General Discussion Triathlon Talk » First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!) Rss Feed  
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2015-08-03 12:28 PM

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Subject: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Just getting back in the game after several years (4) of no real endurance anything. I've joined an outdoor 30yd pool that's beautiful in that I have a key and can swim whenever I please. When I ran a few tris before, swimming was ALWAYS my weak point. I'm pretty sure the farthest I've ever swam is 300M, non-stop.

With the exception of two short sprints, everything I plan to do next year is open water.....wetsuit legal. Right now I'm just re-familiarizing myself with water (I've had 2 swim workouts of about 500yds total - each swim). I plan to swim 5X week, getting started back. To mimic the wetsuit, I fully intend to swim only with the pull buoy in my workouts, at least for a while. I'm also going to incorporate a front crawl specific snorkel in quite a bit of my workouts.

These are my intentions.......but, I'm here ...obviously....seeking feedback from those who know better than I. My thinking (again....as a novice) is I can get used to the wetsuit feel without the wetsuit.....with the pull buoy. If it allows me to swim more/further....that's all the better. I also think the snorkel will allow me to work on the technical aspects of the swim, without having to worry about my breathing. Since I'll naturally not have to worry about breathing while I'm using the snorkel. I'll use the snorkel to work on my stroke.....AND I plan to do a lot more ydg than I'd normally be able to do without it.

I guess my question is.......what could it hurt? To be completely honest, I'll probably use the pull buoy AND the snorkel to complete sets I normally wouldn't be able to do without either. If using these allows me to swim more, again.....what could it hurt? I fully intend to mix in sets with neither of the aids. But, I also plan to use them both a LOT.

Your thoughts?


2015-08-03 12:31 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)

Instead of using the pull buoy as a crutch, I'd recommend improving your kick. Yes a wetsuit will give you more buoyancy in your legs, but relying on a pull buoy to try to simulate that buoyancy will hurt vs help you.

2015-08-03 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
How (specifically) can mimicking the position the wetsuit will put me in hurt?

Let me ask that another way......

What if I were swimming ALL of my workouts in the same wetsuit I will be racing in?

Edited by nc452010 2015-08-03 12:47 PM
2015-08-03 12:50 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)

What I mean is that if you want to get better at swimming, work on your kick instead of avoiding it during training. It can be a useful aid if used in moderation, but you shouldn't be using it all the time.

2015-08-03 1:06 PM
in reply to: trijamie

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Here's where I got the idea.............

http://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/
2015-08-03 1:12 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
well....I'm certainly not the best swimmer. but I do nearly all of my training in the pool and 100% of my races in open water with a wetsuit.

I think it's a fine plan as a START just to get you able to complete some yardage....but then I think you should wean yourself off of using both aids. so that eventually you are completing your entire yardage without a snorkel and with only maybe 200-600yd with pull buoy.


2015-08-03 1:21 PM
in reply to: themissj1981

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
^That's the plan.

I'm either going to swim the ydg -- aided. Or, I'm not going to be able to swim the ydg. (at this point in time). Again, my thinking is more (albeit aided) is better than none.
2015-08-03 1:32 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)

If you're using the snorkel and pull buoy as aides to assist on improving specific aspects of your stroke, then there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

In particular, a snorkel can be a big help in working on developing a balanced catch & pull.  

However, I do agree that using a pull buoy to simulate the buoyancy of a wetsuit will likely inhibit the development of a good kick technique due to the fact that it restricts the movement of your legs.   

As a matter of full disclosure, I don't like swimming in a wetsuit unless due to water temperature.  The extra buoyancy seems to screw up my stroke.  Fortunately I live in FL and don't need to use it more than one race/year.  The main reason I bought mine was so I could train in OW in the Gulf of Mexico year 'round.

Mark 

 

2015-08-03 1:56 PM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)

First off, welcome back.  Glad to see you back at it.  I think I remember you from back then.

In March of 2010, I had my first pool workout.  I could barely do 50 yards non-stop.  My legs dragged so far down behind me that I looked like an "L' turned on its side.  I had the same thought that you are having...will a pull buoy allow me to get more yardage in, and therefore accelerate my development?  The answer turned out to be...well, sorta.  I used the beginner's swimming plan here on BT (I think Shane McLeod wrote it), which is basically a "couch to 750M" plan over 12 weeks.  I did some of the longer intervals with the buoy.  I got through it.  I did my race, and I was next to last out of the water and my wife was worried she'd have to come after me.  :-)

I would suggest the following.  Have a it wtih the buoy, but make sure you do a certain amount per session without it, and build each time or at least over time.  Start with something like 10 x 30y on :45 (or whatever gives you a few seconds recovery each time) and move on to longer intervals and sets.

I think as new triathletes we become more worried about the destination (finishing the race swim) than the journey (learning to swim properly, efficiently, and most importantly to you and your competitors, safely).  It takes patience, practice, and lots of questions here on BT.  :-)

2015-08-03 2:15 PM
in reply to: nc452010


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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Keeping in mind that I come from a swimming background (I swam competitively for 12 years) and not a tri background (haven't completed my first race yet), I'll give you my $0.02 worth (and it may be worth less than that, lol):

Using a snorkel and pull buoy for a portion of your swim as a drill would be fine (as others mentioned both tools can be used to work on getting a really good, proper pull). Using them for a whole work out isn't productive because at some point you'll need to practice as you'll race - using a proper crawl technique.

If you are only doing 500 yard work outs, I would do about 200 of it with the snorkel and buoy and do it as a drill (use paddles, finger drag, touch your thumbs to your waste, etc) and concentrate on a good body roll. I would swim another of it 250 and maybe throw in a 50 kick. Even though you won't be kicking hard, you still want to have good technique with the kick. It will give you a boost if you need it and a proper kick will save you energy over a poor kick.

2015-08-03 3:52 PM
in reply to: stipey169

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
You do not want to do an entire workout, or even a significant portion of a workout, with a pull buoy. The kick is integral to good technique. It doesn't have to be strong, but you need at least one kick per stroke to counterbalance the torque of your pull; almost like a tail rotor on a helicopter.

If you want to simulate wet suit swimming in conditions where it's too warm to do so, this is the droid you are looking for:
http://www.blueseventy.com/products/core-short


2015-08-03 11:31 PM
in reply to: gary p

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Core short, lava pants, sim shorts...


Better than a pull bouy for the OP.

Would suggest workouts like 20x25 or 10x50 as well...

2015-08-03 11:39 PM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Originally posted by simpsonbo

Core short, lava pants, sim shorts...


Better than a pull bouy for the OP.





^Exactly what I was thinking.
2015-08-04 1:45 AM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Originally posted by dfquigley

Originally posted by simpsonbo

Core short, lava pants, sim shorts...


Better than a pull bouy for the OP.





^Exactly what I was thinking.


x 3

In fact my sim shorts were so effective and improved my pool times so much, I've had to ditch them. They were giving me a false impression of how good I was. Any swim aids should really be used infrequently.



Edited by zedzded 2015-08-04 1:47 AM
2015-08-04 2:44 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Did anyone read the article I linked to? Just curious. Why do you feel that swim instructor is SO convinced he's right?

2015-08-04 6:44 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)

Originally posted by nc452010 Did anyone read the article I linked to? Just curious. Why do you feel that swim instructor is SO convinced he's right?

I read it. Very interesting. But let's not forget that all the athletes he is using as an example are coached so while they may be using a pull buoy for their workouts they are also getting constant feedback about their stroke mechanics.

Are you getting any feedback about your stroke from anyone?

But you know, do what you want.

Good luck getting back to it!



2015-08-04 7:12 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Originally posted by nc452010

Did anyone read the article I linked to? Just curious. Why do you feel that swim instructor is SO convinced he's right?



Just read it, he said not all his athletes were good swimmers to start. His example was someone swimming an IM in 1 hr 7 mins. Depending on what IM that could already be FOP. I just did one last month in 1 hr 8 mins and came out of the water 14th overall.

The athletes he is working with already are good swimmers, sounds like his progress with them is mostly get them to put more hours in swimming. If they already have good form and want to use a pull buoy he does not care because it puts you in a similar position as a wetsuite would.

As an old competitive swimmer I would still disagree with him, I believe you should swim 70-80% of the time unassisted. However if using a pull buoy is the only way these people will get in the water its better than not swimming. If they are top IM athletes I think with a little encouragement they would spend less time with a pull buoy and be better off for it.
2015-08-04 9:10 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)

I read the article but I'm not convinced with his reasoning. He suggests that without a pull buoy, swimming isn't enjoyable and feels like " thrashing away like a frog in a blender." It will feel frustrating to a swimmer who has no technique, but that's why it's important to learn the techniques. Far better gains will be made by having a coach that will teach you how to kick correctly (i.e. from the hip, keeping the legs inside the shadow of the body instead of wide scissor kicks, etc.) If those techniques are learned early on, swimming will be less frustrating, more enjoyable, and more successful. I believe Dave Scott is the coach who has been known to grab a pull buoy away from a swimmer and throw it over the fence, yelling "NO TOYS!"

2015-08-04 10:11 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Pull buoy is fine, but like others mentioned, it's worth getting to a point where you don't need to rely on them. I would also encourage you to do some kick sets as well. Use a kickboard and/ or swim fins (if they're available). One thing that I'll do at times is to split my sets up a bit. This lets me integrate the feeling back into my technique. For example:

100 w/ a kickboard
100 no aid
100 pull
100 no aid

A buoy is only going to marginally simulate a wetsuit. There are so many other factors to consider. For one, you'll still be kicking in a wetsuit, buoyancy in your torso, etc. Bottom line is you want to be confident that you can swim without a wetsuit if you are getting into the open water. It sets up your success for the rest of the race. If you swim 5 times a week, and do a combination of swimming both with, and without aids, I have no doubt that you will become a better swimmer. Stick with it and you'll get there! Best of luck!
2015-08-04 1:54 PM
in reply to: #5132764

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
My thought is if you are already training for races next year- just forget about that they are wetsuit legal and work on your regular swimming. A month or two out from the races you can simulate a wetsuit- but for now focus on being the best swimmer you can.

It's pretty easy to transition from non-wetsuit to wetsuit- I like three days in my wetsuit before a race. Everything you learn without a wetsuit will transfer over so it's all value add work. You will also have more confidence if you don't think you need a wetsuit or snorkel.

I think it's awesome you are prepping so far in advance that you have plenty of options.
2015-08-07 7:49 AM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: First post in several years - Swim questions (of course!)
Originally posted by simpsonbo

Core short, lava pants, sim shorts...


Better than a pull bouy for the OP.

Would suggest workouts like 20x25 or 10x50 as well...




I'm ordering the CORE shorts, today.

This week, I'm doing the 10X50's. Also, I'm going to work in some kick sets. I also got the snorkel (Finis Freestyle), yesterday.

I've always thought my issue in swimming was breathing (although I think I'm doing it right). I'm beginning to think it's "mostly" just overall (swim-specific) fitness level. I see swimmers with strokes that look a LOT worse than I "think" mine looks ( ) swimming long distances. If so, I can work with that.



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