General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim psychology... breaking the "wall" Rss Feed  
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2015-06-25 11:43 AM


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Subject: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"
Hi,

I started swimming (literally) in Oct of 2014... I hired a coach and he and I worked together three days a week for three months...
I have a pretty decent swim stroke now and some pretty good endurance.

My question revolves around the breaking through the psychological limits of swimming longer distances.
I currently swim around 500 meters but as soon as I hit 500 meters... I "feel" exhausted like I can't continue..
and I stop. Then I rest a minute and go another 300-400 meters with no issues... ?

I have swam 1600 meters... but it was swimming 50 meters at a time with a ten second rest in between each 50 meter set

How can I break this 500 meter "wall" ( for that matter any distance "wall" ) and start swimming longer distances?



Edited by mrlister 2015-06-25 11:59 AM


2015-06-25 11:57 AM
in reply to: mrlister

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

You're from the future?

Luckily the majority of your swims shouldn't really be longer than 500m anyway, unless you're racing. Training in general should be short/medium length intervals. As far as a psychological barrier, i guess it will just come with time and practice. Spend the majority of your brain energy on focusing on good form.

2015-06-25 12:00 PM
in reply to: trijamie


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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"
oops... Oct 2014 ! ( not 2015 )
2015-06-25 12:02 PM
in reply to: trijamie


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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"
huh... how do you go "the distance" then during a race? I tend to think... "train like you want to perform"... short distance training, in my mind, will lead to short distance performance on race day... ?
2015-06-25 12:10 PM
in reply to: mrlister

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

Water is about 800 times more dense than air.  Learning to minimize the drag through it is the key.  You do that by developing good form.  You will never muscle through it.  Over time you will gain a feel for the water and how to slice through it.  It just takes time and practice.

2015-06-25 12:38 PM
in reply to: mrlister

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

By swimming shorter intervals, and following each one with a short rest interval, you'll be more likely to maintain good form which is the really important in the water. Just swimming long and steady all the time will usually lead to your form suffering, and your performance will plateau. Doing shorter faster intervals is the best way to improve your swim fitness.



2015-06-25 12:41 PM
in reply to: mrlister

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

Originally posted by mrlister huh... how do you go "the distance" then during a race? I tend to think... "train like you want to perform"... short distance training, in my mind, will lead to short distance performance on race day... ?

What he meant was that the individual intervals will be smaller than 500. The total of the intervals should be more than 500 for a decent workout. The main set doesn't have to always be bigger than the race, just that the race distance of 500 in this case isn't a very big main set.

Also, you do want to understand what the demands of the race are, but training for those demands does not necessarily mean that it's race day every day.

2015-06-25 1:39 PM
in reply to: mrlister

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

Originally posted by mrlister Hi, I started swimming (literally) in Oct of 2014... I hired a coach and he and I worked together three days a week for three months... I have a pretty decent swim stroke now and some pretty good endurance. My question revolves around the breaking through the psychological limits of swimming longer distances. I currently swim around 500 meters but as soon as I hit 500 meters... I "feel" exhausted like I can't continue.. and I stop. Then I rest a minute and go another 300-400 meters with no issues... ? I have swam 1600 meters... but it was swimming 50 meters at a time with a ten second rest in between each 50 meter set How can I break this 500 meter "wall" ( for that matter any distance "wall" ) and start swimming longer distances?

Try going really slow on days that you are building distance.  If you are like me you are dialed into a stroke speed that is too fast for the longer distance (but works fine for shorter sets with rests in between).  In building up to my first race I did open water swims my last 5-6 weeks.  The plan was to started at 20 minutes continuous OW swimming (no stopping to turn around, no pushing off walls, etc.), then go to 25 minutes the next week, then 30 minutes, then 35 minutes, then 40 minutes.   When I was in the open water I was not worried about speed and slowed the pace way down.  I treated it like I would a long run which means instead of running 8 minute/mile pace like one might on a 5-10 mile run during the week it might be more like a 10 minute/mile pace for a 15-20 mile run.  For my long OW swimming I took it easy and just focused on keeping good body position and sighting.  When you don't have any walls to turn at and you are taking it slow and only increasing a little bit of volume each week the "mental wall" is less of a factor.  I have never wanted to stop 500 meters (or 1000 meters, etc) when I am focusing on keeping a straight line to a buoy 300 feet away or when I am in water over my head 50 feet from anything I can hold on to.  

So, I would just take it slower when you are trying to do longer continuous swims and increase little by little each week.

2015-06-25 2:36 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26


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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"
I know the feeling! I have completed one IM and 3 HIM, all of which were wetsuit legal. I've been swimming, although not as much as I should for a triathlete, for about 5 years now. I did a sprint distance race 2 weekends ago with a 1/2 mile swim and I am doing one Saturday that is 1/2 mile. I can only do about 250 yds consecutively using freestyle stroke. After that I have to breaststroke about every 3rd length of the pool. I just get winded and the anxious feeling builds up. I don't really have encouragement. Just letting you know you are not alone. I feel your pain!
2015-06-25 8:41 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

Originally posted by BlueBoy26

Originally posted by mrlister Hi, I started swimming (literally) in Oct of 2014... I hired a coach and he and I worked together three days a week for three months... I have a pretty decent swim stroke now and some pretty good endurance. My question revolves around the breaking through the psychological limits of swimming longer distances. I currently swim around 500 meters but as soon as I hit 500 meters... I "feel" exhausted like I can't continue.. and I stop. Then I rest a minute and go another 300-400 meters with no issues... ? I have swam 1600 meters... but it was swimming 50 meters at a time with a ten second rest in between each 50 meter set How can I break this 500 meter "wall" ( for that matter any distance "wall" ) and start swimming longer distances?

Try going really slow on days that you are building distance.  If you are like me you are dialed into a stroke speed that is too fast for the longer distance (but works fine for shorter sets with rests in between).  In building up to my first race I did open water swims my last 5-6 weeks.  The plan was to started at 20 minutes continuous OW swimming (no stopping to turn around, no pushing off walls, etc.), then go to 25 minutes the next week, then 30 minutes, then 35 minutes, then 40 minutes.   When I was in the open water I was not worried about speed and slowed the pace way down.  I treated it like I would a long run which means instead of running 8 minute/mile pace like one might on a 5-10 mile run during the week it might be more like a 10 minute/mile pace for a 15-20 mile run.  For my long OW swimming I took it easy and just focused on keeping good body position and sighting.  When you don't have any walls to turn at and you are taking it slow and only increasing a little bit of volume each week the "mental wall" is less of a factor.  I have never wanted to stop 500 meters (or 1000 meters, etc) when I am focusing on keeping a straight line to a buoy 300 feet away or when I am in water over my head 50 feet from anything I can hold on to.  

So, I would just take it slower when you are trying to do longer continuous swims and increase little by little each week.

This sounds nice at first, but swimming isn't quite like running. Instead of doing long continuous swims (especially on a weekly basis!), try treating every swim like an interval set. Not just VO2max type intervals, but more tempo like pacing or threshold paced intervals. You can still do the bigger sets just by doing more intervals that day. The long continuous doesn't help as much as people think and can slow down longer term development. When you can vary your speed for the different types of faster paced intervals and push yourself hard while consistently hitting a longer set, it really isn't that difficult to slow down a bit from there and get through the continuous part. 

2015-06-25 10:36 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

Originally posted by brigby1

This sounds nice at first, but swimming isn't quite like running. Instead of doing long continuous swims (especially on a weekly basis!), try treating every swim like an interval set. Not just VO2max type intervals, but more tempo like pacing or threshold paced intervals. You can still do the bigger sets just by doing more intervals that day. The long continuous doesn't help as much as people think and can slow down longer term development. When you can vary your speed for the different types of faster paced intervals and push yourself hard while consistently hitting a longer set, it really isn't that difficult to slow down a bit from there and get through the continuous part. 

If you have problems with not being able to go more than 500 meters give it a try.  I went from never having done a single swim training And not even being able to freestyle for 20 meters) to completing a 1.2 mile HIM swim in 35 minutes on 3-1/2 months of training.  You really can't go wrong with training the way you are going to compete.  That is even more true for beginners.  

In running there are walls.  When you hit mile 20 of your first Marathon you are going to want to stop.  If you can push yourself though that wall and say I just need to make it to the top of this hill, or I just need to make it the next mile marker, or I just need to go 100 more step, when you get to the top of that hill, or when you get to that mile marker, or when you get to the 100th step, you find that you didn't die by not stopping and by pushing through it you may even being feeling slightly better than you were at the moment when you were wanting to stop. It will keep you going and you will break through the wall.

The same is true for swimming.  If you know that you can go 500 meters and you goal is to not get out of the pool with out going 550 meter, when you get to 500 meters and want to stop, you already are going to have that goal in place and are going to be able to say just 50 more meters.  Then the next time you are trying to stretch the furthest you have gone, you will already know that you can go 550 meters.  You will know how it feels and how to work through it and when you get to 550 meter if you feel like stopping but the goal for that day in 600 meters, then again you already have the goal in place and are going to make it to the 600 meters mark.  

Once you have a swimming foundation you can do your H20 max type intervals and your doorway interval to increase your lung capacity and tone your swimming fitness.  Until you have that foundation you need to do to build it.  Swimming is 10% physical and 90% mental so if you have mental blocks at 500 meters you are much better off learning how to work through that than to jump to step four skipping over steps two and three.  My first Marathon I trained with guys that had done 10+ Marathons each.  They ran a lot of slow miles.  They told me if I could make it though an 18 mile run I could make it through a Marathon.  After gaining the experience of several marathons that is probably true, but for a first time Marathon I was in no way prepared even though I had completed the mileage.  The miles alone didn't teach me how to pace a marathon (which is the most important thing), I didn't know how to fuel my self during the race (this also would have been important to understand better), I didn't know what to expect the last 6 miles or have any type of a plan in place to work through the pain, etc.).  If you have a wall at 500 meters more fast short intervals are not going to help you very much if your event has a swim over 500 meters.  Getting though the distance so you know what it feels like, how to pace yourself, what problem areas you might run into etc. is part of the learning process.

Build the base first then you can focus on the speed.   



2015-06-26 7:28 AM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

Originally posted by BlueBoy26

Originally posted by brigby1

This sounds nice at first, but swimming isn't quite like running. Instead of doing long continuous swims (especially on a weekly basis!), try treating every swim like an interval set. Not just VO2max type intervals, but more tempo like pacing or threshold paced intervals. You can still do the bigger sets just by doing more intervals that day. The long continuous doesn't help as much as people think and can slow down longer term development. When you can vary your speed for the different types of faster paced intervals and push yourself hard while consistently hitting a longer set, it really isn't that difficult to slow down a bit from there and get through the continuous part. 

If you have problems with not being able to go more than 500 meters give it a try.  I went from never having done a single swim training And not even being able to freestyle for 20 meters) to completing a 1.2 mile HIM swim in 35 minutes on 3-1/2 months of training.  You really can't go wrong with training the way you are going to compete.  That is even more true for beginners.  

Congratulations on the swim. Be careful of what to make of that result though. I am assuming people want to get better at swimming as opposed to simply getting through it. Replicating the event isn't necessarily the best way to get better at it. And that actually applies to all 3 sports.

In running there are walls.  When you hit mile 20 of your first Marathon you are going to want to stop.  If you can push yourself though that wall and say I just need to make it to the top of this hill, or I just need to make it the next mile marker, or I just need to go 100 more step, when you get to the top of that hill, or when you get to that mile marker, or when you get to the 100th step, you find that you didn't die by not stopping and by pushing through it you may even being feeling slightly better than you were at the moment when you were wanting to stop. It will keep you going and you will break through the wall.

The same is true for swimming.  If you know that you can go 500 meters and you goal is to not get out of the pool with out going 550 meter, when you get to 500 meters and want to stop, you already are going to have that goal in place and are going to be able to say just 50 more meters.  Then the next time you are trying to stretch the furthest you have gone, you will already know that you can go 550 meters.  You will know how it feels and how to work through it and when you get to 550 meter if you feel like stopping but the goal for that day in 600 meters, then again you already have the goal in place and are going to make it to the 600 meters mark.  

Once you have a swimming foundation you can do your H20 max type intervals and your doorway interval to increase your lung capacity and tone your swimming fitness.  Until you have that foundation you need to do to build it.  Swimming is 10% physical and 90% mental so if you have mental blocks at 500 meters you are much better off learning how to work through that than to jump to step four skipping over steps two and three.  My first Marathon I trained with guys that had done 10+ Marathons each.  They ran a lot of slow miles.  They told me if I could make it though an 18 mile run I could make it through a Marathon.  After gaining the experience of several marathons that is probably true, but for a first time Marathon I was in no way prepared even though I had completed the mileage.  The miles alone didn't teach me how to pace a marathon (which is the most important thing), I didn't know how to fuel my self during the race (this also would have been important to understand better), I didn't know what to expect the last 6 miles or have any type of a plan in place to work through the pain, etc.).  If you have a wall at 500 meters more fast short intervals are not going to help you very much if your event has a swim over 500 meters.  Getting though the distance so you know what it feels like, how to pace yourself, what problem areas you might run into etc. is part of the learning process.

Build the base first then you can focus on the speed.   

Have you looked into a swimming program? This all sounds like jumping in the water with your run program. Regular, especially weekly, continuous swims are heavily over rated. You do need to build a foundation, but that is on swimming well. A more appropriate use would be strides and repetitions comparison. Establish some form. Swimming does take mental toughness, but your body has to know what to do. Then add in some more threshold and tempo based repeats. Like 100's or so. In order to develop in swimming you simply have to swim with good form. And that means pushing what you are capable of at the time. For a more solid program, the fitness is built on good form so you set up the workouts to where you can swim a lot of it with good form and push your fitness while doing so. It's not uncommon to have progress stagnate with just a slight drop in form.

2015-06-26 7:45 AM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"

Originally posted by BlueBoy26

Originally posted by brigby1

This sounds nice at first, but swimming isn't quite like running. Instead of doing long continuous swims (especially on a weekly basis!), try treating every swim like an interval set. Not just VO2max type intervals, but more tempo like pacing or threshold paced intervals. You can still do the bigger sets just by doing more intervals that day. The long continuous doesn't help as much as people think and can slow down longer term development. When you can vary your speed for the different types of faster paced intervals and push yourself hard while consistently hitting a longer set, it really isn't that difficult to slow down a bit from there and get through the continuous part. 

If you have problems with not being able to go more than 500 meters give it a try.  I went from never having done a single swim training And not even being able to freestyle for 20 meters) to completing a 1.2 mile HIM swim in 35 minutes on 3-1/2 months of training.  You really can't go wrong with training the way you are going to compete.  That is even more true for beginners.  

In running there are walls.  When you hit mile 20 of your first Marathon you are going to want to stop.  If you can push yourself though that wall and say I just need to make it to the top of this hill, or I just need to make it the next mile marker, or I just need to go 100 more step, when you get to the top of that hill, or when you get to that mile marker, or when you get to the 100th step, you find that you didn't die by not stopping and by pushing through it you may even being feeling slightly better than you were at the moment when you were wanting to stop. It will keep you going and you will break through the wall.

The same is true for swimming.  If you know that you can go 500 meters and you goal is to not get out of the pool with out going 550 meter, when you get to 500 meters and want to stop, you already are going to have that goal in place and are going to be able to say just 50 more meters.  Then the next time you are trying to stretch the furthest you have gone, you will already know that you can go 550 meters.  You will know how it feels and how to work through it and when you get to 550 meter if you feel like stopping but the goal for that day in 600 meters, then again you already have the goal in place and are going to make it to the 600 meters mark.  

Once you have a swimming foundation you can do your H20 max type intervals and your doorway interval to increase your lung capacity and tone your swimming fitness.  Until you have that foundation you need to do to build it.  Swimming is 10% physical and 90% mental so if you have mental blocks at 500 meters you are much better off learning how to work through that than to jump to step four skipping over steps two and three.  My first Marathon I trained with guys that had done 10+ Marathons each.  They ran a lot of slow miles.  They told me if I could make it though an 18 mile run I could make it through a Marathon.  After gaining the experience of several marathons that is probably true, but for a first time Marathon I was in no way prepared even though I had completed the mileage.  The miles alone didn't teach me how to pace a marathon (which is the most important thing), I didn't know how to fuel my self during the race (this also would have been important to understand better), I didn't know what to expect the last 6 miles or have any type of a plan in place to work through the pain, etc.).  If you have a wall at 500 meters more fast short intervals are not going to help you very much if your event has a swim over 500 meters.  Getting though the distance so you know what it feels like, how to pace yourself, what problem areas you might run into etc. is part of the learning process.

Build the base first then you can focus on the speed.   

"No" to most of this.  Especially the parts I bolded.

Ben (brigby) provides a pretty good response.

Swimming is more about technique than running.  It's also a non-impact sport.  Even though the primary performance limiter for all three disciplines in triathlon is the aerobic energy pathways, training for all three is not the same.  The majority of run training is long slow miles, because adaptations by the joints, connective tissues, and skeleton are the limiters.  In swimming, this isn't an issue, because it puts minimal stress on them.  Add in the importance of technique to swim well, and the result is the best way we know to train for swimming is to establish solid technique (balance, rotation, catch, pull, recovery, kick/stroke timing, etc), then layer on fitness with lots of hard intervals.  For endurance events, this is means very short rest periods (sometimes as short as 5 seconds just to "reset" your technique).  During long continuous swims, it's too easy to "zone out" and allow technique to break down.

 

2015-06-26 12:19 PM
in reply to: #5124791

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"
Can u just stop counting laps, so u have no idea what distance u swam?
2015-06-26 12:26 PM
in reply to: #5125039

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Subject: RE: Swim psychology... breaking the "wall"
I couldn't count laps even if I wanted to. I concentrate on technique and the feel of water.
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date : March 4, 2008
author : crowny2
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I’ve never been a great athlete but I have always "seen" myself doing well. Funny how that has helped me perform better when I probably would have seriously underperformed or worse, failed.