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Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus
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 2015-09-30 2:17 PM |
Expert  2355    Madison, Wisconsin |  Subject: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulusDoes anyone do this? Do you repeat the same swim, bike, or run sessions frequently and/or change the stimulus within the session? If you do how frequently do you, if you don't why don't you? Lets get some training chatter going BT. |
| 2015-09-30 5:09 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Extreme Veteran 586 Richmond | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Swim and bike are opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard, because triathlon biking is esentially zero technique, while swimming in any contex is hugely technique dependant. Because of this, repeating key bike sessions over and over is fine, as long as the power keeps going up. Basic stuff like 2 x 20:00, s, 5 x 5:00s, etc. Just need to work the engine for the most part. For swimming, variety is a key (or maybe the key) to adaption, and not only should sets be varied in terms of duration and rest, activities should be varied as well. My favorites are speed play (build-up, descends and negative splits), kick sets, one arm freestyle, breath pattern work and my favorite, combing kicking and pulling in various combinations. Now running, running is weird. Probably closer to biking in terms of the actual need for variety, but I probably weav a biut more variety into my run training. I am big on hills, both short hard repeats of less than :30, 5:00 repeats on the treadmill at Vo2 max intensity, and longer uphill tempo runs. But before all that, I want to see consistent injury free running for a good period of time. Not hurting yourself is top priority for any run program. |
| 2015-09-30 5:17 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247  Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Yes, sometimes. I have "go to" sessions that I do when I lack other ideas, particularly when not doing race-specific training. In swimming, I have workouts that are sets of the same distance (from 100 to 500m) but the repeats are different things--could be drill, freestyle, stroke, build, IM, fast, easy, kick, pull, etc. etc. I tend to "dork out" and lose count, and my form starts falling apart if I try to do a huge set of the same thing. For running, yes, for some speed work sessions. It's a holdover from our HS coach. We aways had a progression with speed work but we would often spend two weeks at the same level of the progression. There was not a huge variety of workouts (mostly 800 and 400 repeats, 800m hill repeats, or sets of 800-400-400 at about 3K pace), but of course we got faster over time, and I think the recovery interval decreased. When I follow some "canned" programs now, I find that the progression is too fast and I can't hit the intervals. It works better for me to repeat the same week twice, and then go on. Maybe that has to do with age at this point--I adapt more slowly than the generic "runner" that the plan is written for. Particularly with a workout or set I haven't done before, it usually goes much better the second time, probably not only because of fitness but I have a better idea how to pace myself to finish strong. Edited by Hot Runner 2015-09-30 5:18 PM |
| 2015-10-01 7:39 AM in reply to: Finding Freestyle |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Swim and bike are opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard, because triathlon biking is esentially zero technique, while swimming in any contex is hugely technique dependant. Because of this, repeating key bike sessions over and over is fine, as long as the power keeps going up. Basic stuff like 2 x 20:00, s, 5 x 5:00s, etc. Just need to work the engine for the most part. For swimming, variety is a key (or maybe the key) to adaption, and not only should sets be varied in terms of duration and rest, activities should be varied as well. My favorites are speed play (build-up, descends and negative splits), kick sets, one arm freestyle, breath pattern work and my favorite, combing kicking and pulling in various combinations. Now running, running is weird. Probably closer to biking in terms of the actual need for variety, but I probably weav a biut more variety into my run training. I am big on hills, both short hard repeats of less than :30, 5:00 repeats on the treadmill at Vo2 max intensity, and longer uphill tempo runs. But before all that, I want to see consistent injury free running for a good period of time. Not hurting yourself is top priority for any run program. I agree and disagree with some of what you said on this. You can repeat bike sessions and do the same numbers, but use different stimulus to change the goal or load of the workout. For example 5x3' at "x" watts, could turn into a build workout, where the same TSS is accomplished but you have worked through a wider range of watts, doing big gear, or hill work for strength. What many people fail to look at is the external stresses placed on the body such as heat, wind, etc. 5x3' at "x" watts at 95 degrees is not the same as in 60 degrees, or 2 weeks into a heavy block of training or a short night of sleep. If one can repeat the same exact ride deeper into a build with more fatigue accumulated it shows they are riding stronger. Thats a bit where I was trying to get people to think with this one. Repetition is your friend but I think many people think if the sessions are the same its pointless, just an observation. |
| 2015-10-01 8:43 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus I haven't been into the sport long, so I'm still building my tool kit a bit. For each sport I have enough go-to workouts that I can add variation, but I'm not sure if it is enough yet. But as I learn more, I'm adding different types of workouts. My current bag of tricks are: Running: 5 mile interval (7 x 400) 5 mile interval (4 x 800) 7 mile tempo (1 mile WU, 5 mile at pace, 1 mile CD) 12 mile long run ("hills" on the treadmill) 6 mile easy steady state run Bike: 30 mile interval (7 x 4min) 30 mile "hills" (bridge) 30 mile interval (4 x 10min) 50-65 mile steady state 1 hr on trainer (intervals by songs...one fast one slow) Swimming is totally different. When I'm with my masters group I do their workout. When I travel (which is a lot) I was doing the same workout every time, which was all freestyle 50's and 100's with a warm up and cool down. Lately I have REALLY opened this up. I'm doing UDKing a lot, IMs, drills, kick sets, you name it, and I've found a new love for swimming. I did 3x100yd IMs this morning and kept every one under 1:30. That's huge for me. I need to broaden my run and bike, but with the workouts above, I'm able to keep some variety. I'm getting a power meter this week, so I hope to really expand on the bike, which is where I need the most work. |
| 2015-10-01 9:08 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Swim: I don't think my masters coach has ever repeated a workout. It's always a bit of a surprise when we show up, which makes it fun if nothing else. There's always a theme to the practice, but the specific drills and sets vary. I often do one workout on my own every week and normally will work on areas where I need work on my technique or on longer endurance sets if approaching a triathlon. Bike: I tend to repeat workouts more on the bike, mostly due to the available routes that I ride.. Most of it is at a steady pace. When I'm building for an upcoming race I'll do some interval workouts, but they're not a part of my regular routine. Run: I do a better job of mixing up my runs than I do my bike rides. I try not to run the same route or distance twice in a row. I set my training paces based on my most current race results using the McMillan charts. One thing I have starting doing in the last couple of years is doing one weekly run at the McMillan Tempo or Steady State pace. I'm 62 and in the last year or so, I've seen a noticeable increase in my recovery and rest needs, particularly after races and long runs. I'm starting to look at adjusting my running and cycling training to trade some of volume for intensity. Mark |
| 2015-10-01 12:31 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Originally posted by 3mar Running: 5 mile interval (7 x 400) 5 mile interval (4 x 800) 7 mile tempo (1 mile WU, 5 mile at pace, 1 mile CD) 12 mile long run ("hills" on the treadmill) 6 mile easy steady state run I am assuming these are your "go to" workouts for different type of runs? I first read this and was like "whoa he does this in a week?" Then I went back and reread it. How do you pace the 400/800 intervals? What is your focus, what are you goals? What is your "Steady state" and how does it differ from tempo? What pace/effort do you run long at? |
| 2015-10-01 1:34 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Weather dependent I pretty much do the same weekly workout schedule and workouts. I've been doing this pretty steady for 4-5 years. The only thing that really changes is the time of year and if I can get outside. Most of my runs are by feel. Over winter mostly easy and spring adding in some speed work. Breaking out of my bike funk this winter with trainerroad. I don't have a set rest day, again more by how I feel. I should break it up more but I'm kind of lazy and it makes scheduling stuff, dealing with family and such easier. I may switch up say long run to middle of the week but pretty much all the workouts are similar. Probably should try working with a coach one year to break it up. M - run AM, trainer(intervals) PM T - swim PM (med dist sets mixed in), treadmill run (depending on time of yr speed work) W - trainer (long ride) PM Thurs - run AM, swim PM (mostly short sets) Fri - run AM, Swim PM (long swim added from time to time) Sat - run(long) Sun - Ride (outdoor) Great, now I'm depressed realizing I do the same thing over and over again like Groundhog Day. |
| 2015-10-01 2:13 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 586 Richmond | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Swim and bike are opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard, because triathlon biking is esentially zero technique, while swimming in any contex is hugely technique dependant. Because of this, repeating key bike sessions over and over is fine, as long as the power keeps going up. Basic stuff like 2 x 20:00, s, 5 x 5:00s, etc. Just need to work the engine for the most part. For swimming, variety is a key (or maybe the key) to adaption, and not only should sets be varied in terms of duration and rest, activities should be varied as well. My favorites are speed play (build-up, descends and negative splits), kick sets, one arm freestyle, breath pattern work and my favorite, combing kicking and pulling in various combinations. Now running, running is weird. Probably closer to biking in terms of the actual need for variety, but I probably weav a biut more variety into my run training. I am big on hills, both short hard repeats of less than :30, 5:00 repeats on the treadmill at Vo2 max intensity, and longer uphill tempo runs. But before all that, I want to see consistent injury free running for a good period of time. Not hurting yourself is top priority for any run program. I agree and disagree with some of what you said on this. You can repeat bike sessions and do the same numbers, but use different stimulus to change the goal or load of the workout. For example 5x3' at "x" watts, could turn into a build workout, where the same TSS is accomplished but you have worked through a wider range of watts, doing big gear, or hill work for strength. What many people fail to look at is the external stresses placed on the body such as heat, wind, etc. 5x3' at "x" watts at 95 degrees is not the same as in 60 degrees, or 2 weeks into a heavy block of training or a short night of sleep. If one can repeat the same exact ride deeper into a build with more fatigue accumulated it shows they are riding stronger. Thats a bit where I was trying to get people to think with this one. Repetition is your friend but I think many people think if the sessions are the same its pointless, just an observation. I dont think you really disagree with me. I would add to what you wrote and say you could do a bike session at LESS power than in the past, and it is still a "good" session. Power should come up over the mid and long term, while short term variability is what it is. Edited by Finding Freestyle 2015-10-01 2:41 PM |
| 2015-10-01 2:32 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by 3mar Running: 5 mile interval (7 x 400) 5 mile interval (4 x 800) 7 mile tempo (1 mile WU, 5 mile at pace, 1 mile CD) 12 mile long run ("hills" on the treadmill) 6 mile easy steady state run I am assuming these are your "go to" workouts for different type of runs? I first read this and was like "whoa he does this in a week?" Then I went back and reread it. How do you pace the 400/800 intervals? What is your focus, what are you goals? What is your "Steady state" and how does it differ from tempo? What pace/effort do you run long at? I try to do three workouts of each sport each week (so at least two double workout or brick days). For running, I like to do one interval, one steady state and one long run each week. I normally alternate between 800's and 400's week to week. In the winter, when it is in the 70's in the morning, I will do tempo runs, where I do a mile warm up, then 5 miles at half-marathon pace (around 7:00-7:15MM) then a mile cool down. In the summer, when the heat index never gets below 90, no matter what time of day, I replace those with 6 miles at zone2/zone3 steady, which is my only outdoor run (it's just too oppressively hot to get any speed or distance work). Also, in the summer I do my intervals inside on the treadmill. The long run is done on the treadmill as well in the summer, but I do hills to get various intensities throughout. I used to live in NYC and central park and the park along the Hudson (up north in the 120's) have some nice rolling hills up to about 150' climbs. I have a treadmill that lets me map out runs and mimics the course elevation. Below is the 12-miler I did last Sunday. I kept it at an 8:20 MM pace the whole time and let the hills dictate intensity changes. And example week for me would be: Sunday: 12 miles (hills-treadmill) Monday: 3,300 m swimming (masters) Tuesday: 30 miles bike (intervals) / 6 miles steady state z2/z3 run Wednesday: 3,300 m swimming (masters) Thursday: 20 miles trainer (steady state) / 5 miles intervals running (treadmill) Friday: 3,300 m swimming (masters) Saturday: 65 mile bike / 2 mile run Edit: I realize I didn't answer your question on the interval pacing. I try to do my 400's at a little slower than 5k pace and my 800's right around 10k pace. When I'm on the treadmill I can zero right in and I like that I can have a lot of control over the speed (no matter how tired I get) but outside it's a bit more variable. Edited by 3mar 2015-10-01 2:35 PM (Capture.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Capture.JPG (36KB - 2 downloads) |
| 2015-10-02 9:16 AM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Weather dependent I pretty much do the same weekly workout schedule and workouts. I've been doing this pretty steady for 4-5 years. The only thing that really changes is the time of year and if I can get outside. Most of my runs are by feel. Over winter mostly easy and spring adding in some speed work. Breaking out of my bike funk this winter with trainerroad. I don't have a set rest day, again more by how I feel. I should break it up more but I'm kind of lazy and it makes scheduling stuff, dealing with family and such easier. I may switch up say long run to middle of the week but pretty much all the workouts are similar. Probably should try working with a coach one year to break it up. M - run AM, trainer(intervals) PM T - swim PM (med dist sets mixed in), treadmill run (depending on time of yr speed work) W - trainer (long ride) PM Thurs - run AM, swim PM (mostly short sets) Fri - run AM, Swim PM (long swim added from time to time) Sat - run(long) Sun - Ride (outdoor) Great, now I'm depressed realizing I do the same thing over and over again like Groundhog Day. If you are doing the same thing over and over again and not seeing results or improvement that a change is in order. You wouldn't even need to change your schedule, just how the body is stressed in each session, that is a bit where I was going with this post. Repetition is your friend, its a great way to see if you are improving, if you are constantly changing everything then the body won't adapt as well. Adaptions takes about 6-8 weeks to occur. I personally like to do the same sessions within each 6-8 week block and measure improvement in that period of time by repeating sessions, then the next block redo the same thing. |
| 2015-10-02 9:52 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus " If you are doing the same thing over and over again and not seeing results or improvement that a change is in order. You wouldn't even need to change your schedule, just how the body is stressed in each session, that is a bit where I was going with this post. I guess I tweak it enough. Typing it out makes me think I should change it up a bit more. I've seen solid gains every year since I started. There's obvious variables but in the same races I've done multiple years I continue to PR. I've done one race now for 6 or 7 years. I'm starting to see a trend here. The farther in I get I wonder if this will be the last year I improve. |
| 2015-10-02 10:11 AM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Why do you think this will be the last year you will improve? Have your improvements been smaller each year? Is your progress matching up with your goals? Are you reaching your goals each year? |
| 2015-10-02 10:12 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus I'll quite regularly go with much the same schedule of easy/hard work for months at a time, but the composition of them will change much more often. The hard work is what changes more so than easy. Change the balance of VO2max vs Threshold. Maybe more at or over threshold than under. Maybe I need a little break from as much hard work and lighten up the overall amount of it. |
| 2015-10-02 10:28 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Repeating Sessions, changing stimulus Originally posted by bcagle25 Why do you think this will be the last year you will improve? Only because I'm getting older so at some point time will catch up. Have your improvements been smaller each year? They get a bit smaller each year as I have less low hanging fruit to harvest. Is your progress matching up with your goals? Are you reaching your goals each year? Yes and no. I set lofty and realistic goals each year. For example, this year realistic - finish a 70.3 ; lofty - consistenly place in AG and finish FOP OA in all the sprints I did. IDK if this will be the last year I improve. That's just a thougth I have each year.
Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2015-10-02 10:29 AM |
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