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2015-07-21 5:17 PM

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Subject: Swimming question
So I've read quite a bit about how swimming long distances in the pool (2000 yards straight) is essentially useless, and doing drills and intervals are the best way to make gains in the pool.

I'm come from a bit of a running background, so I'm slightly confused on the logic on it. In running, you want to mix internals with various long runs, etc. Why wouldn't it be the same case with swimming? Can someone explain a bit about the philosophy of essentially interval/drill only training for swimming?


2015-07-21 5:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming question
I'll answer this as a non-runner, non-swimmer ( )

The consensus is that to be fast, you need lots of intensity in the pool, but the fast swimmers also swim a ton of yards. This does seem to work, for me too, as I've gone from a newb mop swimmer to about 25% back in a fast ag with about 8 miles/wk and a lot of intervals in masters.

This is why tri disciplines seem to be at logical odds with each other, since fast runners these days do a lot of volume with a little track work. This makes zero sense to cyclists and swimmers who try to go all out as much as they can get away with.

Edited by Pacific John 2015-07-21 5:49 PM
2015-07-21 6:36 PM
in reply to: jeremyscarroll


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Subject: RE: Swimming question
New swimmer coming from 5-10k running here and am also curious.

The 1st time I swam 800 yards after 2 weeks training my lats were burning hours later so I doubt this is entirely true depending on your definition of long. 8 miles a week sounds really long to me.

I do sets to practice technique and hopefully increase my higher speed endurance under constant breathing rhythm, but use a very slow stroke per minute when going >300 yards varying breaths from 4,3,2 strokes as needed. Even marathon logic is odd to me, knowing you're ready if you've never done it?

I watched a youtube video of pro triathletes and they were swimming like crazy. I'm even more concerned.

Just some newbie perspective and experiences.
2015-07-21 6:56 PM
in reply to: runtim23

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
Some things to also consider with interval training is swim technique and form. I see it all the time at races where people look to have a good cadence, but not really gaining any distance, or at least as much as they should. With that I would say focus on form and technique to gain speed then work on intervals to get an increase in endurance. Just my 2 cents here.
2015-07-21 8:11 PM
in reply to: citiznkain

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
yes shorter intervals are better but I wouldnt say that doing a long distance swim is a bad thing or a waste of time. Especially as a beginner I felt that knowing I could do a 2k swim put my mind at ease and I knew that I could swim the distance in my first ever tri. The psychological advantage in knowing I could do it far outweighed the "wasted" swim.
2015-07-21 9:22 PM
in reply to: jeremyscarroll


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Subject: RE: Swimming question
IMO, it's a function of what your body can handle and how each sport affects your body. Consensus is that running hard every day would lead to injury. Therefore, you build a base of miles while dedicating a lesser percentage to intensity. But imagine if you could do speed work a majority of the time. . . you'd get pretty fast huh?

In swimming, you can work hard, repeatedly. So lets say you're doing one hour in the pool. You could swim steady for an hour at 2:00/100 . . . or you could swim harder at 1:40/100 taking 20 seconds rest to catch your breathe. You end up with the same 'base mileage' so to speak. . . but the 1:40/100 repeats are going to make you faster. You won't get any more benefit out of swimming a continuous slower pace. I'm not aware of any benefit of swimming slow unless it's that or nothing.





2015-07-21 9:46 PM
in reply to: jeremyscarroll

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
Here are my thoughts:
1) Swimming well is about effective technique. If you swim a long ways with poor technique, you won't realize much gain and may actually get worse..
2) Intense swim workouts don't take the same toll on the body that an intense run does. You can generally recover and repeat those workouts more frequently. The better and faster you swim, the better you swim.
3) There is value in going long. The value of an "endurance" swim is to focus on maintaining good technique as you grow tired. It's one thing to have good form after swimming for 15 minutes non-stop, another after an hour plus.
2015-07-21 10:04 PM
in reply to: ziggie204


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Subject: RE: Swimming question
Originally posted by ziggie204

In swimming, you can work hard, repeatedly. So lets say you're doing one hour in the pool. You could swim steady for an hour at 2:00/100 . . . or you could swim harder at 1:40/100 taking 20 seconds rest to catch your breathe. You end up with the same 'base mileage' so to speak. . . but the 1:40/100 repeats are going to make you faster. You won't get any more benefit out of swimming a continuous slower pace. I'm not aware of any benefit of swimming slow unless it's that or nothing.



now that makes sense, thanks
2015-07-21 10:50 PM
in reply to: jeremyscarroll


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Subject: RE: Swimming question

Actually, what you describe WOULD theoretically work for most AGers. Endurance sports and endurance sports, and even though swimming has a much bigger technique component, it is still an endurance sport that will respond to 'typical' endurance type training, and that includes long endurance efforts. 

 

There are a few main reasons why coaches generally recommend to not do those 'long steady swims', which are good ones:

 

- Most people who shoot for 'swim an hour steady' don't keep a close eye on their swim pace. And since swimming is not weight bearing, it's simply too easy for a beginner swimmer to start slacking off when it counts. Their pace will drop, and technique will start to deteriorate, and then benefits decrease.

 

- Almost all 'serious' swim teams/clubs have more than 1 person per lane swimming, and usually 3-5. In that sort of setup, it becomes logistically nearly impossible to do a long interval of 500+, since even a 5sec/100 difference will have the slower swimmer getting lapped by the fastest one in the lane. Weirdly, swimmers rarely acknowledge this reality, but it's definitely one of the big reasons why swim sets are broken up into shorter intervals.

 

- In swimming to swim faster, you really have to push the pace when it counts. That 'hour steady swim' doesn't push the pace. It's a perfectly good workout on its own and great when supplemented with short speedwork, but for a lot of beginners, this swim becomes their one-and-only important swim workout. Unlike running, where the weight-bearing nature, plus our natural human ability to improve run form and speed with no special form training by just running more, and at easy paces, swimming doesn't improve anywhere near as much by just 'swimming a lot, easy.' 

 

- The short intervals also allow you to recoup your form after a brief break, but I actually think this is overrated, even though theoretically it's the case. (I find I improve my ability to hold form much better on those fatiguing long intervals where I'm forced to actively do correct form when everything is super fatigued.)

 

But you are correct in that if you are disciplined enough to keep a close eye on your paces, and work hard, there is no reason why you will not benefit from those longer swim sessions. I made huge gains with these type of 60-90 long-interval workouts of 500-800, but I watch my pace on ever single 100 - no tuning out and 'swimming for time.'

 

 

 

2015-07-21 11:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming question
I think "interval/drill only" is taking it a bit too far, though, especially for a less experienced swimmer, certainly the MAJORITY of your workouts should focus on technique and shorter intervals, for the reasons others have mentioned. Longer endurance swims (maybe a few workouts a month, or a weekly OWS during the summer) can be useful in building a sense of confidence that you can go the distance in a race, and helping to develop a sense of pace. I'm an experienced swimmer and I do incorporate longer continuous efforts of 1000m plus maybe once every month or so. They are not easy efforts (unless I'm using them as recovery from something)--I'm doing them at the effort level I feel I could handle in a race situation. It definitely takes practice to find a pace that is challenging but that you can sustain steadily for 15-60+ minutes.

But endurance swims should not be a mainstay of your training. If lapping/ being lapped is an issue as it would be in many master's swims or crowded lap pools, then maybe save the endurance work for open water swimming, if you can find a safe venue with training partners or a kayak escort.

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-07-21 11:03 PM
2015-07-22 8:07 AM
in reply to: ziggie204

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
Originally posted by ziggie204

IMO, it's a function of what your body can handle and how each sport affects your body. Consensus is that running hard every day would lead to injury. Therefore, you build a base of miles while dedicating a lesser percentage to intensity. But imagine if you could do speed work a majority of the time. . . you'd get pretty fast huh?

In swimming, you can work hard, repeatedly. So lets say you're doing one hour in the pool. You could swim steady for an hour at 2:00/100 . . . or you could swim harder at 1:40/100 taking 20 seconds rest to catch your breathe. You end up with the same 'base mileage' so to speak. . . but the 1:40/100 repeats are going to make you faster. You won't get any more benefit out of swimming a continuous slower pace. I'm not aware of any benefit of swimming slow unless it's that or nothing.


Lots of great stuff by a host of people, but this made the most sense to me.

When I do my longer efforts, I have goals in mind, and push it as hard as a I can (will set my watch to alarm every 1:50 for instance, to keep me honest on pace, etc.).

Right now I'm do a strong majority of longer swims, and very few interval workouts. I'll try flipping that during the offseason this year and see how I improve.


2015-07-22 8:16 AM
in reply to: jeremyscarroll

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
I think a lot of good stuff has been said here.
I'll throw in my .02 worth just for good measure.
I'm a late-in-life swimmer who is doing a lot of longer distance swimming. 5-8K races currently with hopes of bumping that up to 10k and perhaps beyond.
While I agree that interval work is VERY important, I also feel it's important to get a long distance swim in every now and then, swimming at that interval pace. I'm pretty sure that "long distance is useless" theory stems from folks jumping in and just swimming 2K with no regard to pace or technique.
If you keep your pace up and hold your technique, I feel long distance work can be very beneficial.
2015-07-22 8:58 AM
in reply to: pwoolson

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Subject: RE: Swimming question

In my opinion, long steady state swimming isn't useless in that it's better than not swimming at all.  It's just not the best bang for your buck.

2015-07-22 9:30 AM
in reply to: runtim23

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
Have been a swimmer for long time. 8 miles/week is not much in the world of swimming. To put it in perspective my biggest weeks were 100k +(60 miles+). The distance guys used to do double that in the 70s and 80s. A drop dead sprinter might only do 8 miles... more likely more though.

Even on an endurance day 4-6 x 400m/500y is better than 2k or 3k straight. Long swims done continuously should be a once in a blue moon thing. Did one before I did IM Whistler and zero before the Masters Worlds 3k open water. I did race a 3k before each which is of more benefit. My 3k time was 37.40 (wetsuits never allowed in FINA races) and the pack I was in sprinted for 2nd in our AG. I was 4th (3rd in the group sprint).
2015-07-22 9:33 AM
in reply to: jeremyscarroll

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Subject: RE: Swimming question

Originally posted by jeremyscarroll
Originally posted by ziggie204 IMO, it's a function of what your body can handle and how each sport affects your body. Consensus is that running hard every day would lead to injury. Therefore, you build a base of miles while dedicating a lesser percentage to intensity. But imagine if you could do speed work a majority of the time. . . you'd get pretty fast huh? In swimming, you can work hard, repeatedly. So lets say you're doing one hour in the pool. You could swim steady for an hour at 2:00/100 . . . or you could swim harder at 1:40/100 taking 20 seconds rest to catch your breathe. You end up with the same 'base mileage' so to speak. . . but the 1:40/100 repeats are going to make you faster. You won't get any more benefit out of swimming a continuous slower pace. I'm not aware of any benefit of swimming slow unless it's that or nothing.
Lots of great stuff by a host of people, but this made the most sense to me. When I do my longer efforts, I have goals in mind, and push it as hard as a I can (will set my watch to alarm every 1:50 for instance, to keep me honest on pace, etc.). Right now I'm do a strong majority of longer swims, and very few interval workouts. I'll try flipping that during the offseason this year and see how I improve.

It's not just about pushing hard. You can do that on the bike too, and both cycling & running have longer intervals than swimming does. They'll have intervals of 10 minutes, 20 minutes, and even longer. Repeating these even. Swimming doesn't do that so much. It's also about swimming with good form. You do want to push, but also do so with about the best form you are capable of at the time. Breaking into the intervals helps to achieve that with the short rests allowing for a quicker recovery of the feel, but not so much that your body comes all the way down to truly resting all the time. Strikes a balance of how different aspects of your body recover. The fitness has to be built on swimming well. It's not one or the other, but both propping each other up.

2015-07-22 10:02 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Swimming question

Swimming threads are funny.  Everyone wants to be a faster swimmer.  The fastest swimmers all do interval work almost exclusively.  Most people learning to swim and trying to get faster don't want to do intervals and then give reasons why longer efforts make more sense.  But in the end, the fastest swimmers are still the people doing the interval work.

The fastest swimmers I know almost never swim further than a 200 in training, and even those are rare.

 

 

 



2015-07-22 11:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming question
Originally posted by Left Brain

Swimming threads are funny.  Everyone wants to be a faster swimmer.  The fastest swimmers all do interval work almost exclusively.  Most people learning to swim and trying to get faster don't want to do intervals and then give reasons why longer efforts make more sense.  But in the end, the fastest swimmers are still the people doing the interval work.

The fastest swimmers I know almost never swim further than a 200 in training, and even those are rare.

 

 

 




^ this.

But to meander on the topic a bit, most of us have wondered why the pool is about intensity, but the run is about easy volume. Evolution built us this way, but who knows quite why?

I've been thinking about training in terms of recovery: athletes trying to max our speed put in the most work and mileage we can and still recover. In terms of recovery time per week, running takes more than the bike and the pool. You can ride and swim long and *hard* every day, but not have the same intensity on the run without a guaranteed injury.

Here's an example, Chris Horner. He's 40+, and just about every serious cyclist in San Diego has ridden with him on group rides. He often rides 100+ miles per day, about 80% "easy," and goes to the wall with sprints and climbs for about 20 miles, about an hour a day. His training is less intense than many top pro's. I doubt the human body could do similar time and intensity on the run.

So the shortest answer: the run is probably harder on the body than the bike or the pool.

Edited by Pacific John 2015-07-22 11:20 AM
2015-07-22 12:46 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
I know... getting ready for a longer race I might do 10x400 once. I would much rather swim 30 -50x100 on pace with the tempo trainer. So much more productive.

I LOVE 20X75 faster than race pace... helps with 200/400 speed as well.

Btw
Ryan Cochrane is looking very good for worlds...
2015-07-22 1:25 PM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: Swimming question
I think it all comes down to purposeful training. Beginners need mainly to practice swimming with proper technique, so they should be doing mainly shorter sets that add up to race distance and longer, with enough recovery to maintain proper form. Proficient and elite swimmers should be doing lots of work at and under race tempo. Long, continuous swims with no particular objective are not very good use of training time, though better than no training at all. There should be a definite purpose--for a beginner, building confidence he/she can complete the distance, and/or improving comfort level with open water, wearing a wetsuit, etc. Beyond that, mainly useful to dial in pacing before an event, or as a time trial to gauge fitness. Just going out there and repeatedly swimming 2 km with no goal other than swimming 2 km doesn't make sense.

I have a colleague who did exactly that in prep for her first HIM in Danang--we often trained at the same time and I tried to encourage her to do other sets and even directed her to some of the websites I use that have suitable workouts (She's not a beginner and has reasonably good technique, just slow.) She said she didn't want to do anything complicated as she just wanted to finish. Whatever. She did finish--slowly. That "training" would bore me to tears!

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