run two weeks out and then tapering in looks OK.

Also fits with what myself and others have observed (here and elsewhere) about it seeming like many people taper a bit too long or too aggressively - but even that depends on the individual and how much fatigue they're carrying and such.

Much appreciated.

Matt



2015-05-31 5:37 AM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Thanks Marc!

Agree it's only a piece of the puzzle (and that "it depends" still holds), but it helps put the other puzzle pieces in perspective.

Interesting, as I had recalled from the deep recesses of my physiology courses that peak benefit was more like 10-14 days out rather than in the 18-22 day range.  Still looks like work 2 weeks delivers benefits, but then it gets into a zone where the error bars for an individual might bite one in the backside...

Per this particular chart, then, a big day 3 weeks out, a long run two weeks out and then tapering in looks OK.

Also fits with what myself and others have observed (here and elsewhere) about it seeming like many people taper a bit too long or too aggressively - but even that depends on the individual and how much fatigue they're carrying and such.

Much appreciated.

Matt




They also provide some guideline parameters you can use to set the curve, and yes, it's easy to get to an "optimium" 10-12 days out. In theory Raceday, through testing figures out the perfect curve for you.

also take a look at this
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/03/key-to-running-fast-on-race...
2015-05-31 5:46 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?
Hmm...Maybe in my case I should just cease and desist and enclose myself in a bubble ten to fifteen days out? My usual rule of thumb for longer runs or bricks has been two weeks. I did a fairly hard brick (though not as long as usual) nine days before my last HIM that may have been my undoing, since I got sick a few days later. On the plan I was using, it was scheduled seven days out, which I really thought was too close for comfort, so I moved it back to nine. Probably should have been more like 14-15, particularly considering the heat I train in, which probably adds an additional element of stress.
2015-05-31 6:51 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?
Originally posted by Hot Runner

Hmm...Maybe in my case I should just cease and desist and enclose myself in a bubble ten to fifteen days out? My usual rule of thumb for longer runs or bricks has been two weeks. I did a fairly hard brick (though not as long as usual) nine days before my last HIM that may have been my undoing, since I got sick a few days later. On the plan I was using, it was scheduled seven days out, which I really thought was too close for comfort, so I moved it back to nine. Probably should have been more like 14-15, particularly considering the heat I train in, which probably adds an additional element of stress.



What you can/should do in the 2 weeks before a 1 week taper depends so much on what you did all the months previous and what you plan to do after the race
2015-06-02 8:41 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Long run: how close to a long course race and still have a positive effect?

When I was training for my second Full Marathons, I trained through a half marathon.  Two weeks before the half marathon I did a 16 mile run.  The following week I did four easy 5 mile runs, an interval work out on the track, and a 12 mile run.  The week of the race I did my interval work out on the track, three easy 8 miles runs, took Friday off then ran the 1/2 Marathon on Saturday.  The first five miles of the race I felt dead legged and fatigued but was able to work through it. After about five miles the dead leggedness went away,  my legs felt great, I ran well and I finished just 8 seconds over my 1/2 marathon PR.  

Six weeks later I showed up to my Marathon on three weeks of heavy tapering.  The marathon was snowed out and they rescheduled a 1/2 marathon in its place for the following Saturday.  I didn't really have any other option but to add a 4th week to the taper and return the following week.  That make-up race didn't go well for me.  I finished 1 min 19 sec slower than the race I had trained through 6 weeks earlier.   I admit that I was dialed into my marathon pace strategy and changing to a half marathon I over compensated and went out 20 seconds/mile too fast for the first two miles so these two races may not be apples to apples, but the point that I want to make is that you can have a good race regardless of what your taper plan is.  One of my high school Cross country Coaches would tell us that running was 10% physical and 90% mental.  I believe that timing your last long run has a bigger impact on you mental preparedness that your physical preparedness.  The shorter your taper is the more mentally sharp you are.  The longer the taper the more physically rested you are.   My understanding is that a 3 week taper is optimal for physical recovery and rest and that 10 days is optimal for mental sharpness.  So like others said it just comes down to you and your training.     

 

 

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