General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ? Rss Feed  
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2015-10-03 11:25 AM


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Subject: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
I keep reading and being told that watching power on bike is the best measure to watch. I have just moved indoors for the fall/winter. I have a fluid trainer which is like new and I paid new price for it so I don't want to throw it away and buy a power measuring trainer. I don't understand what you need to measure power but assume it is the trainer. I have heard that a power meter trainer is 1500 which is too much for my budget at the moment. Are there any ways to measure power that are cheaper or that you can use with your existing fluid trainer ?


2015-10-03 11:45 AM
in reply to: CarolynS

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
A power meter will measure power on your bike and is installed in one of various places on the bike itself (wheel, pedals, crank shaft, etc.) The price on these ranges from a few hundred dollars up to $1500 or more. Another option is to use a speed/ cadence sensor with a USB Ant+ and connect your current trainer with something like Trainer Road. They calculate a "virtual" power and while maybe not the most accurate, it will give you fairly consistent power measurements that you can use for training. A good resource on all things power is DC Rainmaker.com
2015-10-03 11:56 AM
in reply to: CarolynS

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
Here you go. This is a chart you can use on your trainer to use mph much like watts.

http://thebikegeek.blogspot.com/2009/12/while-we-wait-for-better-an...
2015-10-03 12:06 PM
in reply to: EKH

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
I have a Cycleops Powercal, it is an Ant+ heart rate strap that does a power calculation. The numbers I get off it are extremely comparable to watts I get on the spin bike at the gym and the "virtual" watt numbers on Zwift. Costs less than $100, but you do need a device that can display power, I use my Garmin 310XT.
2015-10-03 1:48 PM
in reply to: CarolynS

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Your best bet IMO) is to get a power meter on your bike and use it with your existing trainer.  Then you can continue to train with power once you get back outside.  As said above, there is a huge range of prices on them depending on what you want/need.

2015-10-03 2:03 PM
in reply to: CarolynS


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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
While there are trainers that measure power, more common (and practical) is a power meter on your bike. That way you can have power inside and out on the road. You can pick up a used Power Tap wheel for pretty cheap. Do some research.


2015-10-03 2:26 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
Originally posted by axteraa

Your best bet IMO) is to get a power meter on your bike and use it with your existing trainer.  Then you can continue to train with power once you get back outside.  As said above, there is a huge range of prices on them depending on what you want/need.




I agree 100% but with a slight twist of sequence. If her Fluid trainer does virtual power, do that over the winter since it's almost free (if your trainer supports it). IF you like training with power, then conisder buying a PM as suggest by Arend. training by power is not for everyone. I would hate to see you spec $x00 and not like it. Chances are by the time you go outdoor PMs will have dropped even further :-).


2015-10-03 2:39 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by axteraa

Your best bet IMO) is to get a power meter on your bike and use it with your existing trainer.  Then you can continue to train with power once you get back outside.  As said above, there is a huge range of prices on them depending on what you want/need.

I agree 100% but with a slight twist of sequence. If her Fluid trainer does virtual power, do that over the winter since it's almost free (if your trainer supports it). IF you like training with power, then conisder buying a PM as suggest by Arend. training by power is not for everyone. I would hate to see you spec $x00 and not like it. Chances are by the time you go outdoor PMs will have dropped even further :-).

Excellent point!

2015-10-03 4:08 PM
in reply to: CarolynS

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Originally posted by CarolynS I keep reading and being told that watching power on bike is the best measure to watch. I have just moved indoors for the fall/winter. I have a fluid trainer which is like new and I paid new price for it so I don't want to throw it away and buy a power measuring trainer. I don't understand what you need to measure power but assume it is the trainer. I have heard that a power meter trainer is 1500 which is too much for my budget at the moment. Are there any ways to measure power that are cheaper or that you can use with your existing fluid trainer ?
Its true, with a trainer one can use "virtual" power (VP) to train with. Since is an absolute based on speed, it removes the subjectivity of RPE and lag issues of a HRM.  You can get a powermeter for about a 3rd-half of that plus installation.

There are a couple of ways you can use VP, both require that you have a sensor that measures speed on the rear wheel:

1) You have an ANT+ speed/cadence sensor such as Garmin CS10, or a speed only only like this Garmin unit.

  • For this to be used with a PC you also need an ANT+ receiver such as the Suunto Movestick Mini.
  • Then the PC/laptop will run a trainer program such as MaximumTrainer or TrainerRoad (there are others too). These are subscription based (~ $48 and $99 respectively). You can also use a Mac/iPad with the programs.  For the iPad you need another dongle type and can only use TR program.
  • With the programs above, you do the setup process, one of which is where you find your trainer model.  The program will use the trainer speed vs watts curve to calculate virtual power display on the screen as you are pedaling. Here's an example of a curve for the KK Road Machine trainer:

  • Trainer road has a lot of training plans you can access and use.  Maximum Trainer is rather new and very limited but does have the BT Winter Cycling plan incorporated in to it.  I have made some others for it.

2) If you only have a speedometer and do not want to invest in ANT+ sensors, a new head unit, etc., right now.  It is possible to use a spreadsheet to get started as long as the formula for the trainer is known.  When I first started out 6 years ago that's what I did.  I implemented the BT cycling plan in a spreadsheet and printed out the workouts and had them on a high table next to me and went to work.  I still have that but it is made for the KK curve shown above.

2015-10-03 9:08 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by axteraa

Your best bet IMO) is to get a power meter on your bike and use it with your existing trainer.  Then you can continue to train with power once you get back outside.  As said above, there is a huge range of prices on them depending on what you want/need.

I agree 100% but with a slight twist of sequence. If her Fluid trainer does virtual power, do that over the winter since it's almost free (if your trainer supports it). IF you like training with power, then conisder buying a PM as suggest by Arend. training by power is not for everyone. I would hate to see you spec $x00 and not like it. Chances are by the time you go outdoor PMs will have dropped even further :-).

Excellent point!




X3, I've done Virtual power with my KK Fluid trainer the last couple winters. I still don't have a PM for the outdoors but structured workouts during the winter using Virtual Power is a great way to go.
2015-10-04 2:58 PM
in reply to: #5144542


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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
Thank you all. Very helpful. My supportive spouse got me a high level garmin that I've never figured out which sounds like would have what is required to use virtual power. With these tips I feel like I might have a chance of figuring it out. The reaearch I had tried was too confusing for me to figure out


2015-10-05 8:06 AM
in reply to: reecealan

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
I use virtual power and TrainerRoad on my iPhone (I think they might have it on Android phones as well). Total cost was $60 for a Wahoo SC speed/cadence sensor, and $10/month for TrainerRoad. Very easy to get started. You can cancel TrainerRoad at any time so you're only risking $70 total if you decide you don't like it.

I highly recommend training with power. It has made a huge difference in my performance!

2015-10-05 8:23 AM
in reply to: CarolynS

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
Originally posted by CarolynS

Thank you all. Very helpful. My supportive spouse got me a high level garmin that I've never figured out which sounds like would have what is required to use virtual power. With these tips I feel like I might have a chance of figuring it out. The reaearch I had tried was too confusing for me to figure out


What kind of trainer, make & model, do you have ? This may narrow down or open up your options.
2015-10-06 9:32 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
To utilize VirtualPower with TrainerRoad, you don't actually need a Garmin or any other head unit for that matter. We communicate directly with your power meter or speed/cadence sensor from either the iOS or Mac/Windows device you download the app onto. In order to use VP, all you'll need is an ANT or Bluetooth speed/cadence sensor, and then an ANT or Bluetooth USB or key (for iOS devices) so that TrainerRoad can then communicate with your device. Check out our Equipment Checker page for more info on getting the final pieces of your setup locked down: Equipment Checker

Also, I'd recommend checking out this video to help give you a better understanding of the whole thing: How it Works

Edited by trevorderuise 2015-10-06 9:33 AM
2015-10-08 9:35 PM
in reply to: #5144542


71
2525
, Ontario
Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
I am getting closer to figuring this out. I think. The trainer road virtual power seems like the best option for me. I have a giant fluid st trainer and a garmin edge 800 with a wheel sensor that tells me what speed I'm going on the trainer. I don't have an iPhone but I do have a mini iPad. How do I connect the garmin sensor information to the iPad to connect to trainer road ?
2015-10-08 10:04 PM
in reply to: #5145568

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?
Check out this page an TR, http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201618914-ANT-Conn...
Looks like you will need a adapter to use an ANT+ key. It might be a better option to just get a wahoo Bluetooth speed sensor instead. Your iThingy should work directly with it. More info is on the TR sutr


2015-10-09 9:43 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Originally posted by Oysterboy I have a Cycleops Powercal, it is an Ant+ heart rate strap that does a power calculation. The numbers I get off it are extremely comparable to watts I get on the spin bike at the gym and the "virtual" watt numbers on Zwift. Costs less than $100, but you do need a device that can display power, I use my Garmin 310XT.

Before I got my PT, I would use a Powercal for outdoor Z2 rides and virtual power via TR for interval sessions.  It worked out pretty well for me.

2015-10-09 4:24 PM
in reply to: EKH

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Originally posted by EKH Here you go. This is a chart you can use on your trainer to use mph much like watts. http://thebikegeek.blogspot.com/2009/12/while-we-wait-for-better-an...

For those that have a pm and a fluid2 does the curve in this article seem reasonable?  I'm usually in the 16.2 to 16.8 mph range and am wondering if those watt numbers are in the ballpark.

2015-10-09 4:39 PM
in reply to: popsracer

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by EKH Here you go. This is a chart you can use on your trainer to use mph much like watts. http://thebikegeek.blogspot.com/2009/12/while-we-wait-for-better-an...

For those that have a pm and a fluid2 does the curve in this article seem reasonable?  I'm usually in the 16.2 to 16.8 mph range and am wondering if those watt numbers are in the ballpark.

Yes, that's close to what I have for the Fluid2.  I've attached the more detailed spreadsheet that I use.

BTW, I didn't read the whole thread, because it looks like the OP has been given a lot of good advice, and there was nothing to add, so I may have missed it, but it should be noted that every model of fluid trainer has a distinctive power curve.  This one is for the CycleOps Fluid2 only.  If you're using a KK Road Machine or another one, a different chart needs to be used.

 





Attachments
----------------
CycleOps Fluid 2 Power Curve.xls (41KB - 11 downloads)
2015-10-09 5:54 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by EKH Here you go. This is a chart you can use on your trainer to use mph much like watts. http://thebikegeek.blogspot.com/2009/12/while-we-wait-for-better-an...

For those that have a pm and a fluid2 does the curve in this article seem reasonable?  I'm usually in the 16.2 to 16.8 mph range and am wondering if those watt numbers are in the ballpark.

Yes, that's close to what I have for the Fluid2.  I've attached the more detailed spreadsheet that I use.

BTW, I didn't read the whole thread, because it looks like the OP has been given a lot of good advice, and there was nothing to add, so I may have missed it, but it should be noted that every model of fluid trainer has a distinctive power curve.  This one is for the CycleOps Fluid2 only.  If you're using a KK Road Machine or another one, a different chart needs to be used.

 

My wife's fluid2 isn't consistent at all - especially for the first 20-25 minutes of a workout.  As an example she recently did a workout that had 6 x 5:00 intervals

1. 186w - 33.2 km/hr
2. 202w - 32.2 km/hr
3. 202w - 31.0 km/hr
4. 203w - 30.6 km/hr
5. 202w - 30.1 km/hr
6. 202w - 30.1 km/hr

In contrast, my KK

1. 307w - 36.6 km/hr
2. 308w - 36.8 km/hr
3. 308w - 36.8 km/hr
4. 309w - 36.7 km/hr
5. 309w - 36.7 km/hr

2015-10-09 6:30 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Can you switch to power with existing fluid trainer ?

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by EKH Here you go. This is a chart you can use on your trainer to use mph much like watts. http://thebikegeek.blogspot.com/2009/12/while-we-wait-for-better-an...

For those that have a pm and a fluid2 does the curve in this article seem reasonable?  I'm usually in the 16.2 to 16.8 mph range and am wondering if those watt numbers are in the ballpark.

Yes, that's close to what I have for the Fluid2.  I've attached the more detailed spreadsheet that I use.

BTW, I didn't read the whole thread, because it looks like the OP has been given a lot of good advice, and there was nothing to add, so I may have missed it, but it should be noted that every model of fluid trainer has a distinctive power curve.  This one is for the CycleOps Fluid2 only.  If you're using a KK Road Machine or another one, a different chart needs to be used.

 

My wife's fluid2 isn't consistent at all - especially for the first 20-25 minutes of a workout.  As an example she recently did a workout that had 6 x 5:00 intervals

1. 186w - 33.2 km/hr
2. 202w - 32.2 km/hr
3. 202w - 31.0 km/hr
4. 203w - 30.6 km/hr
5. 202w - 30.1 km/hr
6. 202w - 30.1 km/hr

In contrast, my KK

1. 307w - 36.6 km/hr
2. 308w - 36.8 km/hr
3. 308w - 36.8 km/hr
4. 309w - 36.7 km/hr
5. 309w - 36.7 km/hr

There are several of instances of the COF2 not being stable on the other site. Never ever heard of an issue with the KK unit (after the warm up period of course)



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