Marathon running
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2015-06-16 5:22 PM |
New user 132 Kingston, Ontario | Subject: Marathon running Doing Ironman Los Cabos this October. Have no issues running half marathons however never even came close to training for a full. No idea where to even start and how to fuel for it. Any newbie books you recommend to get me on the right path? a running plan would be essential as well.. Cheers |
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2015-06-16 6:38 PM in reply to: #5123016 |
239 | Subject: RE: Marathon running Google Hal Higdon Marathon Plan. He is kind of a legend in the running world. I integrated his novice running plan with my swim/bike training and it worked pretty well. Plus, they are free. I am pretty frugal, so this was key. Good luck. |
2015-06-16 8:58 PM in reply to: Jeff B |
New user 132 Kingston, Ontario | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by Jeff B Google Hal Higdon Marathon Plan. He is kind of a legend in the running world. I integrated his novice running plan with my swim/bike training and it worked pretty well. Plus, they are free. I am pretty frugal, so this was key. Good luck. That was exactly what i was looking for, thank you. Now how about any help out there for how to become a great runner. Something to read that will give me a better understanding of the science behind running and how to become a great runner. Any help is greatly appreciated |
2015-06-17 6:31 AM in reply to: zombie2212 |
1053 | Subject: RE: Marathon running Daniels Running Formula is a great book. I think it belongs in any running library. I don't know about becoming a great runner, but to make yourself a better runner and getting closer to reaching your potential, I think the first and most important thing is consistency. Just get out and run. The second thing is not to overdo it and let yourself properly recover from your efforts. |
2015-06-17 7:34 AM in reply to: zombie2212 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by zombie2212 Doing Ironman Los Cabos this October. Have no issues running half marathons however never even came close to training for a full. No idea where to even start and how to fuel for it. Any newbie books you recommend to get me on the right path? a running plan would be essential as well.. Cheers Are you looking for a stand alone marathon training plan or figuring out the run of an Ironman? |
2015-06-17 7:40 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by zombie2212 Doing Ironman Los Cabos this October. Have no issues running half marathons however never even came close to training for a full. No idea where to even start and how to fuel for it. Any newbie books you recommend to get me on the right path? a running plan would be essential as well.. Cheers Are you looking for a stand alone marathon training plan or figuring out the run of an Ironman? Agreed. If you are doing Ironman, you DO NOT want a stand alone marathon plan for your training. |
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2015-06-17 8:41 AM in reply to: 0 |
1508 Cypress, Texas | Subject: RE: Marathon running The Hal Higdon Novice running plans are not really hard. I would think that they would be fine to use on top of your swim/bike training for an Ironman with out too many adjustments required. His intermediate and advance plans are probably too much to do on top of the Swim/Bike training though. His intermediate is about the level of most stand alone Marathon plans. The training really shouldn't be much different than your training for a half marathon. Your long runs will be longer as will some of you other runs. The pacing and nutrition is the biggest difference between a half marathon and a full marathon in an stand alone 1/2 marathon and stand alone marathon. Most people can store enough glycogen to fuel their body through 2-1/2 hours of intense running (zone 3). If you are finishing a 1/2 marathon in more than 2-1/2 hours you probably are not in the "intense" zone (and are in the zone 2) so really most people can finished a half marathon with out a planned out and tested pacing and nutrition strategy. In the full marathon that isn't the case. If your pace is too fast you can't refuel efficiently and you will crash before you get to the finish line. If you don't take in the right things during the race or take in too much your body could respond badly and you will not feel well and want to stop and walk (or stop and throw-up). If you don't get enough nutrition in, you will run out of glycogen and bonk. I am told that the Marathon in an Ironman is different than a stand alone marathon because you in a zone 2 (69-83% thresh hold HR) rather than a zone 3 ( 84%-94% thresh hold heart rate) where you burn more fat (extending the glycogen storage) and refuel faster (again keeping you glycogen levels up). I haven't read the Matt Fitzgerald books, but I know that his are some of the most popular on sports nutrition for Marathons and Triathlons. I just did a search and see that he has a book called The New Rules to Marathon Nutrition. That might be the one that you need. His Race Weight is one that was recommended to me when I had question about nutrition for half Ironmans. Edited by BlueBoy26 2015-06-17 8:46 AM |
2015-06-17 9:01 AM in reply to: zombie2212 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by zombie2212 Doing Ironman Los Cabos this October. Have no issues running half marathons however never even came close to training for a full. No idea where to even start and how to fuel for it. Any newbie books you recommend to get me on the right path? a running plan would be essential as well.. Cheers When it comes to the Ironman run, I always use the word "run", I never use the word "marathon", because the only thing in common between an Ironman run and a stand-alone marathon is the 26.2 mile distance. I've done multiple IMs and multiple marathons, and there is a WORLD of difference between the two. You start a marathon standing at the starting line fresh with only 26.2 miles before you, rested, hydrated, warmed up a bit, ready to go. You start an IM run coming out of T2, just finished your 112 mile bike, you may have a bit of rubbery cycling legs, your on-the-bike nutrition for the last several hours may or may not be working, etc. You get the point. The training is different too. A triathlon is one sport comprised of three events in sequence. There is some value in training for the swim like a swimmer, training for the bike like a cyclist, and training for the run like a runner, but most of it is in technique. As was said earlier, a stand-alone marathon plan is not like training for an Ironman run. IM training plans need to balance the training and time between three sports, and most are more bike focused than run focused (because that's where the time is spent). Marathon plans obviously focus on just running, and will have you running WAY too much for an IM. It's my opinion that too many IM athletes end up over-focusing on the bike to the point they are under-trained on the run, and if they'd just put a bit less training on the bike and a bit more on the run, there would be a lot fewer walkers on the IM course. It's so easy to overcook the bike and walk too much on the run and kill your overall time. The older "Going Long" books IIRC have a pretty good run plan. I'm a fan of Fink's approach to overall IM training he covers in his "Be Iron Fit" books. For marathons, Years ago I did my first few marathons using Hal Higdon type plans combined with Maffetone type HR-based pacing and training. I've not read the Jack Daniel's books, but I've done a lot of run training with paces based on his v-dot approach and the http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm pace calculators. Good luck in Cabo. I did it the first year it was raced and the bike was harder than expected for most people and this hurt overall times. They have a different bike course now, but I think the run is the same. The run is super flat and easy as IM runs go. |
2015-06-17 11:54 AM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by zombie2212 Doing Ironman Los Cabos this October. Have no issues running half marathons however never even came close to training for a full. No idea where to even start and how to fuel for it. Any newbie books you recommend to get me on the right path? a running plan would be essential as well.. Cheers Are you looking for a stand alone marathon training plan or figuring out the run of an Ironman? Agreed. If you are doing Ironman, you DO NOT want a stand alone marathon plan for your training. x3. I'm confused by your post. The subject is "Marathon Running", but the only race you mention is the IM. What are you really asking?
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2015-06-17 12:45 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Veteran 273 Downingtown, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Marathon running Yea just adding my voice to the chorus here. IM run != marathon. Other than the distance, they aren't at all the same thing. It you are training for an IM, use an IM training plan. Don't try to shoe-horn a marathon plan as run training for an IM into your IM training. Not a smart idea. |
2015-06-17 1:52 PM in reply to: noofus |
Veteran 740 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Marathon running Since you seem to be thinking about IM's, my book suggestion would be "Be Iron Fit" by Don Fink (which includes several training plans). An alternative to the book would be to follow one of the BT plans on this site. As others have said, training for IM is fundamentally different than training for a single-sport event. IM training really boils down to a time management exercise for most people.......if you only have X-hours a week available for training, how can you use them most effectively. You're getting close to 20-weeks out from IM-Cabo, which should be just fine for someone with a decent fitness base, but that's starting to cut it pretty close for someone who has limited experience with endurance events. |
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2015-06-17 8:51 PM in reply to: BlueBoy26 |
New user 132 Kingston, Ontario | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by BlueBoy26 The Hal Higdon Novice running plans are not really hard. I would think that they would be fine to use on top of your swim/bike training for an Ironman with out too many adjustments required. His intermediate and advance plans are probably too much to do on top of the Swim/Bike training though. His intermediate is about the level of most stand alone Marathon plans. The training really shouldn't be much different than your training for a half marathon. Your long runs will be longer as will some of you other runs. The pacing and nutrition is the biggest difference between a half marathon and a full marathon in an stand alone 1/2 marathon and stand alone marathon. Most people can store enough glycogen to fuel their body through 2-1/2 hours of intense running (zone 3). If you are finishing a 1/2 marathon in more than 2-1/2 hours you probably are not in the "intense" zone (and are in the zone 2) so really most people can finished a half marathon with out a planned out and tested pacing and nutrition strategy. In the full marathon that isn't the case. If your pace is too fast you can't refuel efficiently and you will crash before you get to the finish line. If you don't take in the right things during the race or take in too much your body could respond badly and you will not feel well and want to stop and walk (or stop and throw-up). If you don't get enough nutrition in, you will run out of glycogen and bonk. I am told that the Marathon in an Ironman is different than a stand alone marathon because you in a zone 2 (69-83% thresh hold HR) rather than a zone 3 ( 84%-94% thresh hold heart rate) where you burn more fat (extending the glycogen storage) and refuel faster (again keeping you glycogen levels up). I haven't read the Matt Fitzgerald books, but I know that his are some of the most popular on sports nutrition for Marathons and Triathlons. I just did a search and see that he has a book called The New Rules to Marathon Nutrition. That might be the one that you need. His Race Weight is one that was recommended to me when I had question about nutrition for half Ironmans. Wow that was a very thought out response and thank you very much. I can do HM in about 1:40:00. I don't fuel for them so i definitely have no clue about marathon nutrition. I will look into that book about nutrition because i am finding it difficult to grasp. I also only plan on doing plan for the ironman marathon so i won't be doing straight up marathon plan. I feel it would be too much on my body. I did however get the Hal Higdon novice plan for my iPhone and think it should be fine. Doesn't seem too daunting. Again thank you for sharing.. |
2015-06-17 8:55 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
New user 132 Kingston, Ontario | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by zombie2212 Doing Ironman Los Cabos this October. Have no issues running half marathons however never even came close to training for a full. No idea where to even start and how to fuel for it. Any newbie books you recommend to get me on the right path? a running plan would be essential as well.. Cheers Are you looking for a stand alone marathon training plan or figuring out the run of an Ironman? Agreed. If you are doing Ironman, you DO NOT want a stand alone marathon plan for your training. x3. I'm confused by your post. The subject is "Marathon Running", but the only race you mention is the IM. What are you really asking?
I am referring to a plan for the run portion of an Ironman. Never really thought there would be much of a difference between the two however, I've never done either lol. Nutrition knowledge to get me through would be good and a running plan was what i was focused on. |
2015-06-17 10:06 PM in reply to: #5123016 |
409 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Marathon running I'm currently just focusing on my running. I really like the Barry P plan from the other site (Google Barry p plan for the links). I'm running 6 days a week and trying to cycle 3. I'll go along with everyone else and say follow an Ironman plan though since your race is so close. Training peaks has some that you can buy as well. If you have a plan and are just worried about the run try throwing some short recovery runs in where you can. I'm not aiming for a specific race which is why I can focus on my run for now and let the other disciplines slack. |
2015-06-18 8:59 AM in reply to: zombie2212 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by zombie2212 Then, forget about marathon training plans. As was mentioned above, a marathon and IM run have very little in common beyond the distance. Consider this: physiologically, for the average amateur a marathon is a 3-5 hour event, and an IM run is the last 4-6 hours of a 10-17 hour event.Originally posted by TriMyBest I am referring to a plan for the run portion of an Ironman. Never really thought there would be much of a difference between the two however, I've never done either lol. Nutrition knowledge to get me through would be good and a running plan was what i was focused on. Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by zombie2212 Doing Ironman Los Cabos this October. Have no issues running half marathons however never even came close to training for a full. No idea where to even start and how to fuel for it. Any newbie books you recommend to get me on the right path? a running plan would be essential as well.. Cheers Are you looking for a stand alone marathon training plan or figuring out the run of an Ironman? Agreed. If you are doing Ironman, you DO NOT want a stand alone marathon plan for your training. x3. I'm confused by your post. The subject is "Marathon Running", but the only race you mention is the IM. What are you really asking?
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2015-06-18 9:10 AM in reply to: zombie2212 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by zombie2212 Originally posted by BlueBoy26 Wow that was a very thought out response and thank you very much. I can do HM in about 1:40:00. I don't fuel for them so i definitely have no clue about marathon nutrition. I will look into that book about nutrition because i am finding it difficult to grasp. I also only plan on doing plan for the ironman marathon so i won't be doing straight up marathon plan. I feel it would be too much on my body. I did however get the Hal Higdon novice plan for my iPhone and think it should be fine. Doesn't seem too daunting. Again thank you for sharing.. The Hal Higdon Novice running plans are not really hard. I would think that they would be fine to use on top of your swim/bike training for an Ironman with out too many adjustments required. His intermediate and advance plans are probably too much to do on top of the Swim/Bike training though. His intermediate is about the level of most stand alone Marathon plans. The training really shouldn't be much different than your training for a half marathon. Your long runs will be longer as will some of you other runs. The pacing and nutrition is the biggest difference between a half marathon and a full marathon in an stand alone 1/2 marathon and stand alone marathon. Most people can store enough glycogen to fuel their body through 2-1/2 hours of intense running (zone 3). If you are finishing a 1/2 marathon in more than 2-1/2 hours you probably are not in the "intense" zone (and are in the zone 2) so really most people can finished a half marathon with out a planned out and tested pacing and nutrition strategy. In the full marathon that isn't the case. If your pace is too fast you can't refuel efficiently and you will crash before you get to the finish line. If you don't take in the right things during the race or take in too much your body could respond badly and you will not feel well and want to stop and walk (or stop and throw-up). If you don't get enough nutrition in, you will run out of glycogen and bonk. I am told that the Marathon in an Ironman is different than a stand alone marathon because you in a zone 2 (69-83% thresh hold HR) rather than a zone 3 ( 84%-94% thresh hold heart rate) where you burn more fat (extending the glycogen storage) and refuel faster (again keeping you glycogen levels up). I haven't read the Matt Fitzgerald books, but I know that his are some of the most popular on sports nutrition for Marathons and Triathlons. I just did a search and see that he has a book called The New Rules to Marathon Nutrition. That might be the one that you need. His Race Weight is one that was recommended to me when I had question about nutrition for half Ironmans.
It's a well thought out response. But it is from a runner who has never done an IM. I suggest posting some more information about your background and current abilities in the 3 sports. Then you will get some much better suggestions on how to proceed to plan for your IM. From what you have said so far, it really sounds like you are asking the wrong question and need to take a step or two back before assuming you need a marathon training and nutrition plan. |
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2015-06-18 9:25 AM in reply to: zombie2212 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Marathon running Originally posted by zombie2212 Originally posted by BlueBoy26 Wow that was a very thought out response and thank you very much. I can do HM in about 1:40:00. I don't fuel for them so i definitely have no clue about marathon nutrition. I will look into that book about nutrition because i am finding it difficult to grasp. I also only plan on doing plan for the ironman marathon so i won't be doing straight up marathon plan. I feel it would be too much on my body. I did however get the Hal Higdon novice plan for my iPhone and think it should be fine. Doesn't seem too daunting. Again thank you for sharing.. The Hal Higdon Novice running plans are not really hard. I would think that they would be fine to use on top of your swim/bike training for an Ironman with out too many adjustments required. His intermediate and advance plans are probably too much to do on top of the Swim/Bike training though. His intermediate is about the level of most stand alone Marathon plans. The training really shouldn't be much different than your training for a half marathon. Your long runs will be longer as will some of you other runs. The pacing and nutrition is the biggest difference between a half marathon and a full marathon in an stand alone 1/2 marathon and stand alone marathon. Most people can store enough glycogen to fuel their body through 2-1/2 hours of intense running (zone 3). If you are finishing a 1/2 marathon in more than 2-1/2 hours you probably are not in the "intense" zone (and are in the zone 2) so really most people can finished a half marathon with out a planned out and tested pacing and nutrition strategy. In the full marathon that isn't the case. If your pace is too fast you can't refuel efficiently and you will crash before you get to the finish line. If you don't take in the right things during the race or take in too much your body could respond badly and you will not feel well and want to stop and walk (or stop and throw-up). If you don't get enough nutrition in, you will run out of glycogen and bonk. I am told that the Marathon in an Ironman is different than a stand alone marathon because you in a zone 2 (69-83% thresh hold HR) rather than a zone 3 ( 84%-94% thresh hold heart rate) where you burn more fat (extending the glycogen storage) and refuel faster (again keeping you glycogen levels up). I haven't read the Matt Fitzgerald books, but I know that his are some of the most popular on sports nutrition for Marathons and Triathlons. I just did a search and see that he has a book called The New Rules to Marathon Nutrition. That might be the one that you need. His Race Weight is one that was recommended to me when I had question about nutrition for half Ironmans. While you are running in both parts, there are some rather notable differences. As noted, the prior response has some nice thoughts, but for a marathon and training for that. You are looking at running as part of a much longer event. You'll be running longer and at a lower intensity after already being in a rather fatigued state at the start of it. Also consider the training. The Novice plans may not be that hard for a solid runner, but I have seen more than a few novice runners have to push themselves to get through them. That's also when marathon training only, not Ironman training. A novice plan will be much harder with all the swimming and biking that needs to be done. And it's really necessary to get through those two well to have any chance of running well. Another reason to look at the IM planning as a whole is that you will need to push and recover in each of the three disciplines. Being fatigued from one will affect the others. |
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