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Breaststrokes anyone? (Page 2)
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 2015-07-27 8:12 AM in reply to: TriCDA |
 631   |  Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone?Originally posted by TriCDA So I spoke to a swim coach who teach mainly breaststrokes. He said that it would be an enormous time commitment to learn a new stroke and it would not guarantee an improvement in swim time. However I'll give it a try.. He might of been blowing you off. Is this a USA swim club or rec league? How old are the kids? Are there other coaches? The coaches comments would raise some red flags if he is the only coach. I assume that once the athletes get older they could become more specialized and they are different coach that focus on different strokes but this would be more for elite swimmers. In my observation breast stokers seem to be the most specialized. My 11 year old son swims on both club and rec teams. The coach teach all of the strokes. My son's best stroke is breast but it is still his slowest. |
| 2015-07-27 8:42 AM in reply to: Sidney Porter |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by Sidney Porter Originally posted by TriCDA So I spoke to a swim coach who teach mainly breaststrokes. He said that it would be an enormous time commitment to learn a new stroke and it would not guarantee an improvement in swim time. However I'll give it a try.. He might of been blowing you off. Is this a USA swim club or rec league? How old are the kids? Are there other coaches? The coaches comments would raise some red flags if he is the only coach. I assume that once the athletes get older they could become more specialized and they are different coach that focus on different strokes but this would be more for elite swimmers. In my observation breast stokers seem to be the most specialized. My 11 year old son swims on both club and rec teams. The coach teach all of the strokes. My son's best stroke is breast but it is still his slowest. Yeah....triathlon swim coaches aside.....I don't know a single good swim coach who doesn't try to get people to learn ALL of the strokes as a pathway to a better feel for the water and faster swimming. In time, there is no way you would be faster on breaststroke vs. crawl with proper coaching. |
| 2015-07-27 1:41 PM in reply to: #5130902 |
| 225 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? 1) definitely learn front crawl 2) for people who don't understand why people would find Breast stroke easier. Some people have a natural symmetrical stroke, but most people have a natural alternating stroke. I say this as a Breast stroker and having taught swimming lessons for years. I do swim free for races, but my Breast stroke is pretty decent. 3) if there is a coach who isn't sure you can learn freestyle you need to find a new coach. |
| 2015-07-27 2:22 PM in reply to: bigevilgrape |
Expert 972 Falls Church | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? In many races, I end up mixing freestyle and breastroke. For me breastroke actually provides a bit of a rest and I do not lose too much time. I can cover the 1 mile distance by mixing strokes in just around 30 minutes. |
| 2015-07-27 3:11 PM in reply to: hoffsquared |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by hoffsquared In many races, I end up mixing freestyle and breastroke. For me breastroke actually provides a bit of a rest and I do not lose too much time. I can cover the 1 mile distance by mixing strokes in just around 30 minutes. Than you need to build swim fitness, that way you can swim front crawl the whole way and finish in 27 minutes. |
| 2015-07-27 3:28 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Elite 4435 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by hoffsquared In many races, I end up mixing freestyle and breastroke. For me breastroke actually provides a bit of a rest and I do not lose too much time. I can cover the 1 mile distance by mixing strokes in just around 30 minutes. Than you need to build swim fitness, that way you can swim front crawl the whole way and finish in 27 minutes. Where is the damn like button |
| 2015-07-27 3:47 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 701 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? At the very least, watch some vids on Youtube and get in the pool and give it a go. And then do it again.....and again...and again. I had no idea how to do a flip turn. Watched a few videos and started mixing them in. A couple weeks later, they weren't "old hat", but I could do them consistently with a little focus. Still several months later they're not old hat, but then again, I don't need to focus so much. It's more of a conscious choice now for me. I didn't think it was something I'd learn as an adult. Even more importantly, I can swim more or less indefinitely with freestyle. In the past with anything over 700 meters or so, there'd be some breast stroking, roll over on the back for a breather, lots of goggle fiddling, and maybe a doggy paddle or two. Pretty happy with my 36 minutes of uninterrupted freestyle (except for the occasional buoy that pops up right in front of you....that darn sun can wreak havoc on sighting efforts) over 1.2 Statistically, it's by far my best leg against others in my age group. For me, my money would be better spent on a better bike, or some help with running. Edited by jhaack39 2015-07-27 3:48 PM |
| 2015-07-27 4:39 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 216 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? As a highly proficient swimmer with millions of yards of experience, I get why some may find breaststroke easier. At maximum effort, I find it more demanding that freestyle. I find it less demanding, however, to swim a slow, easy breaststroke than a slow, easy freestyle....despite the fact that I'm a "freestyle specialist." I think it's because it's easier to stay balanced fore/aft with breaststroke, and therefore much easier to glide between strokes. Good freestyle balance demands more skill and more core engagement. If I slow my freestyle down too much, my legs want to drop and my forward hand wants to drop and slide out, both of which are detrimental to efficiency. Fighting those tendencies increases the effort. There's a critical freestyle speed that if I go below, I end up just as tired as if I'd swam it faster. All that said, freestyle, swum correctly, should be the faster stroke over any distance. And it should be less demanding on your legs, too. If you really want to improve your triathlon performance, you need to develop your freestyle stroke mechanics, then develop the stroke-specific endurance to sustain yourself above your "critical speed." Edited by gary p 2015-07-27 4:49 PM |
| 2015-07-27 8:06 PM in reply to: gary p |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by gary p As a highly proficient swimmer with millions of yards of experience, I get why some may find breaststroke easier. At maximum effort, I find it more demanding that freestyle. I find it less demanding, however, to swim a slow, easy breaststroke than a slow, easy freestyle....despite the fact that I'm a "freestyle specialist." I think it's because it's easier to stay balanced fore/aft with breaststroke, and therefore much easier to glide between strokes. Good freestyle balance demands more skill and more core engagement. If I slow my freestyle down too much, my legs want to drop and my forward hand wants to drop and slide out, both of which are detrimental to efficiency. Fighting those tendencies increases the effort. There's a critical freestyle speed that if I go below, I end up just as tired as if I'd swam it faster. All that said, freestyle, swum correctly, should be the faster stroke over any distance. And it should be less demanding on your legs, too. If you really want to improve your triathlon performance, you need to develop your freestyle stroke mechanics, then develop the stroke-specific endurance to sustain yourself above your "critical speed." This is what I was alluding to. I was interested in seeing what people who might not have a swim specific background thought. But I also think it got confused with "racing". I swam free and fly mostly but also 100/200 IM. I've always felt it was the easiest stroke but the difference for me I think comes from fly. Then again it was my weakest stroke so what do I know. I swim a mixed breast and back set almost every workout as a recovery. |
| 2015-07-27 8:47 PM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Originally posted by gary p As a highly proficient swimmer with millions of yards of experience, I get why some may find breaststroke easier. At maximum effort, I find it more demanding that freestyle. I find it less demanding, however, to swim a slow, easy breaststroke than a slow, easy freestyle....despite the fact that I'm a "freestyle specialist." I think it's because it's easier to stay balanced fore/aft with breaststroke, and therefore much easier to glide between strokes. Good freestyle balance demands more skill and more core engagement. If I slow my freestyle down too much, my legs want to drop and my forward hand wants to drop and slide out, both of which are detrimental to efficiency. Fighting those tendencies increases the effort. There's a critical freestyle speed that if I go below, I end up just as tired as if I'd swam it faster. All that said, freestyle, swum correctly, should be the faster stroke over any distance. And it should be less demanding on your legs, too. If you really want to improve your triathlon performance, you need to develop your freestyle stroke mechanics, then develop the stroke-specific endurance to sustain yourself above your "critical speed." This is what I was alluding to. I was interested in seeing what people who might not have a swim specific background thought. But I also think it got confused with "racing". I swam free and fly mostly but also 100/200 IM. I've always felt it was the easiest stroke but the difference for me I think comes from fly. Then again it was my weakest stroke so what do I know. I swim a mixed breast and back set almost every workout as a recovery. I asked this before too, what type of breast stroke are we talking about? Aggressive competition style or easy-does-it-keep-your-hair-dry? The former is quite demanding and the latter is rather relaxing. |
| 2015-07-27 9:56 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Originally posted by gary p As a highly proficient swimmer with millions of yards of experience, I get why some may find breaststroke easier. At maximum effort, I find it more demanding that freestyle. I find it less demanding, however, to swim a slow, easy breaststroke than a slow, easy freestyle....despite the fact that I'm a "freestyle specialist." I think it's because it's easier to stay balanced fore/aft with breaststroke, and therefore much easier to glide between strokes. Good freestyle balance demands more skill and more core engagement. If I slow my freestyle down too much, my legs want to drop and my forward hand wants to drop and slide out, both of which are detrimental to efficiency. Fighting those tendencies increases the effort. There's a critical freestyle speed that if I go below, I end up just as tired as if I'd swam it faster. All that said, freestyle, swum correctly, should be the faster stroke over any distance. And it should be less demanding on your legs, too. If you really want to improve your triathlon performance, you need to develop your freestyle stroke mechanics, then develop the stroke-specific endurance to sustain yourself above your "critical speed." This is what I was alluding to. I was interested in seeing what people who might not have a swim specific background thought. But I also think it got confused with "racing". I swam free and fly mostly but also 100/200 IM. I've always felt it was the easiest stroke but the difference for me I think comes from fly. Then again it was my weakest stroke so what do I know. I swim a mixed breast and back set almost every workout as a recovery. I asked this before too, what type of breast stroke are we talking about? Aggressive competition style or easy-does-it-keep-your-hair-dry? The former is quite demanding and the latter is rather relaxing. More to the middle. I probably misread between what the OP was saying vs Shane's advice. what I was thinking is since people default to breaststroke in a tri swim when tired or if they become anxious it's the easiest stroke for them. Just to finish the swim leg, not so much "race" Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2015-07-27 9:58 PM |
| 2015-07-28 5:46 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
| 216 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Originally posted by gary p As a highly proficient swimmer with millions of yards of experience, I get why some may find breaststroke easier. At maximum effort, I find it more demanding that freestyle. I find it less demanding, however, to swim a slow, easy breaststroke than a slow, easy freestyle....despite the fact that I'm a "freestyle specialist." I think it's because it's easier to stay balanced fore/aft with breaststroke, and therefore much easier to glide between strokes. Good freestyle balance demands more skill and more core engagement. If I slow my freestyle down too much, my legs want to drop and my forward hand wants to drop and slide out, both of which are detrimental to efficiency. Fighting those tendencies increases the effort. There's a critical freestyle speed that if I go below, I end up just as tired as if I'd swam it faster. All that said, freestyle, swum correctly, should be the faster stroke over any distance. And it should be less demanding on your legs, too. If you really want to improve your triathlon performance, you need to develop your freestyle stroke mechanics, then develop the stroke-specific endurance to sustain yourself above your "critical speed." This is what I was alluding to. I was interested in seeing what people who might not have a swim specific background thought. But I also think it got confused with "racing". I swam free and fly mostly but also 100/200 IM. I've always felt it was the easiest stroke but the difference for me I think comes from fly. Then again it was my weakest stroke so what do I know. I swim a mixed breast and back set almost every workout as a recovery. I asked this before too, what type of breast stroke are we talking about? Aggressive competition style or easy-does-it-keep-your-hair-dry? The former is quite demanding and the latter is rather relaxing. Something in between? The OP mentioned a mile in 40 minutes. That's a little faster than "easy does it, keep your hair dry" I'm talking about something in the ~1:50/100 yard pace (in the pool). For me, freestyling that slow is more work than freestyling at ~1:30/100. |
| 2015-07-28 7:07 AM in reply to: mike761 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by hoffsquared Than you need to build swim fitness, that way you can swim front crawl the whole way and finish in 27 minutes. In many races, I end up mixing freestyle and breastroke. For me breastroke actually provides a bit of a rest and I do not lose too much time. I can cover the 1 mile distance by mixing strokes in just around 30 minutes. Maybe, but it's more likely that they need to fix technique issues, then layer fitness on top of that...and finish in under 25 minutes.
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| 2015-07-28 7:49 AM in reply to: gary p |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by gary p Originally posted by brigby1 Something in between? The OP mentioned a mile in 40 minutes. That's a little faster than "easy does it, keep your hair dry" I'm talking about something in the ~1:50/100 yard pace (in the pool). For me, freestyling that slow is more work than freestyling at ~1:30/100. Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Originally posted by gary p As a highly proficient swimmer with millions of yards of experience, I get why some may find breaststroke easier. At maximum effort, I find it more demanding that freestyle. I find it less demanding, however, to swim a slow, easy breaststroke than a slow, easy freestyle....despite the fact that I'm a "freestyle specialist." I think it's because it's easier to stay balanced fore/aft with breaststroke, and therefore much easier to glide between strokes. Good freestyle balance demands more skill and more core engagement. If I slow my freestyle down too much, my legs want to drop and my forward hand wants to drop and slide out, both of which are detrimental to efficiency. Fighting those tendencies increases the effort. There's a critical freestyle speed that if I go below, I end up just as tired as if I'd swam it faster. All that said, freestyle, swum correctly, should be the faster stroke over any distance. And it should be less demanding on your legs, too. If you really want to improve your triathlon performance, you need to develop your freestyle stroke mechanics, then develop the stroke-specific endurance to sustain yourself above your "critical speed." This is what I was alluding to. I was interested in seeing what people who might not have a swim specific background thought. But I also think it got confused with "racing". I swam free and fly mostly but also 100/200 IM. I've always felt it was the easiest stroke but the difference for me I think comes from fly. Then again it was my weakest stroke so what do I know. I swim a mixed breast and back set almost every workout as a recovery. I asked this before too, what type of breast stroke are we talking about? Aggressive competition style or easy-does-it-keep-your-hair-dry? The former is quite demanding and the latter is rather relaxing. I'm not sure what between would be. I mean, I try for the competition stroke, but no one is going to mistake me for being a swimmer seeing that! |
| 2015-07-28 8:55 AM in reply to: TriCDA |
| 1731 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Hi, I want to add a couple things to this discussion. Freestyle (front crawl) is faster in the case you know both styles and have proper technique. I swim breaststroke (learned a proper technique about a month ago) and did 100 yards in 2 minutes (which I consider good for someone who has started training a little over a month ago). My speed for front crawl does not exist. I took lessons, I was practicing every day, I watched all youtube videos, I read tons of articles, tips, etc - I was not able to do one lap. I just completed my first sprint tri and I was faster than 2/3 of other athletes swimming other styles. I have another race, open water, coming next month and there is no way I would learn proper front crawl, so I just keep mastering my breaststroke. For next year, when I want to do OD, I will try to learn front crawl. Although, I will have about 10 months, and I am considering individual training. One thing I read about different styles used in triathlons: it's good to know both techniques, because you never know if there will be a condition you may need to go with breaststroke. |
| 2015-07-28 9:35 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by brigby1 I'm not sure what between would be. I mean, I try for the competition stroke, but no one is going to mistake me for being a swimmer seeing that! By in between I mean starting out swimming freestyle but getting tired,
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| 2015-07-28 9:39 AM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Originally posted by brigby1 I'm not sure what between would be. I mean, I try for the competition stroke, but no one is going to mistake me for being a swimmer seeing that! By in between I mean starting out swimming freestyle but getting tired,
When I said it was hard, I meant it was hard to do right (as in fast, efficient, for pool racing). To use as a recovery or to just get from A to B, it's probably a very good choice as it's also very easy to go easy. |
| 2015-07-28 9:49 AM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano When Shane said he thought breaststroke was the hardest stroke it got me thinking about all the swimming threads in which breaststroke comes up. Usually people suggesting not doing it because of the kick. In this thread a few others have mentioned they thought it was hardest stroke so I found it curious that newer swimmers and probably more self taught swimmers would go to that stroke. To be clear, I said breast (done properly) is harder than front crawl, not the hardest stroke. That honour, IMO, goes to fly without question. Shane |
| 2015-07-28 10:11 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Sorry for the miss quote, I should have gone back to the beginning and checked. That's what got me thinking, "breast (done properly) is harder than front crawl". |
| 2015-07-28 12:06 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 631 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano When Shane said he thought breaststroke was the hardest stroke it got me thinking about all the swimming threads in which breaststroke comes up. Usually people suggesting not doing it because of the kick. In this thread a few others have mentioned they thought it was hardest stroke so I found it curious that newer swimmers and probably more self taught swimmers would go to that stroke. To be clear, I said breast (done properly) is harder than front crawl, not the hardest stroke. That honour, IMO, goes to fly without question. Shane I would argue that breast from a technical standpoint is harder, but fly is physically harder. A lot of breast stroke that you randomly see at the pool are not technically breast stroke if we are using the FINA / USA swimming definitions. You see a lot of scissor kicks, hands going below the waist and feet not turned out. The beginner self taught reference that pizzano mention is probably not a legal form of breast. Obviously that doesn't matter for Tri's. But if we are using the term breast stroke one would envision the proper stroke. Edited by Sidney Porter 2015-07-28 12:08 PM |
| 2015-07-28 12:06 PM in reply to: jobaxas |
Expert 972 Falls Church | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by jobaxas Originally posted by mike761 Where is the damn like button Originally posted by hoffsquared Than you need to build swim fitness, that way you can swim front crawl the whole way and finish in 27 minutes. In many races, I end up mixing freestyle and breastroke. For me breastroke actually provides a bit of a rest and I do not lose too much time. I can cover the 1 mile distance by mixing strokes in just around 30 minutes. I've been able to get through 2-3 races all freestyle and, yes, my time ends up being between 25-27 minutes. But this is a swim fitness that I have trouble maintaining for very long. I have noticed that if I end up using too much breastroke while in a wetsuit, my legs are toast by the run. |
| 2015-07-28 12:16 PM in reply to: TriCDA |
| 631 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? I wonder if trudgen or even side stroke would be more efficient than breast. I think the kick takes up less room than the breast kick although there is still a chance of kicking someone. |
| 2015-07-28 12:18 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano When Shane said he thought breaststroke was the hardest stroke it got me thinking about all the swimming threads in which breaststroke comes up. Usually people suggesting not doing it because of the kick. In this thread a few others have mentioned they thought it was hardest stroke so I found it curious that newer swimmers and probably more self taught swimmers would go to that stroke. To be clear, I said breast (done properly) is harder than front crawl, not the hardest stroke. That honour, IMO, goes to fly without question. Shane Fly is the physically hardest stroke, I don't think you could find a competitive swimmer to disagree. When given my choice(back in the day) of fly or breastroke on choice swims I always did fly. That's because my legs did not move properly to do breastroke correctly and if you didn't do the stroke right coach would bounce a waterpolo ball off your head. ( a motivational technique that is now discouraged  |
| 2015-07-28 12:35 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone?
Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by gsmacleod Fly is the physically hardest stroke, I don't think you could find a competitive swimmer to disagree. When given my choice(back in the day) of fly or breastroke on choice swims I always did fly. That's because my legs did not move properly to do breastroke correctly and if you didn't do the stroke right coach would bounce a waterpolo ball off your head. ( a motivational technique that is now discouragedOriginally posted by Goggles Pizzano When Shane said he thought To be clear, I said breast (done properly) is harder than front crawl, not the hardest stroke. That honour, IMO, goes to fly without question. Shane breaststroke was the hardest stroke it got me thinking about all the swimming threads in which breaststroke comes up. Usually people suggesting not doing it because of the kick. In this thread a few others have mentioned they thought it was hardest stroke so I found it curious that newer swimmers and probably more self taught swimmers would go to that stroke. Perhaps, but from what I've seen a flying kickboard has taken it's place. |
| 2015-07-28 12:55 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Breaststrokes anyone? Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by gsmacleod Fly is the physically hardest stroke, I don't think you could find a competitive swimmer to disagree. When given my choice(back in the day) of fly or breastroke on choice swims I always did fly. That's because my legs did not move properly to do breastroke correctly and if you didn't do the stroke right coach would bounce a waterpolo ball off your head. ( a motivational technique that is now discouragedOriginally posted by Goggles Pizzano When Shane said he thought To be clear, I said breast (done properly) is harder than front crawl, not the hardest stroke. That honour, IMO, goes to fly without question. Shane breaststroke was the hardest stroke it got me thinking about all the swimming threads in which breaststroke comes up. Usually people suggesting not doing it because of the kick. In this thread a few others have mentioned they thought it was hardest stroke so I found it curious that newer swimmers and probably more self taught swimmers would go to that stroke. If you can get the correct two-kick rhythm down, then fly becomes a LOT easier. Most folks struggle trying to do a single kick and lose their momentum every stroke cycle. That's when it gets to be hard. My masters coach is working with me now to ditch my 40 year old breast stroke technique with a low, gliding recovery for a modern high arm recovery technique. It transforms it from a dog paddle/recovery stroke into hard work, but lots faster once you get is down. Mark
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