General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Improving Cadence on the Bike Rss Feed  
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2015-07-09 8:56 AM

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Subject: Improving Cadence on the Bike
I have been working on improving my cadence the past couple of weeks with the goal of gaining speed and improving my run time. Does anyone know of a good website where I could learn more about how to systematically improve my cadence? I went out last night for a ride on a route that I had ridden for years and destroyed my previous PR by a few minutes - so I want to make cadence the focus of my training.

Thanks!


2015-07-09 9:00 AM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

What do you mean by "improve cadence"?  What's wrong with it?

The majority of evidence is that cadence should be self selected, and there is no ideal cadence, but most people will fall in the 80-100 range.

 

 

2015-07-09 9:41 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by TriMyBest

What do you mean by "improve cadence"?  What's wrong with it?

The majority of evidence is that cadence should be self selected, and there is no ideal cadence, but most people will fall in the 80-100 range.

 

 




Good question - I mean a couple of things 1) Finding the ideal cadence - I've been riding for 5 years now and just this week have started to think about raising my cadence instead of just dropping down a few gears to increase speed. I want to find a cadence that allows me to go fast while saving my legs for the run. Economy vs. speed. 2) Improving my pedal stroke. I need to figure out a way to not only improve my upstroke but also even out the power of my strokes between the right/left legs.

I know my cadence needs work- here's why. Last night I did a ride that I've done perhaps 50 times. Right now - I'm not at the peak of my training but I took off two minutes off my previous PR just by raising my cadence to 85+

So I guess my last question is - how do I know when I have found the right cadence for my style?
2015-07-09 10:06 AM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

Ride at varying cadences and ride as often as you can.  However, cadence should rarely be your focus (nor should 'pedal stroke' or 'evening out the power').  Focus on riding harder/faster.  That's how you find the "right" cadence.  And it may change over time or at different intensity levels (up or down).

2015-07-09 11:01 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

Being able to use a range of cadences is really the goal.  Yes, during short course races my average cadence is very close to 95, however I can ride anywhere from about 70-120 comfortably depending on the situation.  The way to "improve" it?  Ride using different cadences.

2015-07-09 11:14 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Ride at varying cadences and ride as often as you can.  However, cadence should rarely be your focus (nor should 'pedal stroke' or 'evening out the power').  Focus on riding harder/faster.  That's how you find the "right" cadence.  And it may change over time or at different intensity levels (up or down).




Thanks for the reply... I agree about riding often and varying cadence.... But what is the litmus test for the right cadence? I thought going "harder" would tire out the legs and faster revolutions would lead to more speed with less fatigue. How do you know when too hard - is too hard?


2015-07-09 11:38 AM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

Originally posted by Qua17
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Ride at varying cadences and ride as often as you can.  However, cadence should rarely be your focus (nor should 'pedal stroke' or 'evening out the power').  Focus on riding harder/faster.  That's how you find the "right" cadence.  And it may change over time or at different intensity levels (up or down).

Thanks for the reply... I agree about riding often and varying cadence.... But what is the litmus test for the right cadence? I thought going "harder" would tire out the legs and faster revolutions would lead to more speed with less fatigue. How do you know when too hard - is too hard?

The litmus test would be being able to sustain power. what you described with "harder" fits better with force. They are not the same thing even though there is a relationship. As cadence goes up, force will drop if power is kept the same. Power is an energy rate. Your muscles are metabolizing energy to use. So what you're looking for is the best way for your body to put out this energy.

 

2015-07-09 2:23 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Qua17
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Ride at varying cadences and ride as often as you can.  However, cadence should rarely be your focus (nor should 'pedal stroke' or 'evening out the power').  Focus on riding harder/faster.  That's how you find the "right" cadence.  And it may change over time or at different intensity levels (up or down).

Thanks for the reply... I agree about riding often and varying cadence.... But what is the litmus test for the right cadence? I thought going "harder" would tire out the legs and faster revolutions would lead to more speed with less fatigue. How do you know when too hard - is too hard?

The litmus test would be being able to sustain power. what you described with "harder" fits better with force. They are not the same thing even though there is a relationship. As cadence goes up, force will drop if power is kept the same. Power is an energy rate. Your muscles are metabolizing energy to use. So what you're looking for is the best way for your body to put out this energy.

 

Yep.  You focus on generating power and making the bike move faster.  However you do that is "right".

2015-07-10 10:21 AM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

I like to do training rides with power intervals. Low cadence 65-75 in the hardest gear I can manage for 5 or 10 minute intervals. Then a five minute time period in a easier gear with cadence of 85-90.
Repeat for at least a hour I would do a 15 minute warm up prior to doing this and spend some time riding in normal cadence after the intervals.
Good for building muscle power and it helped me find the best cadence to gain for me.
2015-07-10 11:39 AM
in reply to: GODAWGS


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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Maybe you could try some fast spin intervals where you're not focusing so much on going fast and putting out power . . . but instead choose a lower gear and spin it out.
2015-07-10 12:43 PM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Do you have a read-out on your bike that shows your current cadence? If not you can spot check it by counting for 10, 15, or 20 seconds and multiplying. For myself, I tried to expand my cadence comfort range. Sure, sometimes use a higher gear, slower cadence, and really push hard, but I think most people are quite familiar with that end of the range. I tried short sprints where I pushed to see how high I could get the cadence without bouncing on the seat. Smoothness is key. I've also tried more sustained efforts where the cadence doesn't get to an absolute peak but stays above what's comfortable for longer. As was mentioned above, cadence should not be your only focus but an occasional spin up or 3, or a cadence focused ride, might help.


2015-07-10 2:51 PM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
I ride on the weekends with a cycling group, only 1 other triathlete. I have noticed they tend to ride in a lower gear at a higher cadence than I do. I can sometimes match them but generally if I want to keep pace over what are rides in the 40-50 mile range I need to kick it to a higher gear and lower cadence.

Having ridden with them for a while, I have increased my cadence slightly. Ultimately what I think it has done is given me more options to generate the same speed. On routes than I am familiar with I have made some adjustments to how I ride them. Overall I am faster over those routes as a result.

As long as you are getting faster then whatever you are doing sounds like a good approach to me.

2015-07-11 8:23 AM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

Originally posted by Qua17
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Ride at varying cadences and ride as often as you can.  However, cadence should rarely be your focus (nor should 'pedal stroke' or 'evening out the power').  Focus on riding harder/faster.  That's how you find the "right" cadence.  And it may change over time or at different intensity levels (up or down).

Thanks for the reply... I agree about riding often and varying cadence.... But what is the litmus test for the right cadence? I thought going "harder" would tire out the legs and faster revolutions would lead to more speed with less fatigue. How do you know when too hard - is too hard?

You need a power meter. Without one, you are really just guessing and estimating the power you are producing. 

RPE and HR are both lagging indicators and indirect measurements of power, and also impacted by many other thigns.  Speed is a result, as is time on a course. The best way to measure power output is to measure it (surprise surprise).

Pedaling harder at lower cadence or lighter at higher cadence could be exactly the same wattage. Once you have a power meter, you can then tell if your FTP is higher if you ride at a higher cadence or higher if you ride at a lower cadence.

BTW, it's a myth that cycling at a higher cadence "saves the legs" for running. An often repeated, well cherished myth, but myth nonetheless. What usually happens is that people who ride at a higher cadence are producing lower power output than they would at a lower cadence, and this lower power output is what is "saving the legs".  An indirect outcome that could be equally replicated by simply pedaling softer without changing cadence.

TL;DR: it's power that matters, not cadence.

2015-07-12 8:55 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by brucemorgan

You need a power meter. Without one, you are really just guessing and estimating the power you are producing. 

RPE and HR are both lagging indicators and indirect measurements of power, and also impacted by many other thigns.  Speed is a result, as is time on a course. The best way to measure power output is to measure it (surprise surprise).

Pedaling harder at lower cadence or lighter at higher cadence could be exactly the same wattage. Once you have a power meter, you can then tell if your FTP is higher if you ride at a higher cadence or higher if you ride at a lower cadence.

BTW, it's a myth that cycling at a higher cadence "saves the legs" for running. An often repeated, well cherished myth, but myth nonetheless. What usually happens is that people who ride at a higher cadence are producing lower power output than they would at a lower cadence, and this lower power output is what is "saving the legs".  An indirect outcome that could be equally replicated by simply pedaling softer without changing cadence.

TL;DR: it's power that matters, not cadence.




Pretty much, and why I can't wait to fall into $$$ to get one. But with so many other necessities, it's going to be a while; therefore, one must go on something. For me, I have large legs and several years of hard heavy training on them, so my tendency is to hammer a little too hard in a lower gear resulting in a familiar usual pump that my body is used to. As I've had over a year now into more serious cycling, I will catch myself by monitoring cadence and how the legs feel. Granted, like Bruce said, this can just be relative to the wattage being put out, but it also lends into a little bit of another thread where I can listen to my body and recognize, hey, no need to push this gear at 80-85rpm, when I can maintain the same speed I want (in w/e the current conditions are (that's another frikn variable) at 90-95 or so without unnecessarily pumping my quads all up. Not an exact wattage power meter science, but when I do correspond that with HR and RPE (via quad feedback) it has helped me.

Edited by TJHammer 2015-07-12 9:02 AM
2015-07-13 9:30 AM
in reply to: GODAWGS

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by GODAWGS


I like to do training rides with power intervals. Low cadence 65-75 in the hardest gear I can manage for 5 or 10 minute intervals. Then a five minute time period in a easier gear with cadence of 85-90.
Repeat for at least a hour I would do a 15 minute warm up prior to doing this and spend some time riding in normal cadence after the intervals.
Good for building muscle power and it helped me find the best cadence to gain for me.


That's a great workout. I'm gonna steal it.

I've got a HIM coming up at the end of August and I really want to focus on bike speed. With it being the longest segment - I really want to improve my technique and time. Building up strength and improving cadence is part of the equation. Any other suggestions?
2015-07-13 9:36 AM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by brucemorgan

Originally posted by Qua17
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Ride at varying cadences and ride as often as you can.  However, cadence should rarely be your focus (nor should 'pedal stroke' or 'evening out the power').  Focus on riding harder/faster.  That's how you find the "right" cadence.  And it may change over time or at different intensity levels (up or down).

Thanks for the reply... I agree about riding often and varying cadence.... But what is the litmus test for the right cadence? I thought going "harder" would tire out the legs and faster revolutions would lead to more speed with less fatigue. How do you know when too hard - is too hard?

You need a power meter. Without one, you are really just guessing and estimating the power you are producing. 

RPE and HR are both lagging indicators and indirect measurements of power, and also impacted by many other thigns.  Speed is a result, as is time on a course. The best way to measure power output is to measure it (surprise surprise).

Pedaling harder at lower cadence or lighter at higher cadence could be exactly the same wattage. Once you have a power meter, you can then tell if your FTP is higher if you ride at a higher cadence or higher if you ride at a lower cadence.

BTW, it's a myth that cycling at a higher cadence "saves the legs" for running. An often repeated, well cherished myth, but myth nonetheless. What usually happens is that people who ride at a higher cadence are producing lower power output than they would at a lower cadence, and this lower power output is what is "saving the legs".  An indirect outcome that could be equally replicated by simply pedaling softer without changing cadence.

TL;DR: it's power that matters, not cadence.




I'm a teacher without a job for next year - so a power meter is going to have to wait. For now - I'm gonna focus on speed (mph) and cadence, and fatigue. If you have any other suggestions on how to use my own "built in" power meter - I'm up for the suggestions...

For the past week - I've ridden at a faster cadency than normal and my speed has gonna up tremendously so I think I've been grinding too hard for the past several years. I've usually averaged in the 13-14 mph range but since going to a cadence between 85-90 - my speed on shorter rides has gone up 2 mph. That seems like a big jump. Now I'm gonna try it out on my longer rides.

Thanks everyone for the advice - suggestions!


2015-07-13 9:42 AM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by Qua17

Originally posted by GODAWGS


I like to do training rides with power intervals. Low cadence 65-75 in the hardest gear I can manage for 5 or 10 minute intervals. Then a five minute time period in a easier gear with cadence of 85-90.
Repeat for at least a hour I would do a 15 minute warm up prior to doing this and spend some time riding in normal cadence after the intervals.
Good for building muscle power and it helped me find the best cadence to gain for me.


That's a great workout. I'm gonna steal it.

I've got a HIM coming up at the end of August and I really want to focus on bike speed. With it being the longest segment - I really want to improve my technique and time. Building up strength and improving cadence is part of the equation. Any other suggestions?


Ride lots, mostly hard, sometimes easy. Sometimes ride at a higher cadence than feels right and sometimes lower. The rest will pretty much take care of itself.

Shane
2015-07-13 10:34 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by Qua17

Originally posted by GODAWGS


Ride lots, mostly hard, sometimes easy. Sometimes ride at a higher cadence than feels right and sometimes lower. The rest will pretty much take care of itself.

Shane


How hard? As in, never mind your hear rate hard?
2015-07-13 10:38 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike

Originally posted by Porfirio
Originally posted by gsmacleod Ride lots, mostly hard, sometimes easy. Sometimes ride at a higher cadence than feels right and sometimes lower. The rest will pretty much take care of itself. Shane
How hard? As in, never mind your hear rate hard?

There is more than one level of "hard" to ride at. The statement kind of encompasses them all together to help simplify the idea that yes, you do need to ride well above easy. Sometimes HR works well for these intensities, others it may not.



Edited by brigby1 2015-07-13 10:39 AM
2015-07-13 10:48 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Improving Cadence on the Bike
Originally posted by Porfirio

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Ride lots, mostly hard, sometimes easy. Sometimes ride at a higher cadence than feels right and sometimes lower. The rest will pretty much take care of itself.

Shane


How hard? As in, never mind your hear rate hard?


During general training, lots of comfortably hard and hard; some moderate and some all out.

Otherwise, depends on the race but keeping some comfortably hard riding as part of the program almost always makes sense.

Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2015-07-13 10:49 AM
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