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2015-08-31 7:28 AM

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Subject: Swim question--longer= faster??
Throwing this out there for any of you swim or physiology folks who might have some insight--

Any thoughts into why someone might swim faster the longer he/she goes? Will try to explain:

*My best 100m time in recent years is about 1:25. Most days I can't get much under 1:30. Feel like I am just flapping around.
*I can hold 1:35-1:38 on a 2-minute interval for quite a while, most of the time (probably 15-20 repeats). If on 1:50, maybe slowing to 1:38 to 1:40 after a while. If on 1:45, I am suffering, probably hitting 1:40 at best.
*I have trouble swimming much under 3:15 for 200m, most of the time, or 6:40 for 400m. That feels "hard".

BUT-- if I keep going, things get better--

*Last year I did a 1500m TT in 25:30 (had help counting, sure it's right) 1:42/100m pace
*Last December I did the USMS one-hour time trial and also recorded time at 3000m (oddly, 50:51, faster than the 1500m TT pace).. Both were at 1:42/100m pace. Didn't feel I was swimming particularly hard until the last 200m or so, as I didn't really know how hard to pace at the start. Again, had a lap counter, same count as me so accurate (I hope).
*I sometimes (when pressed for time, like today) do a workout where I alternate 50m smooth/50m tempo or a ladder with 25 smooth/25 tempo on up to 200m each (for 1800m total). This often results in an average of about 1:43/100m. Again, I don't feel like that's particularly difficult. Since 1:50 is usually my "easy" pace that I do on an easy effort, I'd assume my tempo laps are around 1:36/100m. So why am I not doing this on 200-400m repeats, or if I do, I feel like I'm dying?
*I feel like a different swimmer when I go over 1000m continuously. My stroke is smoother and DPS greater.
*My fastest-paced OWS are mostly over longer race distances (1800-1900m), not sprint or Olympic, wetsuit or not
*I gradually get faster as I go, with the last 100-200m generally being the fastest, even after 3K plus.

Any reason WHY this would be true? To a lesser extent I am also like this with running--can't do a flat-out sprint to save my life, but in a good race, I can finish even a marathon or HIM with a pretty fast final mile, without consciously trying to, especially in my younger days (once ran the last mile of a marathon at close to world record pace--no kidding--trying to set a PB. Of course not the first 25 miles!). But it's really noticeable in swimming and drives me nuts. Just wonder if there is something about my stroke or training that causes this, something physiological or mental (I enjoy doing longer swims more, but I think it's because I physically feel better doing them, not vice versa), I am just stuck at 1:42-1:43/100m tempo, it takes me forever to warm up/get into a rhythm (though I do a pretty extended warmup for shorter repeats), or what??







2015-08-31 8:11 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
I think its because your getting older!!!

I actually am similar, although I can swim a faster sprint. If I am swimming sets of 200s my pace might be 1:25/100, and I feel like I'm working. If I do something long like 1000 or a 2000 I swim at about the same pace, but it does not feel bad. I honestly don't swim too much because it doesn't take a lot to stay FOP in tri's, so I think this would change for me if I actually went to the pool more. I believe it's mostly in your head, at least for me. As I swim long my stroke settles in, vs short stuff when I'm trying to push a little.
2015-08-31 8:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Intuitively that makes sense, though not sure if the age comment is on the level. As long as I can remember, my swimming has always been kind of like that (I specialized in the 500 and 1650yd events). Just, if you subtract 30 years from my age (46), subtract about 20 seconds/100m from those splits and the observations would be pretty much the same. (i.e. "I'm dying to hold 1:20 but I can go 1:23 forever...."). Ah, to have that problem now!

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-08-31 8:17 AM
2015-08-31 9:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??

Here's a video created by Suzanne Atkinson (AdventureBear here on BT) about executing a 1,000 TT that may provide some insight:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oMW9K8gUAA

I suspect that at the shorter distances, your form is breaking down a little when you try to increase the intensity.  At the longer distances, the lower intensity allows you to focus a little better on technique, so things don't break down.  This doesn't necessarily mean that it's exclusively a technique or fitness issue.  The two are more intertwined than is frequently debated here.

 

In the interest of disclosure, Suzanne is my Mentor Coach, and I work for her at Steel City Endurance as an Associate Coach.

 

 

 

2015-08-31 9:57 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??

How much are you warming up before doing intervals ?

How often do you do intervals at the faster pace, suffering ?

My guess is you have just built yourself into that type of swimmer over the last few years.  Partly in your head because you sound like you are more comfortable doing longer swims right now.  I cut way back on swimming this year, from 3 or 4 / wk to 1 if I'm lucky 2 / wk.  I can really feel it when I do short sets but not as bad over longer swims.  I can see how you gravitate to longer swims because I could very easily do so myself right now.

2015-08-31 9:57 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest


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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Some of the issue here may be comparing apples to oranges. If you are not efficient at flip turning, and pushing off a wall, then you may be costing yourself time there in a pool swimming laps, vs. open water where you just swim out with no need to turn and push off.

I swam in high school so I have been taught how to properly execute turns, and it doesn't really affect my pace. Folks who don't have that background may very well find they are faster in continuous swim in open water.

Throwing that aside, comparing your pace over long distances vs short distances in a pool - there is a lot to be said about swimming efficiently vs. aggressively. Again, this comes down to proper training. Many folks without much swim training will simply try to move their arms "faster" in a sprint/interval setting, meaning that they will not extend forward and back and will increase the number of arm strokes vs. distance laps.

That is not correct - when swimming race speed, one should focus on keeping an elongated stroke, and moving their arms stronger through the water. The number of arm strokes used to cover the pool should not really change, you should just do each arm stroke with more power = more speed. They reasons for this are numerous - first off, when your arms are out of the water, hey are useless to your propulsion. So the fewer strokes you can take, the better. Secondly, knowing the number of strokes you will take also allows you to keep a consistent breathing pattern, and again - head out of the water = loss of speed. Bad timing of breaths = loss of oxygen = loss of speed.

If anyone finds they are struggling to increase speeds/pace when sprinting, then you need to get with a coach who can work with you on proper form, stroke efficiency and turn techniques as well as breathing. I can swim 1:30/100 yd. pace for up to 1 mile non stop because I know how to swim that pace. But I also know how to swim 1:20 and even as low as 1:10 when needed for workout purposes, albeit at much shorter distances.

There are many people who swim laps and have gotten very good at doing it their way with no training or coaching. There are others who have issues because they just don't "feel it" in the water the way some others do. Much the same could be said about cycling and running. I feel natural in the water, but have never had that same feel for running, despite the fact that I push myself to do it. When I hear of people holding sub 7 minute miles for long distances, my mind is blown. i just can't figure out how to do it. I know a running coach would likely be very helpful, but i just don't have the time to be bothered with it.l


2015-08-31 10:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??

Originally posted by Hot Runner Throwing this out there for any of you swim or physiology folks who might have some insight-- Any thoughts into why someone might swim faster the longer he/she goes?

 

Hip driven swimming vs shoulder driven is one reason that some people swim faster over longer distances.  Shoulder driven swimming produces faster top speeds, but you fatigue quicker. Hip driven swimming is what the fastest swimmers use in distances for 500m and longer while sholder driven is what the fastes swimmers us in 200 m and shorter distances.  Some people will use shoulder driven swimming in say a 500m races so they can hit higher top speeds but actually have slower average speeds than say a 1000m swim where they "pace" them self and use the more efficient hip driven stroke the whole way.  

Also, some people try to muscle their way through shorter distances.  Rather than relaxing their arms on the recovery they keep them flexed, rather than using even acceleration during the pull they push hard at the beginning of the pull with no acceleration (and if anything a tapering off) .  The muscling their way through the water increases the amount of work they are doing but doesn't increase their thrust.  

Additionally, by trying to muscle their way through the water they aren't using the "feel" that they did in practice.  They think that what they are doing is "faster" than the "feel" they had in practice, but they are actually getting further and further away from the good form they have been practicing and so they are not producing as much thrust and again go slower.

 

The key to long distances is to stay relaxed and conserve energy.  People stay relaxed through 500m if they know they have to go 1000m.  They stay relaxed through 1000m if they know they have to got 2000m.  However if they only have to go 500m they may muscle through 300 meters and then due to the fatigue think they are laying it on the line for the last 200 meter when actually have slowed down considerably.  Same for 1000 meters, they may stay relaxed for 700 meter, then muscle through the last 300 meters, with the 700 meter being a faster pace than the increased effort produces in the last 300 meters.  

You all know the saying. "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast".   When I see faster paces at 2000 meters swim that what I see at 1000m or 500m I think that the focus has been more on being fast than being smooth.  :-)

Yes...I am the guy that ran a faster 400m run split in an 800M run than my open 400m run PR.  I am also that guy that has a faster pace for my 15K run PR than the pace of my 10K run PR.  And I am the guy that spent two year trying to break 18:00 in a 5K unsuccessfully then runs a 5K split of a 10K in 18:01.  The reason for all of this is that when I was a younger man I would muscle my way through races. I discovered my error as an older man.  I was doing speed work on the track 1-2 times a week as an older man with a group of high school boys.   They ran hard and fast.  As a younger man I could have kept up with them but as an older man I no longer had the foot speed.  My gait however was very smooth.  It had improved with age like a fine wine.   I noticed in a 15 x 400m track session that the high school guys would take off as fast as they could and loose me in the first 100 meters.  Then my smooth locomotion movements would build speed (with out increasing any effort) over the next 200m and I would catch a lot of the high school guys.  I would be speeding up with out increasing my effort and they would be slowing down with out increasing their efforts. In the last 100 meters they would all increase their efforts and beat me.  Even if I went into a full out sprint for the last 100 meters I had no chance of catching those guys.  They were doing 60-70 second splits and I was doing 70-75 second splits.  I thought all of those 60 second split guys were lightning fast.  I saw two of them at a local 5K in town and was guessing that they would both beat me by a minute or more.  I was surprised to pass both of them about a half mile into the race and to finish ahead of them.  So with my smooth gait I was speeding up through the first mile and and with their muscling they were slowing down the first mile.  After the first mile I was still fresh and working on locking into an efficient pace.  They were starting to tier and working on locking into a sustainable pace.  My pace was faster than theirs. I finished strong.  They finished tired.  

It took me over 20 years of running to  learn this lesson in running. I think the same principle applies is swimming. I read an article by a Masters world champion open water swimmer.  I he explained the difference between the hip driven and shoulder driven swimming.  It likewise took him over 20 years to explain why he would see faster open water swim times in long events than he did in shorter pool competitions.  It is all about staying relaxed so that you are more efficient.   



Edited by BlueBoy26 2015-08-31 10:20 AM
2015-08-31 10:35 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
When I started swimming 6 years ago I started off just swimming laps. Eventually got to 3,000 yard sets in increments of 500, 1000, 1500 etc. Then I hit a plateau of around 1:40 per 100 yards in my races. Then I joined a masters swim group where I was exposed to structured workouts with sets ranging from 25's to 300's. This is where I saw gains in speed. The total distance of my workouts went unchanged but the structure changed dramatically.

In a nutshell you need to get your body exposed to faster swimming to be able to swim faster in races.

So in workout of 2,500-3000 yds/m make sure and do sets of 5x100 or 10x100 or 10x50 or 20x50 and really push hard in those sets. Give yourself 10-15 seconds rest in between. The longer the rest, the harder you should push yourself.

For example sometimes I'll do 10x100 on 1:30 but I'll only be able to maintain 1:25 or so in the last 5 but if I increase the interval to 1:40 then I can hit 1:20 to 1:23 for all 10.

This should translate to holding a faster pace over a 1.5 km swim in your races.
2015-08-31 2:07 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Originally posted by Hot Runner

*Last year I did a 1500m TT in 25:30 (had help counting, sure it's right) 1:42/100m pace

*Last December I did the USMS one-hour time trial and also recorded time at 3000m (oddly, 50:51, faster than the 1500m TT pace).. Both were at 1:42/100m pace.

Since 1:50 is usually my "easy" pace that I do on an easy effort, I'd assume my tempo laps are around 1:36/100m. So why am I not doing this on 200-400m repeats, or if I do, I feel like I'm dying?

*I feel like a different swimmer when I go over 1000m continuously. My stroke is smoother and DPS greater.



Couple of things.

first of all I think your range of paces is smaller than you think. I suspect your threshold pace is around 1:40/100m. 1:44-1:45 should feel pretty easy and doing 400s on 1:36 won't be easy. To get a better idea, use this

http://www.usaswimming.org/_Rainbow/Documents/5d4e6d83-ceaf-498c-88...

Look at the 3 zones and you will see your times actually do make some sense. It will give you ideas of how much rest for different paces for different adaptations sought. Oversimplifying it, endurance, threshold or VO2 type work.

For your shorter stuff like 25s, 50s, 100s, you need different type of work and sets to develop this.

Of course there is also going to be the endless debate of technique power, kick .....I am sure we can hit 12 pages just on that :-)

I am the complete opposite of you. I have much better 50, 100m speed and it deeps considerably at around 200. There is a GREAT book by Olbrecht on the topic and how to train the various energy systems for the different events.

2015-08-31 5:28 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Interesting responses. Just to clarify...I DO have a swim background, though quite long ago in AG and high school. I swam 21 minutes and change for 1500m back then, about 25 now. I don't think my form is perfect, though. It is definitely more suited to distances and open water. I think I'm efficient, without being very powerful or fast. That being said, I'm not a total weakling--I can still do a 200m fly if I put my mind to it. Also, I don't often do the longer continuous swims in training, just the occasional TT or sometimes the tempo ladder when I'm pressed for time, though they are probably my favorite workout. Probably 1-2 times a month at most. Normally I do shorter sets, occasionally as long as 400-500 but mainly 100's and 200's. I never just "swim laps" unless the purpose of the workout is recovery, or I'm just jumping in the pool to cool off after work, or something like that.

As far as flip turns and push-offs, I would guess that I'm pretty efficient at them from years of practice. It seems to be some combination of fitness, technique, and training that's keeping me stuck into such a narrow range of pace. Would it be good to incorporate more shorter repeats at harder pace (VO2 work)? I have really focused on HIM this year (and not so much on swim) so maybe what I have done is just trained myself to swim well for 2 km!

I do use 1:40/100m as threshold pace, for workouts since that's close to my 1500m TT pace.
2015-08-31 7:47 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Originally posted by Hot Runner
I do use 1:40/100m as threshold pace, for workouts since that's close to my 1500m TT pace.


So it sounds like you a relatively good at your threshold pace.

If I were you I would work your weakness and whatever the plural of weakness is (sorry I'm French, weaknesses ? ). There may be other hints in some of your metrics such as Strokes/Len, Strokes/min...

BTW, doing fast intervals doesn't just develop your VO2 or Anaerobic capacity. It also develops things such as faster cadence/turnover, better use of kick, neuromuscular blabla.....





2015-09-01 5:18 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Looking at those paces, I think I don't/can't do much swimming at much below threshold. I would have a very hard time hitting any of the "EN 3" paces listed for my threshold for any distance, based on the 3K time trial. The others sound doable with the amount of rest given, on a good day. I think there is something physiological in my case about being able to hold very close to threshold for a really long time, but falling off abruptly once I get a bit faster--kind of like this with running and biking as well. Probably a mix of innate abilities, technique, and training. I rarely do 25's or 50's (did though as a kid) and would probably benefit from incorporating some more max-type stuff into my training. Not sure about form--I think I do tend to increase stroke rate without increasing power when I try to speed up (my DPS decreases), which isn't good, and at times that actually makes me slow down. It's what I mean by "flapping around". Maybe I actually don't remember how to sprint.
2015-09-01 9:42 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Originally posted by Hot Runner
I think there is something physiological in my case about being able to hold very close to threshold for a really long time, but falling off abruptly once I get a bit faster--kind of like this with running and biking as well.


This is something you should explore when you will be interviewing the coaches you are looking at.

They should be able to talk about this and make you comfortable with a plan.

2015-09-01 6:27 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Yes, definitely. This was at the root of my struggles in collegiate running--the whole program was based on keeping speedy thoroughbreds healthy--very low volume, loads of speedwork) and I didn't do well, was constantly told that I lacked speed/strength/power/talent etc. (duh!) but really given no helpful feedback on how to address that. When I redshirted to train for Olympic Trials, I worked with another coach who not only helped address my weaknesses, to the extent possible (strength training, stride drills, plyometric type stuff, even running sand dunes as I recall) but also really structured training to capitalize on my strengths. He's now retired and at any rate not a tri coach (I did ask him recently, just out of curiosity), but hoping I can find someone who can do something similar.
2015-09-01 6:39 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Originally posted by Hot Runner

Yes, definitely. This was at the root of my struggles in collegiate running--the whole program was based on keeping speedy thoroughbreds healthy--very low volume, loads of speedwork) and I didn't do well, was constantly told that I lacked speed/strength/power/talent etc. (duh!) but really given no helpful feedback on how to address that. When I redshirted to train for Olympic Trials, I worked with another coach who not only helped address my weaknesses, to the extent possible (strength training, stride drills, plyometric type stuff, even running sand dunes as I recall) but also really structured training to capitalize on my strengths. He's now retired and at any rate not a tri coach (I did ask him recently, just out of curiosity), but hoping I can find someone who can do something similar.



What's interesting is you bring that characteristic over to your swim and bike. I wonder if they would have changed their strategy had they known.
Things like plyometrics will help with your run economy, but that is probably not your weakness if the same phenomenon exists on your bike and swim.
2015-09-01 6:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
True, though in the case of running I think there was work to do with run economy, at least when I was that age (17-20) and had just stopped growing. There is probably work to do now after 20 years before taking up tri) of just running recreationally with almost no speed work. (But tri running is a different beast, and I've found that my endurance strengths come more into play there.) Likewise I think it's a combination of physiology (totally slow-twitch, maybe?) and technique on the swim. I've always been really lightweight for my size (genetic--Mom has the same build), with small bones and little obvious muscle, and I think that maybe limits to some extent my potential for raw power/speed but allows me to keep going for a long time just a notch slower than threshold.

In biking the "one pace" thing is less noticable--my sprint speed is faster than my Oly or HIM speed (roughly--sprint 33-34 kph, Oly 32 kph, HIM 30 kph) but it's my weakest event, my top end speed is unimpressive, and I'm generally being passed by heavier, more muscular women on that leg. A bit hard to analyze as I've changed bikes recently (since the sprint) and might be comparing apples and oranges with the different races. My sprint would probably be a bit faster with the tri bike and if I was focusing my training on shorter events.


2015-09-02 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
I didn't see much talk about warm ups. Could it be as simple as needing a much longer warm up? I have the memory of a Goldfish so if I don't write down a swim workout, I have to keep it really simple or sometimes I have a limited amount of time and I use that as an excuse to skip kicking and form work. Whenever that happens I default to something like:

500 warm up
5x100 on 1:45
200 moderate
5x50 on 1:00
200 moderate
5x100 on 1:45
200 moderate
5x50 on 1:00
200 moderate
6x25 on 0:40
200 cool down

I end up doing this more than I care to admit, but the reason I bring it up is, I ALWAYS go significantly faster on the second set of 100's and 50's at what feels like less effort. It confused the heck out of me the first time it happened. My first set of 100's will be around 1:25/100m where my second will be between 1:17 to 1:20/100m at what feels like less effort. Same for the 50's. I think it just takes me that long to warm up. Or at least that's how I've always explained it to myself.

Edited by 3mar 2015-09-02 11:09 AM
2015-09-02 6:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
I generally warm up about 1000m for sets of shorter repeats. My go-to warmup is taken from our master's coach in Oregon, which is usually something like 400m swim (mix of free and stroke), 300m pulling with paddles, 200m of kicking, 100m IM). So I "should" be warmed up! It does tend to take me a while to get going in all three events--if I'm doing run speedwork, I almost always do about 20 minutes of warmup first, never less than fifteen. Ditto for the bike. With biking, it's much easier for me to hit a goal pace after I've been riding for a full hour--no idea why, it just is. It's possible I need to switch up my swim warmup to include some more short, fast stuff (like 25's or 50's build) before starting the main set. (I usually do some strides with running or spin-ups to high cadence on the bike, especially before shorter, faster intervals.) During the school year my pool time is often quite limited so sometimes I cut that in order to start the main set--maybe I shouldn't.

When I do the longer continuous swims, though, it's often because I'm pressed for time, and I've done very little warmup, usually 300-400m or even none. Likewise my best HIM split--32:30 something-- was on zero warmup, unless you count jumping off a dock and treading cold water for a few minutes as a warmup. That may well explain why I can swim faster at the end! BTW what I meant by "faster at the end" was something like this--at the end of the 1800m ladder on Monday (after a "hard" last 200m), I popped up, looked at my watch, thought, "Wow, I could PB for HIM (1900m) if I did another 100m" (not sure why that mattered, it was a workout in a pool, and not a race!), pushed off again maybe five seconds later, and swam the final 100m in 1:34 without undue suffering. Normally I am really working to hit 1:34 in a stand-alone 100m, even with 30 seconds rest. Maybe it's just in my head--I know it's almost over! I think more likely form-related--I have really "hit my stride" (in a swim sense) by then and am swimming more efficiently, so actually faster with less effort.

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-09-02 6:31 PM
2015-09-03 6:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim question--longer= faster??
Hmmm--Maybe I have answered my own question. Today I was doing a short taper-type workout as am racing on Saturday. I did a normal, slightly abbreviated warmup (800m easy swim and pull, without any builds or 25's), then 5 X 100m on 2 minutes. Instead of thinking about "race pace" or even any level of pace/effort, I tried to go for the same feeling (stroke-wise) that I have on the tempo swims or long TT's. Did not feel I was swimming "fast" or particularly "hard", and did 1:30 to 1:33. So I do, apparently, slow down when I try to speed up, and vice versa. No doubt a technique issue, regardless of whatever else is going on with endurance vs. speed and training.
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date : July 5, 2005
author : Michael Silva
comments : 1
I don't really strength train (because I never have and don't really know much about it) and feel like my lack of upper body strength is the reason why I'm not getting faster.