General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What's with All the Flippers? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2015-09-17 5:35 PM

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: What's with All the Flippers?
So I've been out of swimming for almost 20 years, and maybe I'm just out of date, but what the heck is with all the flippers? I remember wearing them maybe once a week, at most, for a set here or there, but there are people that pretty much wear them for the entire work out. Am I missing something? Is there a benefit to them, or are people just sort of dependent? The folks at my pool don't wear them too often, and it's the only way I can get them to do a set with me if they wear flippers and I don't, so we're about even (for the most part anyway, there's really only one guy that makes it to the end of most sets on my intervals if he wears them...I'm not bragging, I realize there are a lot of masters groups where I'd get smoked, just noting my flipper exposure). But when I travel I see people using them the entire practice. That just seems counter-intuitive to me; wouldn't you want to be slower in practice than in a race? I'd think that would be demoralizing. I'm sure there is a benefit, otherwise it wouldn't be so wide spread, so I guess that's what I'm asking is; do I need to invest in a pair of flippers? Am I out of the loop?


2015-09-17 5:38 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
Originally posted by 3mar

So I've been out of swimming for almost 20 years, and maybe I'm just out of date, but what the heck is with all the flippers? I remember wearing them maybe once a week, at most, for a set here or there, but there are people that pretty much wear them for the entire work out. Am I missing something? Is there a benefit to them, or are people just sort of dependent? The folks at my pool don't wear them too often, and it's the only way I can get them to do a set with me if they wear flippers and I don't, so we're about even (for the most part anyway, there's really only one guy that makes it to the end of most sets on my intervals if he wears them...I'm not bragging, I realize there are a lot of masters groups where I'd get smoked, just noting my flipper exposure). But when I travel I see people using them the entire practice. That just seems counter-intuitive to me; wouldn't you want to be slower in practice than in a race? I'd think that would be demoralizing. I'm sure there is a benefit, otherwise it wouldn't be so wide spread, so I guess that's what I'm asking is; do I need to invest in a pair of flippers? Am I out of the loop?


Yeah, let me know....then again, I often swim closed fist in wavy ocean water to strengthen my pull. So little interest in an "aid"
2015-09-17 5:41 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image

Pro
6520
50001000500
Bellingham, WA
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

There are a few people where I swim that wear them almost contantly but I do not think they race just like to swim for fun and fitness.  I think the flippers just make them feel faster and maybe enjoy their workouts more.  I am slightly like that at times with my Lava pant crutch. 

2015-09-17 6:13 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
In general, they're a crutch, just like Lava pants, wetsuits for many triathletes, and pull buoys. They make you faster, more buoyant, and more powerful than you really are. Since you can't wear them in a race, there's little point in doing much with them in a pool. That being said, I occasionally use them for the following:

*Some (not all) kicking in warmup (usually dolphin kick underwater and backstroke without a kick board)
*Occasionally for regular kick sets (free) to improve ankle flexibility
*Occasionally if I want to do a longer fly set for variety but don't want to wear myself out for the rest of the workout (they make fly a LOT easier!)
*When teaching butterfly to beginners, especially kids (they often lack the strength to get their arms out of the water at first, and we're focusing on proper rhythm)
*Once in a blue moon (as in once or twice a month, max), a freestyle set just to focus on smooth stroke and feeling a faster tempo
*If I'm truly exhausted from a race or hard workout, and doing a recovery swim, maybe some swimming with fins or a pull buoy just to do some different movements and my body a rest

I would say at max in a 3K workout, I'm using the fins for 200m, almost always kick sets. If you're a decent swimmer, no need to go buy fins. You'll be fine without them.
2015-09-17 6:26 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

Originally posted by Hot Runner In general, they're a crutch, just like Lava pants, wetsuits for many triathletes, and pull buoys. They make you faster, more buoyant, and more powerful than you really are. Since you can't wear them in a race, there's little point in doing much with them in a pool. That being said, I occasionally use them for the following: *Some (not all) kicking in warmup (usually dolphin kick underwater and backstroke without a kick board) *Occasionally for regular kick sets (free) to improve ankle flexibility *Occasionally if I want to do a longer fly set for variety but don't want to wear myself out for the rest of the workout (they make fly a LOT easier!) *When teaching butterfly to beginners, especially kids (they often lack the strength to get their arms out of the water at first, and we're focusing on proper rhythm) *Once in a blue moon (as in once or twice a month, max), a freestyle set just to focus on smooth stroke and feeling a faster tempo *If I'm truly exhausted from a race or hard workout, and doing a recovery swim, maybe some swimming with fins or a pull buoy just to do some different movements and my body a rest I would say at max in a 3K workout, I'm using the fins for 200m, almost always kick sets. If you're a decent swimmer, no need to go buy fins. You'll be fine without them.

Well........for an AG'er swimming for tri's ok.  And I don't know the context of the fins in 3mar's post.  But I watch a lot of really fast SWIM workouts, with really fast swimmers.  Easily 25% of their workouts are with fins/pull buoys/paddles.  The fins are used extensively for dolphin kicking.....which is a big deal in swimming these days since it's very fast off the wall and legal for nearly half the pool in SC racing for fly and back.  Plus it helps build a tremendous core and feel for streamline in the water. 

I think I would agree with your post if all we were talking about is tri training....at least for AG'ers.  But it's a masters class.......maybe they have an advanced coach.

2015-09-17 6:34 PM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


1300
1000100100100
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
I think it's a combination of a few things. They're being used a little more in practice now to work on kicking. I've been out of organized swimming for about 25 years now. The only flippers we used "in my day" were the really short ones. I actually think they made it harder to swim. I've noticed more people using them and part of that is they are available on the pool deck so they get used. We're getting older and sh@t changes !I'm leaving to go swim right now and may just use me some flippers tonight.


2015-09-17 6:43 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano I think it's a combination of a few things. They're being used a little more in practice now to work on kicking. I've been out of organized swimming for about 25 years now. The only flippers we used "in my day" were the really short ones. I actually think they made it harder to swim. I've noticed more people using them and part of that is they are available on the pool deck so they get used. We're getting older and sh@t changes !I'm leaving to go swim right now and may just use me some flippers tonight.

No short flippers now in organized swimming.  All BIG flippers used to build power/core.

2015-09-17 7:04 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image


1300
1000100100100
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
Yea there's a lot about swimming today from what I hear and read I think I'd like. Then again anything other then slogging through 10-12k yds a day I would've liked.
2015-09-18 4:30 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
I don't think we actually disagree. I would use fins for dolphin kick to build core, especially with kids, and myself, sometimes, and for technique work with people learning strokes. I guess I was thinking more in terms of a steady swim, or intervals, rather than technique work, for a typical triathlete. Dolphin kicking off the wall isn't normally an option in tri. (I guess there's the occasional dolphin dive, but that shouldn't be a whole lot of the race!) If you counted meters with buoys and paddles, the proportion of sets with those in my workouts (for myself, not a superhuman fish but not an adult onset swimmer either), it's higher than with the fins. In my case those aren't crutches (I'm faster without the buoy); it's work on strength/power--a lot of my racing consists of swimming against current and a more powerful pull does help in that situation. In a typical 3K workout, pulling would be more like 600-800m, sometimes more (for a strength-focused workout), sometimes less.

I think using the fins for technique work, particularly for freestyle, is a bit tricky and ideally should take place with the direct guidance of a coach who can make sure they're being used to focus the athlete's attention on things like body or head position or rotation, and that it doesn't become a crutch.
2015-09-18 6:40 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner


82
252525
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
I swim probably 80% of my laps with a pull buoy. When I race the wetsuit gave me near similar buoyancy and allowed me to use very little kick, as I wanted to save my legs for the bike/run. This may not work for everyone as I can hold 1:30 per 100Y without legs.

Conversely I don't understand fins. You can't wear them in any race, and you could possibly end up with a false idea of how strong your kick is.
2015-09-18 7:08 AM
in reply to: 3mar

User image

Extreme Veteran
1018
1000
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

I use fins to get a good plantar flex stretch in my feet.  Once they are stretched out, I take the fins off.  I have a buddy who suffers from runners feet.  His toes point down when he swims.  So he uses fins more than I do.  There are many more reasons.  Continue your quest to uncover all of them.



2015-09-18 7:12 AM
in reply to: 0


1660
10005001002525
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

Most folks who aren't competitive swimmer/triathletes who are using flippers at the pool or even in masters workouts are using them so they can go faster than they would otherwise. 

 

It definitely is a lot more fun when you're moving at 1:30/100 compared to 2:00/100, even if you're using flippers to cheat your way to that speed. A lot of these flipper folks don't have the talent nor interest to devote the work required to swim at their flipper speed.

 

It's also a way to make a circle swim with greatly disparate swim abilities more even.

 

But yes, for these folks, it's really a crutch that allows them to go faster than they otherwise would. I won't criticize though - if it means that it makes swimming fun and interesting enough for them to do it when they otherwise wouldn't, I'm all for it.



Edited by yazmaster 2015-09-18 7:13 AM
2015-09-18 8:31 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

User image

Master
2429
200010010010010025
Falls Church, Virginia
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
I'm currently working my way through Month 5 of the Learn to Swim series here on BT written by Sara McLarty. Here's what she has to say about fins:

"Fins are sometimes a controversial piece of equipment. Some people might say triathletes do not need to kick, fins are cheating, or they cause calf cramps. As a swim coach and long-time swimmer, I feel that these ideas (and other anti-fin opinions) are incorrect. Fins are a great tool for the beginner swimmer because they help a slower athlete in the water feel what it is like to go FAST! Just like a boat, the faster your move through the water, the higher your body will ride on the surface and the easier it is to swim, period. Kicking with fins encourages your legs to move in the proper kicking movement with a nice pointed foot. You cannot flex your foot when wearing full-length rubber fins! For weaker kickers, fins are the perfect way to strengthen those specific leg and hip muscles to improve overall swim speed."

That being said, I don't have fins and there are none available on the deck at the rec center, so I've never used them before. But I do think if I'm in the market for a new pool toy, fins will likely be my next choice.
2015-09-18 8:33 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
Originally posted by yazmaster

Most folks who aren't competitive swimmer/triathletes who are using flippers at the pool or even in masters workouts are using them so they can go faster than they would otherwise. 

 

It definitely is a lot more fun when you're moving at 1:30/100 compared to 2:00/100, even if you're using flippers to cheat your way to that speed. A lot of these flipper folks don't have the talent nor interest to devote the work required to swim at their flipper speed.

 

It's also a way to make a circle swim with greatly disparate swim abilities more even.

 

But yes, for these folks, it's really a crutch that allows them to go faster than they otherwise would. I won't criticize though - if it means that it makes swimming fun and interesting enough for them to do it when they otherwise wouldn't, I'm all for it.




I'm not criticizing in any way. I was honestly just wanting to understand if I was missing something. Also, the past two weeks I've been able to swim with a group of people for the main set simply because they can wear flippers and still maintain the sets on my time intervals. This morning we did 100's and I did all mine between 1:13-1:14/100 meter. The guys with the flippers were able to maintain around 1:25-1:30 so as long as I did them on 2:00 we were all able to swim together and get a push from one another, which I thought was great. I wouldn't have swam as hard otherwise as at least one or two of them would be shoulder to shoulder with me for the first 25-50 meters which gets me going.

I did borrow a pair this morning to use for my kick sets though and I think it helped a lot. Honestly, I have never done a full kick set because my kicking is so weak that it takes me forever and I run out of time. Doing the kick sets with the flippers made me not want to drown myself the whole time. I also did some 25's dolphin kicking with them just for the fun of it and definitely felt it more. I'll probably keep using them for the kick sets (the coach told me to keep them) but that's it.
2015-09-18 8:57 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

Originally posted by Hot Runner I don't think we actually disagree. I would use fins for dolphin kick to build core, especially with kids, and myself, sometimes, and for technique work with people learning strokes. I guess I was thinking more in terms of a steady swim, or intervals, rather than technique work, for a typical triathlete. Dolphin kicking off the wall isn't normally an option in tri. (I guess there's the occasional dolphin dive, but that shouldn't be a whole lot of the race!) If you counted meters with buoys and paddles, the proportion of sets with those in my workouts (for myself, not a superhuman fish but not an adult onset swimmer either), it's higher than with the fins. In my case those aren't crutches (I'm faster without the buoy); it's work on strength/power--a lot of my racing consists of swimming against current and a more powerful pull does help in that situation. In a typical 3K workout, pulling would be more like 600-800m, sometimes more (for a strength-focused workout), sometimes less. I think using the fins for technique work, particularly for freestyle, is a bit tricky and ideally should take place with the direct guidance of a coach who can make sure they're being used to focus the athlete's attention on things like body or head position or rotation, and that it doesn't become a crutch.

No, we don't disagree.  The only thing I get hung up on is the idea of "triathlon swimming" and "swimming"........it's ALL swimming.  A triathlon swim, or the training to be a fast triathlon swimmer, is not some magic formula.  Being a fast swimmer is learning to be a fast swimmer.  I know my perspective is warped because I spend a lot of time around people who do an Oly swim in 16-18 minutes.....but that means I also know how they got there.  I'm NOT a fast swimmer, but I am a faster swimmer then I used to be by following some of the same principles.  I learned to backstroke, and I can do 50's and 100"s butterfly, but only with fins.  I know there are plenty of people who say that kind of swimming is useless for triathlon......and that's garbage.  I have learned to feel the water better by learning different strokes.  I have learned to breath easier and with more comfort by doing underwater work, again with fins.  It has also helped my streamline. Of course, there is a ton of other work that helps with streamline, feel for the water, balance, etc.  It's all GREAT work for improving your swim.  The downside is that it takes time, and probably coaching for almost all of us.

What I find interesting is that people speak about getting a faster triathlon mostly in terms of biking and running more/faster.  But when I look at a 4 year body of work that allowed my son to be one of the top AG triathletes in the country (sprint distance for now) I see that 58% of his time was spent swimming, 23% was spent running, and 19% was spent biking.  I believe, and he does as well, that his strength and core was built in the pool, not only just swimming, but doing massive kick sets and tons of underwater work.  Yes, I know that his age and the time he has to devote to training make a difference......but I've been around triathlon for a long time and it's probably not as much time as you would think.  What he does are very focused workouts, with very focused coaches....in every discipline.  The fact that he does the majority of his work in the pool allows him to train daily with a lot less impact on his body than what is normally prescribed.

I guess my point as it pertains to this thread is that fins, pull buoys, paddles, parachutes, etc........under knowledgeable direction, are gold......they build strength on top of endurance.  If those things keep you in the pool, then I don't see a big downside.....as long as the work is balanced and none of the equipment is used as a "crutch"....another area where we agree completely.

It's not ALL apples and oranges when you look at how really fast people train vs. the rest of us.......mostly it comes down to knowing how to use the time and equipment. 



Edited by Left Brain 2015-09-18 8:58 AM
2015-09-18 10:29 AM
in reply to: Atlantia

User image

Pro
6582
50001000500252525
Melbourne FL
Gold member
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

Originally posted by Atlantia I'm currently working my way through Month 5 of the Learn to Swim series here on BT written by Sara McLarty. Here's what she has to say about fins: "Fins are sometimes a controversial piece of equipment. Some people might say triathletes do not need to kick, fins are cheating, or they cause calf cramps. As a swim coach and long-time swimmer, I feel that these ideas (and other anti-fin opinions) are incorrect. Fins are a great tool for the beginner swimmer because they help a slower athlete in the water feel what it is like to go FAST! Just like a boat, the faster your move through the water, the higher your body will ride on the surface and the easier it is to swim, period. Kicking with fins encourages your legs to move in the proper kicking movement with a nice pointed foot. You cannot flex your foot when wearing full-length rubber fins! For weaker kickers, fins are the perfect way to strengthen those specific leg and hip muscles to improve overall swim speed." That being said, I don't have fins and there are none available on the deck at the rec center, so I've never used them before. But I do think if I'm in the market for a new pool toy, fins will likely be my next choice.
The above is what my kids swim coach(es) have always said about fins.  They use them to feel what faster means, and what slight changes in stroke feel like going faster.  Like anything they have a point to get across, but using them all the time or for majority of a workout is not one of them.

Personally I very rarely use fins, I have the older short Finis Zoomer blue fins.  Today the no longer carry these but do have another version (gold)



2015-09-18 5:04 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image


538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano I think it's a combination of a few things. They're being used a little more in practice now to work on kicking. I've been out of organized swimming for about 25 years now. The only flippers we used "in my day" were the really short ones. I actually think they made it harder to swim. I've noticed more people using them and part of that is they are available on the pool deck so they get used. We're getting older and sh@t changes !I'm leaving to go swim right now and may just use me some flippers tonight.

No short flippers now in organized swimming.  All BIG flippers used to build power/core.




So what you're saying is, when it comes to one's flipper, size matters?
2015-09-18 6:27 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

User image

Pro
4578
20002000500252525
Vancouver, BC
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

We use fins a lot at swim club. (sometimes maybe 25% of the practice, IDK). I motorpace a lot at the velodrome. I kind of equate these two things.

2015-09-18 7:15 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: What's with All the Flippers?

Originally posted by jeng

We use fins a lot at swim club. (sometimes maybe 25% of the practice, IDK). I motorpace a lot at the velodrome. I kind of equate these two things.

Yep, I see that use for fins often.... and add the over-speed treadmill to the mix.  Motorpacing and over-speed running can be pretty advanced stuff.......swimming with fins, not so much, but the same type of benefit when used properly.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-09-18 7:19 PM
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What's with All the Flippers? Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

Flippers

Started by southwestmba
Views: 1702 Posts: 10

2009-03-11 1:45 PM Aikidoman

Swim Training with Flippers

Started by TXGreyhoundGuy
Views: 666 Posts: 3

2008-08-04 6:36 AM TXGreyhoundGuy

Train with flippers????

Started by jford2309
Views: 888 Posts: 8

2008-07-11 8:06 AM BbMoozer

Flippers?

Started by ragingferret
Views: 537 Posts: 4

2007-05-25 11:56 PM AdventureBear

Swimming w/ Flippers

Started by adamisaacson
Views: 724 Posts: 8

2005-01-11 3:56 PM apenton