General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals Rss Feed  
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2015-06-22 3:22 PM

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Subject: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
Which do you choose when setting goals for a race and why?

For those that have goal times, that can be effected by so many uncontrollable variables why?

just some curiosity


2015-06-22 3:59 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
I'd guess that time-driven goals are selected because they are easier and more immediate to measure. Measuring how well you are hitting your training sessions, for example, may not bring on the same feelings of satisfaction despite flowing directly into any time-driven goal that one may have.

Additionally, it could be that time-driven goals, for the reasons you've mentioned, are easier to explain away when not met. Didn't bust 5 hours in your last HIM? Well it was pretty hot out, so that may be why. Certain can't be the person, or poor race execution, or anything else that points the finger at me

Lastly, it could be that time-driven goals are much more easily relayed to others. We're all competitive people, and if you are competing with others then finishing time (or split times) are the measuring stick.

All just conjecture, but that's what comes to mind.
2015-06-22 4:01 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals

I almost exclusively stick to Outcome based goals for races and process driven ones for training.

My thinking:

Outcomes in training are less important for a beginner like than just getting out there. So if I think (I will ride three times this week) or (I will ride three times with quality climbs) I am meeting my process goals. I am not caring at all (or much) about power or speed etc but still hitting a goal. I am aware that this thinking may result in my training reaching a plateau but I am not close to that yet and still find it useful. In that it is more important for me to be consistent with my workouts and training than it is to attain a certain quality.

But with races I swap to Outcomes as....in the race the process is decided for me. I know I will have to swim,run bike and transition and the event decides how far and when and where it happens. However setting outcome goals allows me to measure myself against previous performances and my own (ambitions or modest predictions). Goal times specifically help.

One example. Many of my pool swims prior to a recent sprint where coming in at about 15 minutes. I knew I might gain from (cool water, wetsuit, drafting, race day) and might suffer due to (zig zags, turns, no ends, flailing arms etc). So I set a 15 min target to be sure I did 'at least as good as a pool swim' This may evolve into smaller process driven goals in future swims, like 'sight better' but they will still just be the building block of trying to hit 14:30 or 14:00 etc.

Having said this my very first few running and triathlon events did involve process based goals like 'swim without resorting to breast stroke', 'run without walking' and I think that if in the future I step up in distance I will have process based goals like 'just finish no matter what' as the key goals. But that only lasts for the first time at a new distance or as a bare minimum goal once I gain some confidence.

2015-06-22 4:11 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
I always have pacing goals (goal and stretch goal) per Tri leg - Swim: 100 yard pace, Bike: MPH, and Run: Min/Mile based on my perceived fitness at race time, race day conditions, and the course. For transitions, I don't usually have a time goal, unless I have done the race before, but rather have a don't screw up and follow my plan goal, so that might be Process, not time driven.

I wasn't sure really what you even meant by Process Driven Goal until I read the other replies. Live and learn!
2015-06-22 4:14 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals

My last goals were based on qualifying for teams:

A sub-2:35 Olympic put me in consideration for the Army Tri Team (turns out, I need to actually be MUCH faster!)

A sub-4:00 marathon put me in the top spot for the AZ National Guard Marathon Team. (waiting until January to see if I'm still the fastest applicant!)

I've actually been sort of clueless as to what's next because chasing outcome-driven goals seems to be what I do, and I don't see anything else within my reach on the short-term (6-12 months) horizon.

Maybe I'll look to process-driven for a little motivation. I do know that I want to maintain 30mpw running starting in July. But outside of that, I'm still a little lost

2015-06-22 4:57 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals

Interesting topic and funny enough, one I was at least alluding to in my last race report.

My goals are almost all about the process. As you mentioned, the outcome has far too many variables to really have much control over. There have been plenty of races where I have not executed the way I wanted and won and other times where things went really well and I came in near the back of the pack.

However, I will say I've certainly competed in some races with outcome being the priority but this was more for achieving a time standard or qualification and scoring points for my team in cross country or track and field. 



2015-06-22 5:50 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals

For me it's a little bit of both.  Especially since all I do is bike race now.

For TTs or TT like events, it's mainly process driven.  I know what type of power I am capable of over X miles/minutes and I just try to execute a plan that will maximize that potential.  This year one of the races I focused on was a 40k TT.  I put out 13 more watts than last year but rode 25 seconds slower due to windy conditions.  I was very pleased with my result, especially since I got 35 seconds closer to the guy who won overall compared to last year.  I knew I was a little stronger, but by no means was I fixated on a goal that was X seconds faster than last year.

For road races, it does tend to be more outcome driven.  Whether it be to win the race, make the podium, stay with XYZ pack...you tend to fixate your goal on that outcome because you do not have full control on how the race will unfold.

2015-06-22 6:37 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
I have learned over the years that when I put too much investment into the outcome goals, I will often set myself up for disappointment or lasting depression. So it really has to be both for me, and mostly process-driven. The day-to-day has to be rewarding enough for its own sake and not just for the sake of the anticipated outcome.
2015-06-22 6:53 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
Both, but the outcome goals (time or placing) are tied to process goals and assumptions regarding weather, who else shows up, accuracy of the swimming course, etc. The process goals are based on training data.
2015-06-22 7:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
I guess mine are process goals. I'm always chasing the illusion that someday in a tri everything will work out well, I'll make good decisions, and do an effort that I think really reflects my abilities. Decent swim with good sighting and drafting, good bike leg, no crappy transitions, no cramping or heat exhaustion on the run, not getting sick before the race, etc. To be honest, I can think of only ONE tri (plus some run races when I was younger) that I was totally satisfied with--i.e. I really don't think I could have done much more that day given my fitness and equipment at the time. In every other case, there was something I didn't do very well--either within my control (sloppy transitions, bad decision making) or beyond it (bad weather, mechanical issue, extreme heat, illness or injury). While no race is ever "perfect", some are a lot better than others, and in my mind a well-executed race (or even a workout) is kind of a work of art. Other people paint or write or compose, I train and race. The time and place are secondary--they would depend somewhat on course difficulty, weather, and who showed up.

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-06-22 7:31 PM
2015-06-23 3:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
Originally posted by badmo77a

I almost exclusively stick to Outcome based goals for races and process driven ones for training.

My thinking:

Outcomes in training are less important for a beginner like than just getting out there. So if I think (I will ride three times this week) or (I will ride three times with quality climbs) I am meeting my process goals. I am not caring at all (or much) about power or speed etc but still hitting a goal. I am aware that this thinking may result in my training reaching a plateau but I am not close to that yet and still find it useful. In that it is more important for me to be consistent with my workouts and training than it is to attain a certain quality.

But with races I swap to Outcomes as....in the race the process is decided for me. I know I will have to swim,run bike and transition and the event decides how far and when and where it happens. However setting outcome goals allows me to measure myself against previous performances and my own (ambitions or modest predictions). Goal times specifically help.

One example. Many of my pool swims prior to a recent sprint where coming in at about 15 minutes. I knew I might gain from (cool water, wetsuit, drafting, race day) and might suffer due to (zig zags, turns, no ends, flailing arms etc). So I set a 15 min target to be sure I did 'at least as good as a pool swim' This may evolve into smaller process driven goals in future swims, like 'sight better' but they will still just be the building block of trying to hit 14:30 or 14:00 etc.

Having said this my very first few running and triathlon events did involve process based goals like 'swim without resorting to breast stroke', 'run without walking' and I think that if in the future I step up in distance I will have process based goals like 'just finish no matter what' as the key goals. But that only lasts for the first time at a new distance or as a bare minimum goal once I gain some confidence.




I would say you decide on the process during the race.

For example, lets say someone wants to go "x" time over "x" distance. With them being outcome focused, every decision they make will be based on making that goal a reality. They could potentially be blinding themselves to variables that will not allow for them to hit their goal. On the flip side, going to process driven goals, by being detached from the outcome of a time goal, the athlete can focus solely on the process within the moment ("stay in the moment") to make up a performance. This can keep the individual present in time and possibly being more observant and collected in their decision making process.

Would be interesting to do a study at a race for those that are process versus outcome goal based. How many hit their goals, and how many come short and how far short?

EDIT: I do think one BIG problem with outcome goals, specifically goal times, is many people talk about their goal time and then elaborate this perfect race they need to have in order to accomplish it. IMO, this is a simple setup for setting goals too high, especially long-course how often is it that everything goes according to plan on race day?

Edited by bcagle25 2015-06-23 3:21 PM


2015-06-23 5:03 PM
in reply to: bcagle25


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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
I set outcome- and process-driven goals in both training and in races.

As an example, this last winter I decided I wanted to get "stronger" and "become a better swimmer". I started a regular weight training regimen and joined a "masters basic" and eventually a USMS swim program. In my mind these are process-driven goals because I changed the way I approached the offseason in order to improve my overall process.

I also set a baseline 400 yd TT in December so I had a specific, measurable outcome to know whether I was achieving that goal.

In races I do the same thing. I set an "A", "B", and "C" goal.

"A" is time- and outcome-based. It may be a certain swim split, it may be a certain overall time or even just to improve upon last year. But it's quantifiable and outcome-based.

"B" is usually qualitative and process based. One example might be to achieve my nutrition plan. Another example might be to push through the uncomfortable feeling from the first few minutes of running off the bike. A quantitative example might be to achieve a certain number of sub-3:00 miles on the bike.

"C" is simple: finish.
2015-06-23 5:05 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by badmo77a

I almost exclusively stick to Outcome based goals for races and process driven ones for training.

My thinking:

Outcomes in training are less important for a beginner like than just getting out there. So if I think (I will ride three times this week) or (I will ride three times with quality climbs) I am meeting my process goals. I am not caring at all (or much) about power or speed etc but still hitting a goal. I am aware that this thinking may result in my training reaching a plateau but I am not close to that yet and still find it useful. In that it is more important for me to be consistent with my workouts and training than it is to attain a certain quality.

But with races I swap to Outcomes as....in the race the process is decided for me. I know I will have to swim,run bike and transition and the event decides how far and when and where it happens. However setting outcome goals allows me to measure myself against previous performances and my own (ambitions or modest predictions). Goal times specifically help.

One example. Many of my pool swims prior to a recent sprint where coming in at about 15 minutes. I knew I might gain from (cool water, wetsuit, drafting, race day) and might suffer due to (zig zags, turns, no ends, flailing arms etc). So I set a 15 min target to be sure I did 'at least as good as a pool swim' This may evolve into smaller process driven goals in future swims, like 'sight better' but they will still just be the building block of trying to hit 14:30 or 14:00 etc.

Having said this my very first few running and triathlon events did involve process based goals like 'swim without resorting to breast stroke', 'run without walking' and I think that if in the future I step up in distance I will have process based goals like 'just finish no matter what' as the key goals. But that only lasts for the first time at a new distance or as a bare minimum goal once I gain some confidence.

I would say you decide on the process during the race. For example, lets say someone wants to go "x" time over "x" distance. With them being outcome focused, every decision they make will be based on making that goal a reality. They could potentially be blinding themselves to variables that will not allow for them to hit their goal. On the flip side, going to process driven goals, by being detached from the outcome of a time goal, the athlete can focus solely on the process within the moment ("stay in the moment") to make up a performance. This can keep the individual present in time and possibly being more observant and collected in their decision making process. Would be interesting to do a study at a race for those that are process versus outcome goal based. How many hit their goals, and how many come short and how far short? EDIT: I do think one BIG problem with outcome goals, specifically goal times, is many people talk about their goal time and then elaborate this perfect race they need to have in order to accomplish it. IMO, this is a simple setup for setting goals too high, especially long-course how often is it that everything goes according to plan on race day?

I think you're right on the money, Ben.  Chasing paces or times in a race (especially long course) instead of focusing on the process (HR, power, smooth efficient transitions, etc) is usually a good way to implode in spectacular fashion.

I give my athletes detailed race plans for all their events.  The plans include when to arrive at the race, details like checking quick releases on their bikes plus ensuring that they're shifting right and in the the right gear to come out of T1, sitting quietly and visualizing their entire race from smooth efficient strokes and feeling the water gliding over their bodies to relaxed and quick transitions.  They include HR and RPE during different stages of the race and reminders about hydration and fueling strategies.  This almost always results in an outcome within minutes of what we projected and discussed for them, even though that wasn't the focus of the plan.

Execution of the process goals results in the desired outcome.  Focusing on the desired outcome usually results in coming up short.

 

2015-06-24 12:17 AM
in reply to: AbbasCincinnatus

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
Originally posted by AbbasCincinnatus

I set outcome- and process-driven goals in both training and in races.

As an example, this last winter I decided I wanted to get "stronger" and "become a better swimmer". I started a regular weight training regimen and joined a "masters basic" and eventually a USMS swim program. In my mind these are process-driven goals because I changed the way I approached the offseason in order to improve my overall process.

I also set a baseline 400 yd TT in December so I had a specific, measurable outcome to know whether I was achieving that goal.

In races I do the same thing. I set an "A", "B", and "C" goal.

"A" is time- and outcome-based. It may be a certain swim split, it may be a certain overall time or even just to improve upon last year. But it's quantifiable and outcome-based.

"B" is usually qualitative and process based. One example might be to achieve my nutrition plan. Another example might be to push through the uncomfortable feeling from the first few minutes of running off the bike. A quantitative example might be to achieve a certain number of sub-3:00 miles on the bike.

"C" is simple: finish.


I like this.

You can have both, but use them correctly in the right situations. This will differ from everyone, but let them allow you to have the best experience and for you to reach the desired performance level you want.

For me specifically I like to use process driven goals, but they might be built around outcome based goals.
2015-06-24 8:59 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals

Originally posted by bcagle25 Which do you choose when setting goals for a race and why? For those that have goal times, that can be effected by so many uncontrollable variables why? just some curiosity

Almost every one of us sets outcome based goals for a race because OUTCOME is what is measured and reported in spite of all the things outside our control.  

If I run a 5K in 23:58, that is what gets recorded in the race results for my name.  Whether that puts me 10th or 1000th is also an outcome based result and also gets recorded next to my name.  For many people, those outcomes are what define me.  

I don't get recognized for running a half-marathon at an average heart rate of 182 even if that is a process goal (really...more of a process outcome).  Same for whether I ran the whole way or executed my hydration plan or any of the other myriad of process-driven goals that support my OUTCOME based result.  

Having said this, that 23:58 number doesn't tell the whole story about my race.  How long and how intensely have I trained?  Did something happen the week of the race that caused me to execute better or worse than I might expect?  What was the weather?  What was the course like?  Did I stop for 6 minutes to help a fellow racer?  Did I trip and twist my ankle at the start line?  

2015-06-24 12:08 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals

It seems that we all can't help but have some variation of both goal types.

As many have mentioned, the outcome goals really are the measuring stick and anyone looking at the race results doesn't know a whole variety of variables that contributed to that outcome. 

And Ben, you  said, "With them being outcome focused, every decision they make will be based on making that goal a reality. They could potentially be blinding themselves to variables that will not allow for them to hit their goal." I might say that conversely, if they were chasing someone down for the win for instance, they may be able to push themselves outside of what they thought possible. After all, I think we all sign up for races because often the competition and energy of other racers might bring out something in ourselves we can't necessarily do on our own.

Or not! It really is an interesting topic. And one I think about often.

 

 



Edited by Asalzwed 2015-06-24 12:19 PM


2015-06-24 12:33 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Outcome drive goals vs Process Driven Goals
Even at the beginner levels, it's a bit of both. This is only my 2nd year, and I am prepping for my 4th event (same two as last year). I din't start doing these events because I liked the idea. It was more of a means to an end: Weight loss and overall fitness.

Last year my goals were not time driven at all. S/B/R 2/3/3 to train. Don't drown, don't crash, don't trip, and cross the line for the events. I do admit to wanting a sub-2hr time at my first simply because that's what the timing cutoff was, and I wanted a time

This year they're driven by all of the above... but at the same time I want to see faster splits. I got my wish in May by dropping time across the board. However, I still have 1 process goal to hit, and that is to run the full 5K. Will it happen in 6 weeks and 3 days? Maybe, maybe not. I find that that is part of the fun though.
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