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2015-08-19 11:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by 3mar

I have to disagree with you there LB, at least in this instance. I was hurting across that finish line, like doubled over gasping laying on the ground hurting.. If it's one thing I can be confident of is there was absolutely no way I was going any harder on that last 0.1 miles.


The learning to suffer is more geared toward mile 2 in a 5k than the last 0.1 mile. Pretty much everyone can suffer through the final kick - holding strong in the second mile is where many people need practice.

That brings me to another point; I go hard every day. Like every work out. I'm either doing intervals, tempos, or sets in the pool, but I never do z1 or z2 work. And I almost always push to z4/5 for at least part of every training session, if I don't I don't feel like I've finished and plodding along in z1/2 is just unbearable to me. I'm miserable. So I've convinced myself that because I cross train that it's ok. That and I listen to my body. Normally I can go 7 day/week like that for about two to three weeks without a rest day, but when I start feeling it, I take the day off and I'm right back the next day. I hear people on here talk about running saying that the majority is done at an easy pace, and I'm like; really? Is it wrong? I'm seeing gains and I'm about to turn 37 with but with very minimal injuries (a sore muscle or joint here or there). The only one that took me out of the game for a week was breaking my toe on a chair. With cross training in triathlon, is it ok to to hard every day? If not, how do you get over the mental hurdle of going easy (boredom, no rush, etc)


While you may have convinced yourself that going hard all the time isn't an issue, if your goal is to get as fast as you can as quickly as you can, you are compromising your goals. This isn't as much of an issue on the bike or the pool, primarily because these events are not load bearing so one can safely do much more intensity in these sports with a much lower risk (assuming decent technique in the pool and a good fit on your bike). As for running, hard all the time doesn't work as easier efforts will allow you to build training load with less muscle damage. Then you are prepared for harder efforts at the right moment.

What also must be considered is that each workout impacts on the others; so if you do a hard run on Monday and a hard ride on Tuesday, then the ride will be impacted on the run and is is quite possible you can't go hard enough to create the training stress you wish. Then, the hard run and swim you want to do on Wednesday are compromised by what you did on Tuesday and so on. Much better is to alternate hard days and easy days allowing you to hit your hard workouts hard enough to create the desired training stress and use the easy days for active recovery.

For swimming, I was never a sprinter so I have no idea how to train for that sort of thing, but will be in a masters meet in a couple of months that doesn't have any long events. What I'm confused about is; in running, you make sure that you run at your race pace, albeit in shorter durations. In swimming do you do the same thing? The fastest I go on any given day is 1:10-1:15/100yd on repeats and maybe 30-35 on 50yds. Whereas in a race, I'd want my 100yd time to be around 55-56. So how do you train for that? (I'm switching to yards here just because the meet is SCY)


All out 25's, fast 50's, descending 50's, 75's descending by 25 to faster than goal pace, 75's at goal pace, 100's descending by 25's to goal pace, etc.

Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2015-08-19 11:28 AM


2015-08-19 12:40 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by 3mar

I have to disagree with you there LB, at least in this instance. I was hurting across that finish line, like doubled over gasping laying on the ground hurting.. If it's one thing I can be confident of is there was absolutely no way I was going any harder on that last 0.1 miles.


The learning to suffer is more geared toward mile 2 in a 5k than the last 0.1 mile. Pretty much everyone can suffer through the final kick - holding strong in the second mile is where many people need practice.

That brings me to another point; I go hard every day. Like every work out. I'm either doing intervals, tempos, or sets in the pool, but I never do z1 or z2 work. And I almost always push to z4/5 for at least part of every training session, if I don't I don't feel like I've finished and plodding along in z1/2 is just unbearable to me. I'm miserable. So I've convinced myself that because I cross train that it's ok. That and I listen to my body. Normally I can go 7 day/week like that for about two to three weeks without a rest day, but when I start feeling it, I take the day off and I'm right back the next day. I hear people on here talk about running saying that the majority is done at an easy pace, and I'm like; really? Is it wrong? I'm seeing gains and I'm about to turn 37 with but with very minimal injuries (a sore muscle or joint here or there). The only one that took me out of the game for a week was breaking my toe on a chair. With cross training in triathlon, is it ok to to hard every day? If not, how do you get over the mental hurdle of going easy (boredom, no rush, etc)


While you may have convinced yourself that going hard all the time isn't an issue, if your goal is to get as fast as you can as quickly as you can, you are compromising your goals. This isn't as much of an issue on the bike or the pool, primarily because these events are not load bearing so one can safely do much more intensity in these sports with a much lower risk (assuming decent technique in the pool and a good fit on your bike). As for running, hard all the time doesn't work as easier efforts will allow you to build training load with less muscle damage. Then you are prepared for harder efforts at the right moment.

What also must be considered is that each workout impacts on the others; so if you do a hard run on Monday and a hard ride on Tuesday, then the ride will be impacted on the run and is is quite possible you can't go hard enough to create the training stress you wish. Then, the hard run and swim you want to do on Wednesday are compromised by what you did on Tuesday and so on. Much better is to alternate hard days and easy days allowing you to hit your hard workouts hard enough to create the desired training stress and use the easy days for active recovery.

For swimming, I was never a sprinter so I have no idea how to train for that sort of thing, but will be in a masters meet in a couple of months that doesn't have any long events. What I'm confused about is; in running, you make sure that you run at your race pace, albeit in shorter durations. In swimming do you do the same thing? The fastest I go on any given day is 1:10-1:15/100yd on repeats and maybe 30-35 on 50yds. Whereas in a race, I'd want my 100yd time to be around 55-56. So how do you train for that? (I'm switching to yards here just because the meet is SCY)


All out 25's, fast 50's, descending 50's, 75's descending by 25 to faster than goal pace, 75's at goal pace, 100's descending by 25's to goal pace, etc.

Shane


Thanks Shane, for this and your other very detailed and informational responses.

The part I have trouble with is scheduling easy days. I've only been doing single sport workouts a day, so that means 2-3 of each per week depending on rotation. If I only have two runs in a week, my gut tells me to do an interval/speed workout with one and a longer tempo run with the other. It seems like I'd be wasting it otherwise. I could see taking an easy day on the sport that I do three times any given week. Otherwise it just seems like there are really big gaps between hard workouts for any given sport.

What would an easy day consist of anyway? Do you go easy at a steady state or do you still incorporate some changes in effort?
2015-08-19 1:30 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

If you only run 2x per week, you are going to find it challenging to hit some of the goals you have set out for yourself.

"Easy" days in any sport can still have some changes in pace.  But, on balance, hitting a particular pace or really "pushing" yourself should not be goal of those workouts.  For example, an easy day "with purpose" in running might look like a 30min easy run followed by 6-8x 30sec strides.  This will give you some added running to simply build "durability", a little bit of endurance (every little bit helps), and some "non-taxing" speed work (as opposed to "track" work, which is usually intended to be taxing) that can help with running form/economy.  Doing other running drills combined with some easy running can also help with this.  If it really "kills" you to be running 30min easy, then put the strides during the run.  Every 4 or 5 minutes, do another one.

2015-08-19 2:31 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

If you only run 2x per week, you are going to find it challenging to hit some of the goals you have set out for yourself.

"Easy" days in any sport can still have some changes in pace.  But, on balance, hitting a particular pace or really "pushing" yourself should not be goal of those workouts.  For example, an easy day "with purpose" in running might look like a 30min easy run followed by 6-8x 30sec strides.  This will give you some added running to simply build "durability", a little bit of endurance (every little bit helps), and some "non-taxing" speed work (as opposed to "track" work, which is usually intended to be taxing) that can help with running form/economy.  Doing other running drills combined with some easy running can also help with this.  If it really "kills" you to be running 30min easy, then put the strides during the run.  Every 4 or 5 minutes, do another one.




I agree, but that's just how the math seems to work out for me. Doing workouts 7 days/week with one sport per day means that 2 out of 3 weeks each sport will only have two workouts. Given that; shouldn't the easy day get the cut?

Somehow it seems to be working. My PR in a 5k is 19:24 and that was back when I was running 30+ miles/week and only running. So even though I wasn't happy with the 19:40, it's close to my peak running fitness. Same goes for swimming; although I'm frustrated by the lack of much improvement, it has at least stabilized and I pretty much matched the 100 yd time I had a couple of months ago (0:58) with the 1:04 100m. My biking has been going through the roof lately. I was disappointed with my pacing and didn't hit my goals (but frankly I set my goals higher than I should all the time).

I don't know if it is residual from the IM training or what but here are all my bike times; you can see the huge uptick in the graph below which is every ride since I started. Something must be working.

I honestly don't know how else to schedule it right now. Double workouts? Bricks?



(bike times 8_19.JPG)



Attachments
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bike times 8_19.JPG (50KB - 5 downloads)
2015-08-19 4:07 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend

If you only run 2x per week, then you may want to do them a little harder than an easy run would be if you were running 7x.  But you should still look to balance how hard those workouts are with the workouts you are doing on other days.  Swimming and biking 2-3x per week, you probably do want to lean more heavily on the intensity.  But you may want to back off the bike the day before (or after) a really hard run.

Do you have the time/ability to work out twice a day sometimes?  Those are perfect opportunities to throw in an easy run.  Or tack a short, easy one onto your bike rides as a brick.  There's always the 'ideal' and then the 'practical'.  Balancing them is an art form.  That's why people like Shane get paid. 

2015-08-19 5:06 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

If you only run 2x per week, then you may want to do them a little harder than an easy run would be if you were running 7x.  But you should still look to balance how hard those workouts are with the workouts you are doing on other days.  Swimming and biking 2-3x per week, you probably do want to lean more heavily on the intensity.  But you may want to back off the bike the day before (or after) a really hard run.

Do you have the time/ability to work out twice a day sometimes?  Those are perfect opportunities to throw in an easy run.  Or tack a short, easy one onto your bike rides as a brick.  There's always the 'ideal' and then the 'practical'.  Balancing them is an art form.  That's why people like Shane get paid. 




And that's exactly how I ended up where I am now. That and I prefer to go hard. I use my swim days as best as I can to break it up and try to mix up the types of workouts so it's not the same type of stress. Again, I don't have any backup for this, but it's where I've been cornered in to. I rarely have time for a second workout. My wife is an avid runner and we have three small kids so both of us getting in one workout a day is tough enough.

I agree 100% on a coach, but it's just not in the budget as of now. So I will continue to run around in the dark and try to solicit free advice on here until that time comes.


2015-08-20 6:06 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Ran a Clinic on How NOT to Pace this Weekend
Originally posted by 3mar

And that's exactly how I ended up where I am now. That and I prefer to go hard. I use my swim days as best as I can to break it up and try to mix up the types of workouts so it's not the same type of stress. Again, I don't have any backup for this, but it's where I've been cornered in to. I rarely have time for a second workout. My wife is an avid runner and we have three small kids so both of us getting in one workout a day is tough enough.

I agree 100% on a coach, but it's just not in the budget as of now. So I will continue to run around in the dark and try to solicit free advice on here until that time comes.


Well you don't need to run around in the dark - you've already gotten lots of good advice and if you continue to ask questions, you'll get more.

With your background and seven workouts per week, I would try for three runs, three rides and two swims (one ride having a transition run for extra running).

As far wanting to go hard all the time, with limited workouts, intensity will play a bigger role however, even if you stay injury free, hard all the time will lead to stagnation. Your body does better with a mixture of intensities rather than always hard. However to attempt to mitigate this, I would suggest morning/evening alternation. That is, hard Monday morning, hard Tuesday evening and again Wednesday morning. This is giving you effectively an easy day between a harder day (with Tuesday evening and Wednesday morning being one day).

Shane
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