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Aging & Performance
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 2015-07-07 8:09 AM |
 DC |  Subject: Aging & PerformanceRemember seeing an interesting thread about this a few years back but can't find it. I have read that performance, measured by VO2 max (or in general), at some point declines w/age. So... I'll be 40 next year & my LT tests for this year on on par w/my LT tests from 5 years ago. In fact, & in grand part due to increased/smarter training, I PR'd w/a 3:26 marathon in the same year I PR'd in an olympic tri. So is "slowing" down a personal thing? My question is loaded b/c I can't imagine being able to run a "fast" marathon at 80. Hope this sparks an interesting conversation as there appear to be several, eh hem, "mature" BT'ers out there. |
| 2015-07-07 8:19 AM in reply to: Porfirio |
Champion  7136    Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance dumbing it down your performance *potential* is a building. The top of the building is your potential limit. After 30 or so you start losing floors to the height of your building. How much depends on genetics, but a little. It continues as you age. Now, if you were racing at the top floor at 20, you will be slower at 40. If you were racing halfway up the building at 20 and then started to close in on your top floor at 40, you'll be faster. Not as fast as you potentially *could* have been 20 years earlier, but faster than you were. Most recreational athletes don't have to worry about their age being the limiting factor. Hell Bostick didn't start setting records until he was older than most most athletes when they've been retired for a while. |
| 2015-07-07 8:27 AM in reply to: Porfirio |
Member 1748  Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Porfirio Remember seeing an interesting thread about this a few years back but can't find it. I have read that performance, measured by VO2 max (or in general), at some point declines w/age. So... I'll be 40 next year & my LT tests for this year on on par w/my LT tests from 5 years ago. In fact, & in grand part due to increased/smarter training, I PR'd w/a 3:26 marathon in the same year I PR'd in an olympic tri. So is "slowing" down a personal thing? My question is loaded b/c I can't imagine being able to run a "fast" marathon at 80. Hope this sparks an interesting conversation as there appear to be several, eh hem, "mature" BT'ers out there. I think it's well proven scientifically that your VO2 max will decline with age. How fast of a decline is more personal, and looking at age group results from 30 to 50 I would say it's not that much at least up to age 50. Since your faster now than you were 5 years ago probably is just that you are better trained now than you were. Remember that many people never reach there full potential. So at 35 if you were work to 75% of your potential(assuming VO2 max is your potential), you could still be setting PR's when you 50 and you VO2 max drops 5%. There are Vo2 max scales that give you an idea of how much it drops not sure if there are any showing identical athletes over a period of years. |
| 2015-07-07 8:37 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance I asked my ankles,my knees, my hips, my back, my neck, and my shoulders and they all told me that VO2 Max is hardly the only limiter on performance as I age. I'd be willing to bet it's rather far down the scale. Edited by Left Brain 2015-07-07 8:37 AM |
| 2015-07-07 8:45 AM in reply to: Porfirio |
Member 326 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance I turned 46 in January of this year. I did an olympic tri in 2:22 (PBed by 21 minutes), ran a 1:28 1/2 marathon (PBed by 7 minutes) and ran a 3:10 marathon (BQed by 15 minutes). I am only getting better with age. Now if I can just get better at those Ironman races I would be even happier. I find I train smarter, and race smarter. I know what to expect and just take training, and racing as it comes. Recovery is what takes longer for me. |
| 2015-07-07 8:56 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Porfirio Remember seeing an interesting thread about this a few years back but can't find it. I have read that performance, measured by VO2 max (or in general), at some point declines w/age. So... I'll be 40 next year & my LT tests for this year on on par w/my LT tests from 5 years ago. In fact, & in grand part due to increased/smarter training, I PR'd w/a 3:26 marathon in the same year I PR'd in an olympic tri. So is "slowing" down a personal thing? My question is loaded b/c I can't imagine being able to run a "fast" marathon at 80. Hope this sparks an interesting conversation as there appear to be several, eh hem, "mature" BT'ers out there. I had my VO2 measured a few years ago and recently as part of a University study. It has not budged. Also VO2max is probably more trainable than you will lose over a time period of a few years. I am racing 53 this year You probably have more chance of loss of muscle mass, T levels....etc etc as you hit the mid 40s and 50s. Recovery changes dramatically as well. Injuries can be much more frequent. Training smart allows you do beat out the effects of aging and eventually slow down the deterioration past your peek. PS : my standard for a 'fast marathon" is sub 3 and Ed Whitlock did it at 73 in 2h53 Edited by marcag 2015-07-07 9:13 AM |
| 2015-07-07 9:14 AM in reply to: Leegoocrap |
| DC | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Leegoocrap dumbing it down your performance *potential* is a building. The top of the building is your potential limit. After 30 or so you start losing floors to the height of your building. How much depends on genetics, but a little. It continues as you age. Now, if you were racing at the top floor at 20, you will be slower at 40. If you were racing halfway up the building at 20 and then started to close in on your top floor at 40, you'll be faster. Not as fast as you potentially *could* have been 20 years earlier, but faster than you were. Most recreational athletes don't have to worry about their age being the limiting factor. Hell Bostick didn't start setting records until he was older than most most athletes when they've been retired for a while. Cool. Thanks. So I wonder if some of the "more mature" BT'ers might be willing to share some of their aging/training secrets. Training smarter is obvious... but what about other things, like alcohol... as a lifestyle example. |
| 2015-07-07 9:31 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
New user 147 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Left Brain I asked my ankles,my knees, my hips, my back, my neck, and my shoulders and they all told me that VO2 Max is hardly the only limiter on performance as I age. I'd be willing to bet it's rather far down the scale. ^^^^This^^^^ whether it is an accumulation of injuries over time or slower recovery/healing with age, it seems our capacity for training starts to decrease surprisingly early in life, like perhaps in your 20's. Fortunately, fitness is the result of an accumulation of training over time and by training smart we can continue to improve for decades beyond that training capacity peak. Eventually, to use an earlier analogy, that building will be getting shorter quicker than you can run up the flights of stairs and you will slow down, postponing the age at which this occurs is key. From my experience at 41 and barring a "Hey, ya'll watch this" kind of injury, I anticipate at least several years more improvement, smart training could likely extend that to 50 years old and the decline after the peak shouldn't be too severe either so add on a few more years of the occasional PR as good conditions and good days coincide. |
| 2015-07-07 9:45 AM in reply to: mikec123 |
Veteran 627 Prairie Village, Kansas | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance (patiently waiting your peformance declines........) |
| 2015-07-07 10:16 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Maybe I'm a good example of performance decline LOL. I'll be 46 in a few weeks and have been running since age 10, competitively at times. My times now are pretty much 20% slower than they were at my peak, when I was in my late teens/early 20's and doing very high-powered training. I doubt I ever reached my potential, at least in the longer events (above 10 km) as athletes typically peak later than when I stopped running competitively, but maybe got close in the 5K and 10K and in swimming. Pretty much the same 20% figure holds true for swimming, at least the longer events (500m and 1500m) that were my specialty in high school and are close to what I train for now for tri. Since turning 40, I 've trained pretty hard for triathlon as well as some longer running events like HM. I would guess that I put in as many if not more hours per week than in my 20's, with a good balance of volume and intensity. In my case it's probably not due to lifestyle--I eat a pretty clean diet, never have more than one or two drinks a week, have always been active although not always full-on training for competition. I doubt more than a few weeks have gone by since age 13 that I haven't gone out at least twice and run four or five miles. My weight has varied a bit but I don't think I've ever been more than 15 pounds above my racing weight in college when I set my PB's and now I'm within a few pounds of it. So I'm a fairly "pure" example of performance decline due to age. I do have asthma (allergy-related) which became more severe after living in Beijing (probably due to pollution and lots of respiratory infections) for several years, and seems to worsen slightly the older I get--possibly this has influenced my performance somewhat but it is not normally an issue in day-to-day training or most of my races. I really don't feel like my ability to tolerate training has changed much, at least up to now. There are the occasional niggles, and stupid injuries from tripping over my own feet, etc. but I had those when I was younger, too. Endurance and what might be called resilience has always been my strength and I've always been able to recover fairly quickly from hard workouts, so maybe that's just my body. What I do feel has really fallen off is speed, which is probably mostly due to declining VO2 max. I know my best run and swim days are behind me but figure I still have a long way to go with the bike, which is new to me in terms of training/racing. I just enjoy the experience, do my best, and try not to stress about times too much. Edited by Hot Runner 2015-07-07 10:20 AM |
| 2015-07-07 10:28 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance It seems to me, and from the little I've read on the subject, that changes in elasticity of tendons and ligaments plays a significant role in loss of speed. I can see being faster later in life for people who weren't competitive when they were young....but for people who were truly competitive as youngsters....no way. |
| 2015-07-07 11:00 AM in reply to: Porfirio |
| 270 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Joe Friel wrote a book on this subject: "Fast After 50" (2015). This is a little older than you, but the data and ideas are probably applicable. He believes some performance loss is inevitable as you age but, with appropriate training, it can be less that most older athletes experience. These are, I believe, his key recommendations (memory is the second thing to go - after VO2max  ). 1. VO2max declines can be minimized with high-intensity training. Most older athletes tend toward long-slow-distance (easier, less chance of injury) but that contributes to the loss of VO2max 2. Strength training is important to minimize muscle loss. 3. Older athletes require longer to recover. He recommends going to 9-day training "weeks" if the standard week isn't giving enough rest. |
| 2015-07-07 11:06 AM in reply to: Porfirio |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Porfirio Hope this sparks an interesting conversation as there appear to be several, eh hem, "mature" BT'ers out there. Hell I am old but my wife would say far from 'mature". Old in body but young at heart. ;-) As for the question, I will never run fast now at 60 much less 80. However, I hope to keep some respectability as I approach that age. I hope to keep active. I will likely move to aqua/bike events but as long as I am enjoying myself, I see no reason to stop pushing myself. I look at my Dad who is 87. His goal is to every year shoot his age on the golf course. He still plays 3 days a week and has shot a couple of rounds of 85 this year. Bottom line, 'fast' is relative, I think effort is the more relevant measure. |
| 2015-07-07 11:10 AM in reply to: #5127113 |
| 19 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance 40 is so young. Not a tri-er, pretty much stick to running, a little biking recreationally, no swimming. But mid 60s completed my first 26.2 in 3:50, followed by 3:39 the following year, completed Boston Marathon this year, where i requalified to run Boston again next year. Train hard, but train smart. Age is a number, is all. This past weekend ran a 8k, beating 75% of all male finishers. Train hard, but train smart. |
| 2015-07-07 12:16 PM in reply to: Leegoocrap |
| 928 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Leegoocrap dumbing it down your performance *potential* is a building. The top of the building is your potential limit. After 30 or so you start losing floors to the height of your building. How much depends on genetics, but a little. It continues as you age. Now, if you were racing at the top floor at 20, you will be slower at 40. If you were racing halfway up the building at 20 and then started to close in on your top floor at 40, you'll be faster. Not as fast as you potentially *could* have been 20 years earlier, but faster than you were. Most recreational athletes don't have to worry about their age being the limiting factor. Hell Bostick didn't start setting records until he was older than most most athletes when they've been retired for a while. This is a perfect summary! |
| 2015-07-07 12:50 PM in reply to: EchoLkScott |
Veteran 740 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by EchoLkScott Joe Friel wrote a book on this subject: "Fast After 50" (2015). This is a little older than you, but the data and ideas are probably applicable. He believes some performance loss is inevitable as you age but, with appropriate training, it can be less that most older athletes experience. These are, I believe, his key recommendations (memory is the second thing to go - after VO2max ). 1. VO2max declines can be minimized with high-intensity training. Most older athletes tend toward long-slow-distance (easier, less chance of injury) but that contributes to the loss of VO2max 2. Strength training is important to minimize muscle loss. 3. Older athletes require longer to recover. He recommends going to 9-day training "weeks" if the standard week isn't giving enough rest. Great book....provides a lot of insights if you want to "manage the decline" effectively. |
| 2015-07-07 4:23 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 959 Greenwood, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Left Brain I asked my ankles,my knees, my hips, my back, my neck, and my shoulders and they all told me that VO2 Max is hardly the only limiter on performance as I age. I'd be willing to bet it's rather far down the scale. Agree with LB again. I didn't get into racing until I was 45. I got faster for a few years but my 51 year old body does not respond as well to intervals, hill repeats etc. I wake up with Snap, crackle and Pop and not talking about cereal. |
| 2015-07-07 4:27 PM in reply to: EchoLkScott |
| DC | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by EchoLkScott 2. Strength training is important to minimize muscle loss. This is why I'm always sympathetic to the "Do you weight train?" threads. |
| 2015-07-07 4:59 PM in reply to: Porfirio |
Member 1004 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance I starting getting into shape by running long distance at 50. I got better each year and then switched to triathlons. I just posted a new pb three weeks ago. I feel better now than I did when I was 40. I recognize my muscles are probably decreasing but my improvement in technique and better training and more training has more than made up for that decrease. |
| 2015-07-07 5:58 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance One caveat to the 20% decline I mentioned. Since 40 I've pretty much been training for tri, not run-only or swim-only events as in my teens and twenties. I have done a few run-focus blocks but even then I'm trying to maintain some level of swim and bike fitness. Perhaps if I focused on just one sport (or one per season as I did in HS) and managed to avoid injury while doing that, the slowdown would be a bit less dramatic in that event. In HS it was pretty much running exclusively in fall and spring; a mixed focus in summer, and high-volume swim training with maybe 1-2 maintenance runs a week in winter. No bike training. So that was probably more conducive to peak performances in stand-alone swim/run races. I'm actually surprised that in swimming I've not slowed down more, since I do so much less volume than when I was doing my fastest times (about 10,000 a week max now vs. 40-50,000 then). In HS, I ran pretty fast times off mileage that's not much higher than I do now, and have always been a bit surprised (and displeased) that my running has gone down the toilet with age as much as it has. I have definitely noticed that my hamstrings have gotten tighter the older I get, despite lots of stretching and strengthening. I generally do strength training 3 days a week during the school year for 30-40 minutes a session, and haven't noticed any significant declines in that area. Edited by Hot Runner 2015-07-07 5:59 PM |
| 2015-07-07 7:46 PM in reply to: 0 |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by Leegoocrap dumbing it down your performance *potential* is a building. The top of the building is your potential limit. After 30 or so you start losing floors to the height of your building. How much depends on genetics, but a little. It continues as you age. Now, if you were racing at the top floor at 20, you will be slower at 40. If you were racing halfway up the building at 20 and then started to close in on your top floor at 40, you'll be faster. Not as fast as you potentially *could* have been 20 years earlier, but faster than you were. Most recreational athletes don't have to worry about their age being the limiting factor. Hell Bostick didn't start setting records until he was older than most most athletes when they've been retired for a while. This is far and away the best analogy for potential performance as you age that I have ever heard - which is saying something after a degree in biology and a lifetime as an athlete. Thank you for sharing. Can I borrow your analogy? Edited by k9car363 2015-07-07 7:51 PM |
| 2015-07-08 2:53 PM in reply to: Porfirio |
Extreme Veteran 1234 West Michigan | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Someone on this site years ago said: "we're all an experiment of one" so there are definitely examples of every scenario out there to defy aging. However in general terms I believe there are three groups of people/athletes relevant to this topic. 1) People who weren't athletes in their younger years and picked up triathlon later in life. Depending on any combination of variables, they may be maintaining or even getting faster over the course of their triathlon experience however they can't compare their times to what was possible "from their youth." They will never know how fast they could have been which is the easiest way to determine how much they're losing as they age. 2) People who have always been athletes however they were more team sport driven, maybe an occasional 5K etc., however they also do not have comparative race times from their youth. 3) People who were competitive endurance athletes throughout their lives who can tangibly compare times as they age. I believe the first two groups may see improvement or at least consistent times as they age however that's more indicative of not knowing how fast they could have been when younger. The third group is the one where we need more examples such as hotrunner's. I believe she's representative of what happens as we age. There's only so much " train smart" that you can wring out of your body for speed when we age. In my personal life I know of zero athletes who are as fast now as they were when they were young and one of them just ran Boston at 52 years old. My point being, he ran Boston running 7:20's, which would blow the mind's of 95+% of adult on-set athletes, however because he was an athlete all his life, he knows how far he's slipped from his 6:15's in his late teens and 20's... And that's not even bringing bad knees, feet, back, shoulders etc., into the conversation that many of us who are in the 2nd group are experiencing currently... . |
| 2015-07-08 3:23 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Originally posted by TriMike Someone on this site years ago said: "we're all an experiment of one" so there are definitely examples of every scenario out there to defy aging. However in general terms I believe there are three groups of people/athletes relevant to this topic. 1) People who weren't athletes in their younger years and picked up triathlon later in life. Depending on any combination of variables, they may be maintaining or even getting faster over the course of their triathlon experience however they can't compare their times to what was possible "from their youth." They will never know how fast they could have been which is the easiest way to determine how much they're losing as they age. 2) People who have always been athletes however they were more team sport driven, maybe an occasional 5K etc., however they also do not have comparative race times from their youth. 3) People who were competitive endurance athletes throughout their lives who can tangibly compare times as they age. I believe the first two groups may see improvement or at least consistent times as they age however that's more indicative of not knowing how fast they could have been when younger. The third group is the one where we need more examples such as hotrunner's. I believe she's representative of what happens as we age. There's only so much " train smart" that you can wring out of your body for speed when we age. In my personal life I know of zero athletes who are as fast now as they were when they were young and one of them just ran Boston at 52 years old. My point being, he ran Boston running 7:20's, which would blow the mind's of 95+% of adult on-set athletes, however because he was an athlete all his life, he knows how far he's slipped from his 6:15's in his late teens and 20's... And that's not even bringing bad knees, feet, back, shoulders etc., into the conversation that many of us who are in the 2nd group are experiencing currently... . Your 3 categories are pretty good. My brother, 2 cousins, and I all ran sub 4:30 miles in high school (our grandparents and parents were all good athletes).......we are all in our 50's now. If anyone on this board thinks any one of us is still capable of running that time for a mile then you are delusional. My son and one of his cousins are doing the same now in high school.......only a bit faster. They have about 10-12 years to realistically improve and reach a peak.....they will never in their lives run faster than they will in these next years......no matter what anyone says. Edited by Left Brain 2015-07-08 3:27 PM |
| 2015-07-08 4:04 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Aging & Performance Then there's my hero Natascha Badman (sp?), who has posted top-ten finishes at Kona into her mid-40's. Clearly she's an athlete of exceptional talent (who perhaps would have been faster than Chrissie and Rinnie had she had in her prime the benefit of the advances in training methods, bikes, etc. that they enjoyed in theirs) who has been at it most of her adult life, but she really amazes me--not just her finishes but sticking with the training and racing for so long. Wow. |
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