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2015-10-06 5:52 PM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by mdg2003
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by mdg2003 I'd be curious to know how many people at that school had a CHL but were not carrying because of it being a gun free zone. Was there someone there with CHL that could have stopped this a**hole had they been allowed to carry? I wonder if anyone present at any of these mass killings were CHL people that weren't carrying because of the gun free status.

I read a story yesterday in which a student at that school was interviewed.  According to the story the guy had a CHL and was carrying when the shooting started.  His professor asked if anyone had a weapon and he raised his hand.  He stayed on lock down with the rest of his classmates and the professor, but let everyone know that he would use his handgun in defense if the shooter came through the door.  He did exactly what I would hope someone in that situation would - (1) not go running across campus to engage the shooter, (2) let those around him know he was armed, and (3) stay on lock down in a defensive mode.  Texas has had concealed carry for years and recently adopted open carry and campus carry - all of which requires training and a CHL.  Now that guns are allowed on campus, I hope there is training on how to properly act in such a situation.  University of Texas Chancellor William McRaven, former 4 Star Admiral and commander of the Navy Seals, sent a letter to the Texas Legislature when the campus carry bill was being considered.  In the letter, McRaven noted that campus will be "less safe" with the presence of guns - noting his belief that accidental discharge and self-inflicted injuries would likely rise.  He's probably right.  Once the bill became law, McRaven's focus shifted to making the campus as safe as possible with guns present.

 

      

I agree that the student did do the right thing. That's primary function of CHL- defense. Had he gone after the shooter, that's going on offense. Going on offense is an entirely different issue and requires more training. Extensive and exhaustive training in order to be an asset and not liability.

Not to mention the last thing you want to be doing during an active shooting scenario is running across campus with a gun.  just saying.  

My primary goal is to always protect myself and my family if I'm in a deadly threat situation.  However, I just can't imagine being in a situation and just watching somebody kill somebody else without intervening in some capacity.  I think it's our basic human instinct to help others in distress and even the most anti-gun person I know wouldn't hesitate to jump in (even with his bare hands) to help save another life when given the chance.



2015-10-07 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??
Originally posted by Left Brain

On our way to hunt down an armed robbery suspect we just identified....17 years old.  This will be the 4th Robbery 1st arrest for this kid in 10 months.  Hasn't even been to trial on any of the other charges and he's out robbing other folks. (but he is on probation for his first charge on a plea deal....but no revocation due to the other arrests)  This is a non-stop occurence for us.  Virtually everybody we are looking for with regard to gun crimes are persons with prior arrests/convictions. 

We figure the general public and people wanting to get rid of guns are either ignorant of this or just clueless about how big the problem is.

Maybe for fun when we get this kid I'll tell him that I am going to see if I can get his voting rights taken away when he is 18.  LMAO




I am absolutely for minimum sentencing for crimes committed with a firearm. I don't know how long....but however long it is it should be long enough to mean something.

Something is wrong if a guy can walk out of the court room charged with arm robbery as a free man.



Edited by Jackemy1 2015-10-07 10:53 AM
2015-10-07 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by Left Brain

On our way to hunt down an armed robbery suspect we just identified....17 years old.  This will be the 4th Robbery 1st arrest for this kid in 10 months.  Hasn't even been to trial on any of the other charges and he's out robbing other folks. (but he is on probation for his first charge on a plea deal....but no revocation due to the other arrests)  This is a non-stop occurence for us.  Virtually everybody we are looking for with regard to gun crimes are persons with prior arrests/convictions. 

We figure the general public and people wanting to get rid of guns are either ignorant of this or just clueless about how big the problem is.

Maybe for fun when we get this kid I'll tell him that I am going to see if I can get his voting rights taken away when he is 18.  LMAO

I am absolutely for minimum sentencing for crimes committed with a firearm. I don't know how long....but however long it is it should be long enough to mean something. Something is wrong if a guy can walk out of the court room charged with arm robbery as a free man.

It happens multiple times per day in every city in America.  But hey, we should take guns away from people who don't use them to commit crimes.....because, you know, that's the problem.

2015-10-07 12:38 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by Left Brain

On our way to hunt down an armed robbery suspect we just identified....17 years old.  This will be the 4th Robbery 1st arrest for this kid in 10 months.  Hasn't even been to trial on any of the other charges and he's out robbing other folks. (but he is on probation for his first charge on a plea deal....but no revocation due to the other arrests)  This is a non-stop occurence for us.  Virtually everybody we are looking for with regard to gun crimes are persons with prior arrests/convictions. 

We figure the general public and people wanting to get rid of guns are either ignorant of this or just clueless about how big the problem is.

Maybe for fun when we get this kid I'll tell him that I am going to see if I can get his voting rights taken away when he is 18.  LMAO

I am absolutely for minimum sentencing for crimes committed with a firearm. I don't know how long....but however long it is it should be long enough to mean something. Something is wrong if a guy can walk out of the court room charged with arm robbery as a free man.

It happens multiple times per day in every city in America.  But hey, we should take guns away from people who don't use them to commit crimes.....because, you know, that's the problem.

I saw an article on Facebook a month or so ago of a cop standing with a guy who tried to stab him 10 months earlier who had just gotten out of jail.  It was a nice article about how the guy had overcome a lot, gotten sober, etc. and that he was able to be friendly with the cop who put him away.  However, my first thought was WTF, he tried to kill a cop and he's already on the street after 10 months.  /facepalm

 

2015-10-07 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by mdg2003
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by mdg2003 I'd be curious to know how many people at that school had a CHL but were not carrying because of it being a gun free zone. Was there someone there with CHL that could have stopped this a**hole had they been allowed to carry? I wonder if anyone present at any of these mass killings were CHL people that weren't carrying because of the gun free status.

I read a story yesterday in which a student at that school was interviewed.  According to the story the guy had a CHL and was carrying when the shooting started.  His professor asked if anyone had a weapon and he raised his hand.  He stayed on lock down with the rest of his classmates and the professor, but let everyone know that he would use his handgun in defense if the shooter came through the door.  He did exactly what I would hope someone in that situation would - (1) not go running across campus to engage the shooter, (2) let those around him know he was armed, and (3) stay on lock down in a defensive mode.  Texas has had concealed carry for years and recently adopted open carry and campus carry - all of which requires training and a CHL.  Now that guns are allowed on campus, I hope there is training on how to properly act in such a situation.  University of Texas Chancellor William McRaven, former 4 Star Admiral and commander of the Navy Seals, sent a letter to the Texas Legislature when the campus carry bill was being considered.  In the letter, McRaven noted that campus will be "less safe" with the presence of guns - noting his belief that accidental discharge and self-inflicted injuries would likely rise.  He's probably right.  Once the bill became law, McRaven's focus shifted to making the campus as safe as possible with guns present.

 

      

I agree that the student did do the right thing. That's primary function of CHL- defense. Had he gone after the shooter, that's going on offense. Going on offense is an entirely different issue and requires more training. Extensive and exhaustive training in order to be an asset and not liability.

The stupidity of this woman is not helping the CHL cause. link



Edited by Bob Loblaw 2015-10-07 1:03 PM
2015-10-07 1:12 PM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by mdg2003
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by mdg2003 I'd be curious to know how many people at that school had a CHL but were not carrying because of it being a gun free zone. Was there someone there with CHL that could have stopped this a**hole had they been allowed to carry? I wonder if anyone present at any of these mass killings were CHL people that weren't carrying because of the gun free status.

I read a story yesterday in which a student at that school was interviewed.  According to the story the guy had a CHL and was carrying when the shooting started.  His professor asked if anyone had a weapon and he raised his hand.  He stayed on lock down with the rest of his classmates and the professor, but let everyone know that he would use his handgun in defense if the shooter came through the door.  He did exactly what I would hope someone in that situation would - (1) not go running across campus to engage the shooter, (2) let those around him know he was armed, and (3) stay on lock down in a defensive mode.  Texas has had concealed carry for years and recently adopted open carry and campus carry - all of which requires training and a CHL.  Now that guns are allowed on campus, I hope there is training on how to properly act in such a situation.  University of Texas Chancellor William McRaven, former 4 Star Admiral and commander of the Navy Seals, sent a letter to the Texas Legislature when the campus carry bill was being considered.  In the letter, McRaven noted that campus will be "less safe" with the presence of guns - noting his belief that accidental discharge and self-inflicted injuries would likely rise.  He's probably right.  Once the bill became law, McRaven's focus shifted to making the campus as safe as possible with guns present.

 

      

I agree that the student did do the right thing. That's primary function of CHL- defense. Had he gone after the shooter, that's going on offense. Going on offense is an entirely different issue and requires more training. Extensive and exhaustive training in order to be an asset and not liability.

The stupidity of this woman is not helping the CHL cause. link

I wonder what the whoe story is on that since the story is "not sure if charges against the woman will be filed".  On face value, I thik she should be because she looks like she may be a lunatic.  On the other hand....if the vehicle was trying to run someone over, and it's on video....then I don't know.  I wouldn't do it, but in some cases, and under some state laws, a private citizen may have a bigger right to shoot at someone than a Police Officer would.  The picture can get pretty cloudy.

You have to be careful with these kinds of stories........the media has an agenda in almost everything they produce these days.  I'm not defending her, like I already said.....but I'd like to see what else there is.



2015-10-07 1:13 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by mdg2003
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by mdg2003 I'd be curious to know how many people at that school had a CHL but were not carrying because of it being a gun free zone. Was there someone there with CHL that could have stopped this a**hole had they been allowed to carry? I wonder if anyone present at any of these mass killings were CHL people that weren't carrying because of the gun free status.

I read a story yesterday in which a student at that school was interviewed.  According to the story the guy had a CHL and was carrying when the shooting started.  His professor asked if anyone had a weapon and he raised his hand.  He stayed on lock down with the rest of his classmates and the professor, but let everyone know that he would use his handgun in defense if the shooter came through the door.  He did exactly what I would hope someone in that situation would - (1) not go running across campus to engage the shooter, (2) let those around him know he was armed, and (3) stay on lock down in a defensive mode.  Texas has had concealed carry for years and recently adopted open carry and campus carry - all of which requires training and a CHL.  Now that guns are allowed on campus, I hope there is training on how to properly act in such a situation.  University of Texas Chancellor William McRaven, former 4 Star Admiral and commander of the Navy Seals, sent a letter to the Texas Legislature when the campus carry bill was being considered.  In the letter, McRaven noted that campus will be "less safe" with the presence of guns - noting his belief that accidental discharge and self-inflicted injuries would likely rise.  He's probably right.  Once the bill became law, McRaven's focus shifted to making the campus as safe as possible with guns present.

 

      

I agree that the student did do the right thing. That's primary function of CHL- defense. Had he gone after the shooter, that's going on offense. Going on offense is an entirely different issue and requires more training. Extensive and exhaustive training in order to be an asset and not liability.

The stupidity of this woman is not helping the CHL cause. link

I wonder what the whoe story is on that since the story is "not sure if charges against the woman will be filed".  On face value, I thik she should be because she looks like she may be a lunatic.  On the other hand....if the vehicle was trying to run someone over, and it's on video....then I don't know.  I wouldn't do it, but in some cases, and under some state laws, a private citizen may have a bigger right to shoot at someone than a Police Officer would.  The picture can get pretty cloudy.

You have to be careful with these kinds of stories........the media has an agenda in almost everything they produce these days.  I'm not defending her, like I already said.....but I'd like to see what else there is.

I'm with LB, on the surface with what little information we have it looks like she's an idiot.  She's dang lucky she didn't hit anyone.

2015-10-07 1:28 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by mdg2003
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by mdg2003 I'd be curious to know how many people at that school had a CHL but were not carrying because of it being a gun free zone. Was there someone there with CHL that could have stopped this a**hole had they been allowed to carry? I wonder if anyone present at any of these mass killings were CHL people that weren't carrying because of the gun free status.

I read a story yesterday in which a student at that school was interviewed.  According to the story the guy had a CHL and was carrying when the shooting started.  His professor asked if anyone had a weapon and he raised his hand.  He stayed on lock down with the rest of his classmates and the professor, but let everyone know that he would use his handgun in defense if the shooter came through the door.  He did exactly what I would hope someone in that situation would - (1) not go running across campus to engage the shooter, (2) let those around him know he was armed, and (3) stay on lock down in a defensive mode.  Texas has had concealed carry for years and recently adopted open carry and campus carry - all of which requires training and a CHL.  Now that guns are allowed on campus, I hope there is training on how to properly act in such a situation.  University of Texas Chancellor William McRaven, former 4 Star Admiral and commander of the Navy Seals, sent a letter to the Texas Legislature when the campus carry bill was being considered.  In the letter, McRaven noted that campus will be "less safe" with the presence of guns - noting his belief that accidental discharge and self-inflicted injuries would likely rise.  He's probably right.  Once the bill became law, McRaven's focus shifted to making the campus as safe as possible with guns present.

 

      

I agree that the student did do the right thing. That's primary function of CHL- defense. Had he gone after the shooter, that's going on offense. Going on offense is an entirely different issue and requires more training. Extensive and exhaustive training in order to be an asset and not liability.

The stupidity of this woman is not helping the CHL cause. link

I wonder what the whoe story is on that since the story is "not sure if charges against the woman will be filed".  On face value, I thik she should be because she looks like she may be a lunatic.  On the other hand....if the vehicle was trying to run someone over, and it's on video....then I don't know.  I wouldn't do it, but in some cases, and under some state laws, a private citizen may have a bigger right to shoot at someone than a Police Officer would.  The picture can get pretty cloudy.

You have to be careful with these kinds of stories........the media has an agenda in almost everything they produce these days.  I'm not defending her, like I already said.....but I'd like to see what else there is.

[/QUOTE

If you take the story at face value (and yeah, I totally agree with you that you can't do that), this is the type of ignorance that can really set back gun rights. If she had hit an innocent bystander, democrats would be doubling down on no gun zones and the dangers of concealed carry.

Who knows what really happened here, but I really can't think of a single scenario that would justify her actions. If the car is barreling down at me, I'm diving out of the way. If I saw the car speeding towards a group of old ladies, firing at it with a handgun in the heat of the moment is not going to improve the situation. Sounds like this woman is reckless, and the type of idiot that gives responsible gun owners a bad name.

2015-10-07 1:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Here's the problem I have with this comment....

"this is the type of ignorance that can really set back gun rights. If she had hit an innocent bystander, democrats would be doubling down on no gun zones and the dangers of concealed carry.................... the type of idiot that gives responsible gun owners a bad name."

 

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that the woman in the story just started firing wildly at a car that a shoplifter was escaping in.  I think all normal thinking people would agree that, under that circumstance, the woman is a complete idiot and a danger to anyone around her while she has a gun.  Let's take her gun away from her because she's too stupid to have one.

However, and this is where the left gets it wrong every single time......  that woman's actions have NO BEARING on me carrying a gun or me as a person.  Not one. It damn sure doesn't tarnhish my good name. They can try to claim that since that woman is an idiot  we should not let anyone carry a gun because we are all idiots......but you can't get that past me, because I know that sentiment is as stupid as that woman.

The ONLY problem with guns is that you can't let some people have access to them.  The best way to start down that path is to lock up people who use them in a crime.  We can work on the rest of the people who shouldn't have them once we get a handle on these really violent azzholes running around....and we should.  Then, we can lock that woman up as well....I really don't care.

But......leave me alone.  I don't bother anyone.......and no, you won't EVER get my guns.  (I'm speaking for the overwhelming majority of gun owners with that statement)  I stand with those folks.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-10-07 2:00 PM
2015-10-07 2:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Here's the problem I have with this comment....

"this is the type of ignorance that can really set back gun rights. If she had hit an innocent bystander, democrats would be doubling down on no gun zones and the dangers of concealed carry.................... the type of idiot that gives responsible gun owners a bad name."

 

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that the woman in the story just started firing wildly at a car that a shoplifter was escaping in.  I think all normal thinking people would agree that, under that circumstance, the woman is a complete idiot and a danger to anyone around her while she has a gun.  Let's take her gun away from her because she's too stupid to have one.

However, and this is where the left gets it wrong every single time......  that woman's actions have NO BEARING on me carrying a gun or me as a person.  Not one. It damn sure doesn't tarnhish my good name. They can try to claim that since that woman is an idiot  we should not let anyone carry a gun because we are all idiots......but you can't get that past me, because I know that sentiment is as stupid as that woman.

The ONLY problem with guns is that you can't let some people have access to them.  The best way to start down that path is to lock up people who use them in a crime.  We can work on the rest of the people who shouldn't have them once we get a handle on these really violent azzholes running around....and we should.  Then, we can lock that woman up as well....I really don't care.

But......leave me alone.  I don't bother anyone.......and no, you won't EVER get my guns.  (I'm speaking for the overwhelming majority of gun owners with that statement)  I stand with those folks.

Here's where you and I are not on the same page. You said "all normal thinking people"  would think the woman is a complete idiot that has no bearing on you or me responsibly owning guns. And with that I agree 100%. But I'm not talking about normal thinking people, I'm talking about politicians. Fear mongering, grandstanding, showboating politicians.  Being rational does not get a politician air time.

2015-10-07 2:36 PM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by Left Brain

Here's the problem I have with this comment....

"this is the type of ignorance that can really set back gun rights. If she had hit an innocent bystander, democrats would be doubling down on no gun zones and the dangers of concealed carry.................... the type of idiot that gives responsible gun owners a bad name."

 

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that the woman in the story just started firing wildly at a car that a shoplifter was escaping in.  I think all normal thinking people would agree that, under that circumstance, the woman is a complete idiot and a danger to anyone around her while she has a gun.  Let's take her gun away from her because she's too stupid to have one.

However, and this is where the left gets it wrong every single time......  that woman's actions have NO BEARING on me carrying a gun or me as a person.  Not one. It damn sure doesn't tarnhish my good name. They can try to claim that since that woman is an idiot  we should not let anyone carry a gun because we are all idiots......but you can't get that past me, because I know that sentiment is as stupid as that woman.

The ONLY problem with guns is that you can't let some people have access to them.  The best way to start down that path is to lock up people who use them in a crime.  We can work on the rest of the people who shouldn't have them once we get a handle on these really violent azzholes running around....and we should.  Then, we can lock that woman up as well....I really don't care.

But......leave me alone.  I don't bother anyone.......and no, you won't EVER get my guns.  (I'm speaking for the overwhelming majority of gun owners with that statement)  I stand with those folks.

Here's where you and I are not on the same page. You said "all normal thinking people"  would think the woman is a complete idiot that has no bearing on you or me responsibly owning guns. And with that I agree 100%. But I'm not talking about normal thinking people, I'm talking about politicians. Fear mongering, grandstanding, showboating politicians.  Being rational does not get a politician air time.

It doesn't matter, and it's why they will never win this.  You just can't take the property of a law abiding citizenin this country.  You can't lump me in with stupid gun owners anymore than I can lump rioters in with peaceful protestors. 

Keep in mind......take the personal safety issue out of this....many of us keep guns precisely so the govt. can't do what some people are proposing it does...take away my property and my rights and my freedom to own a gun and go about my life in a peaceful manner.  It's never going to happen, and I don't care what grandstanding moron politician thinks it is.

Once upon a time, 6,000,000 people were loaded onto rail cars and taken to their death,by a handful of people with guns, with barely a wimper.  That will never happen to me.  

Having the means to at least fight back to maintain my liberty is very dear to me.  It won't be taken by a showboating politician.



2015-10-07 4:07 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by Left Brain

Here's the problem I have with this comment....

"this is the type of ignorance that can really set back gun rights. If she had hit an innocent bystander, democrats would be doubling down on no gun zones and the dangers of concealed carry.................... the type of idiot that gives responsible gun owners a bad name."

 

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that the woman in the story just started firing wildly at a car that a shoplifter was escaping in.  I think all normal thinking people would agree that, under that circumstance, the woman is a complete idiot and a danger to anyone around her while she has a gun.  Let's take her gun away from her because she's too stupid to have one.

However, and this is where the left gets it wrong every single time......  that woman's actions have NO BEARING on me carrying a gun or me as a person.  Not one. It damn sure doesn't tarnhish my good name. They can try to claim that since that woman is an idiot  we should not let anyone carry a gun because we are all idiots......but you can't get that past me, because I know that sentiment is as stupid as that woman.

The ONLY problem with guns is that you can't let some people have access to them.  The best way to start down that path is to lock up people who use them in a crime.  We can work on the rest of the people who shouldn't have them once we get a handle on these really violent azzholes running around....and we should.  Then, we can lock that woman up as well....I really don't care.

But......leave me alone.  I don't bother anyone.......and no, you won't EVER get my guns.  (I'm speaking for the overwhelming majority of gun owners with that statement)  I stand with those folks.

Here's where you and I are not on the same page. You said "all normal thinking people"  would think the woman is a complete idiot that has no bearing on you or me responsibly owning guns. And with that I agree 100%. But I'm not talking about normal thinking people, I'm talking about politicians. Fear mongering, grandstanding, showboating politicians.  Being rational does not get a politician air time.

It doesn't matter, and it's why they will never win this.  You just can't take the property of a law abiding citizenin this country.  You can't lump me in with stupid gun owners anymore than I can lump rioters in with peaceful protestors. 

Keep in mind......take the personal safety issue out of this....many of us keep guns precisely so the govt. can't do what some people are proposing it does...take away my property and my rights and my freedom to own a gun and go about my life in a peaceful manner.  It's never going to happen, and I don't care what grandstanding moron politician thinks it is.

Once upon a time, 6,000,000 people were loaded onto rail cars and taken to their death,by a handful of people with guns, with barely a wimper.  That will never happen to me.  

Having the means to at least fight back to maintain my liberty is very dear to me.  It won't be taken by a showboating politician.




(Oh what the hell-- I'll chime in...)

I agree with you, more or less. I don't really have a problem with "law-abiding" citizens owning guns. I don't really even have a problem with "law abiding" citizens owning pretty much any kind of gun they want or any number of guns they want.

I'm not advocating the wholesale taking away of anyones' guns, either. For one thing, it's impossible, and for another, while I don't really agree with the premise that we need a heavily armed citizenry to protect us against the government hauling us away in rail cars, the 2A is, nevertheless, part of the constitution and, IMO, should remain so.

Most people in law enforcement would probably agree that it doesn't take much to deter a lot of crime. While I'm not in LE, I think most cops would say that a lot, if not most crime is a crime of passion or of opportunity, as opposed to something that is carefully planned out and thought through. It doesn't take a whole lot to prevent a lot of this kind of crime--a locked door, a low fence, keeping your valuables hidden, etc.

My feeling is that if you made it a little more difficult to get a gun, by more stringent background check or waiting period procedures for example, or by having, required training and re-certification in order to get a license, etc, that you could keep a lot of guns out of the hands of a lot people who aren't interested in owning and operating them responsibly. I think that most law abiding and responsible owners wouldn't have a problem with requirements to own a gun that really aren't any more stringent than those to own or drive a car.

I personally know a lot of people who own guns who have NO IDEA whatsoever how to use them. The chances of them injuring themselves or someone else accidentally are astronomically greater than any chance they would have of using it to prevent a crime. I'm sure it isn't safely stored, and even if they had it on them, I doubt they could hit the broad side of a barn with it, much less an attacker (assuming it's even loaded and they knew how to load it). The reason they have their guns is for no reason other than it was easy to get and they wanted one.

If we could keep guns out of the hands of lots of people like that, by building the procedural equivalent of a low fence, I think we could curtail a lot of accidents and injuries caused by people who, though they may technically be law abiding, are anything but responsible gun users. I think you could also keep a lot of guns out of the hands of irresponsible nitwits who would be prone to shooting someone over a petty argument on the street. I think an irresponsible nitwit would be unlikely to have the wherewithal to go through a more stringent licensing process, mandatory training, etc. Yes, there would be people who got their guns illegally, but that's a separate problem. As other people have said, there are people who choose to drive without a license, but we don't abolish the licensing process.
2015-10-07 6:05 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??
Originally posted by Left Brain

Here's the problem I have with this comment....

"this is the type of ignorance that can really set back gun rights. If she had hit an innocent bystander, democrats would be doubling down on no gun zones and the dangers of concealed carry.................... the type of idiot that gives responsible gun owners a bad name."

 

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that the woman in the story just started firing wildly at a car that a shoplifter was escaping in.  I think all normal thinking people would agree that, under that circumstance, the woman is a complete idiot and a danger to anyone around her while she has a gun.  Let's take her gun away from her because she's too stupid to have one.

However, and this is where the left gets it wrong every single time......  that woman's actions have NO BEARING on me carrying a gun or me as a person.  Not one. It damn sure doesn't tarnhish my good name. They can try to claim that since that woman is an idiot  we should not let anyone carry a gun because we are all idiots......but you can't get that past me, because I know that sentiment is as stupid as that woman.

The ONLY problem with guns is that you can't let some people have access to them.  The best way to start down that path is to lock up people who use them in a crime.  We can work on the rest of the people who shouldn't have them once we get a handle on these really violent azzholes running around....and we should.  Then, we can lock that woman up as well....I really don't care.

But......leave me alone.  I don't bother anyone.......and no, you won't EVER get my guns.  (I'm speaking for the overwhelming majority of gun owners with that statement)  I stand with those folks.




How do you feel about required liability insurance on guns? People like you that own gun safes, have training etc- it should be pretty affordable. But that lady if the story is as crazy as it sounds will not be able to procure insurance. Once someone proves themselves irresponsible they probably will not get insurance again. Also, I would think full grown men living with mom trying to get insurance on > a gun or two might struggle. But there could be mitigating steps they could take. Law Enforcement and Military and ex should get a discount for all of the training they have.

That way when you collect guns from thieves they are off the street- wouldn't it slowly whittle down the guns in the wrong hands? 30 days to show proof of insurance or we melt down your gun into bikes for kids.

Responsible gun owners would comply and the rest could slowly lose their guns.

You can not purchase a gun without insurance and if you own a gun and pass it on you are responsible for it until someone else's insurance takes over or you report it stolen.

I don't know if this would work- but seeing a go fund me for that family who's kid got killed by the neighbor's kid for her funeral expenses is wrong. As it is for so many victims. Insurance is mandatory for cars- why not for guns? This would keep selection away from the government.

Insurance companies have huge actuarial departments that risk on a ton of factors.

If you don't have insurance and are found with a gun law enforcement will hold it for 30 days while you attempt to get insurance then it is gone.

Or what other ideas do you have?

I have one neighbor I feel safer for having a gun. The one on the other side- Oh God don't let him ever need it.
2015-10-07 6:14 PM
in reply to: Moonrocket

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Originally posted by Moonrocket
Originally posted by Left Brain

Here's the problem I have with this comment....

"this is the type of ignorance that can really set back gun rights. If she had hit an innocent bystander, democrats would be doubling down on no gun zones and the dangers of concealed carry.................... the type of idiot that gives responsible gun owners a bad name."

 

Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that the woman in the story just started firing wildly at a car that a shoplifter was escaping in.  I think all normal thinking people would agree that, under that circumstance, the woman is a complete idiot and a danger to anyone around her while she has a gun.  Let's take her gun away from her because she's too stupid to have one.

However, and this is where the left gets it wrong every single time......  that woman's actions have NO BEARING on me carrying a gun or me as a person.  Not one. It damn sure doesn't tarnhish my good name. They can try to claim that since that woman is an idiot  we should not let anyone carry a gun because we are all idiots......but you can't get that past me, because I know that sentiment is as stupid as that woman.

The ONLY problem with guns is that you can't let some people have access to them.  The best way to start down that path is to lock up people who use them in a crime.  We can work on the rest of the people who shouldn't have them once we get a handle on these really violent azzholes running around....and we should.  Then, we can lock that woman up as well....I really don't care.

But......leave me alone.  I don't bother anyone.......and no, you won't EVER get my guns.  (I'm speaking for the overwhelming majority of gun owners with that statement)  I stand with those folks.

How do you feel about required liability insurance on guns? People like you that own gun safes, have training etc- it should be pretty affordable. But that lady if the story is as crazy as it sounds will not be able to procure insurance. Once someone proves themselves irresponsible they probably will not get insurance again. Also, I would think full grown men living with mom trying to get insurance on > a gun or two might struggle. But there could be mitigating steps they could take. Law Enforcement and Military and ex should get a discount for all of the training they have. That way when you collect guns from thieves they are off the street- wouldn't it slowly whittle down the guns in the wrong hands? 30 days to show proof of insurance or we melt down your gun into bikes for kids. Responsible gun owners would comply and the rest could slowly lose their guns. You can not purchase a gun without insurance and if you own a gun and pass it on you are responsible for it until someone else's insurance takes over or you report it stolen. I don't know if this would work- but seeing a go fund me for that family who's kid got killed by the neighbor's kid for her funeral expenses is wrong. As it is for so many victims. Insurance is mandatory for cars- why not for guns? This would keep selection away from the government. Insurance companies have huge actuarial departments that risk on a ton of factors. If you don't have insurance and are found with a gun law enforcement will hold it for 30 days while you attempt to get insurance then it is gone. Or what other ideas do you have? I have one neighbor I feel safer for having a gun. The one on the other side- Oh God don't let him ever need it.

That's fine.  It won't do anything to stop the current carnage, but I don't really care if I have to have insurance.

I wrote this earlier......this is my idea:

Free up prison space and lock up people who use guns in crimes....that's step one. Legalize drugs and stop the "turf wars"....it worked when we got rid of prohibition...that's step two. Identify and institutionalize people who have serious mental health problems...that's step three.  It would take a few years, but if you get those people off the street your gun crimes will drop dramatically. 

All of my ideas have to do with taking guns away from violent and crazy people......because, you know, they're the problem.

It gets lost in my copy and paste from an earlier post, but you free up prison space by releasing non-violent offenders.  We can find other ways to punish them.  Prison should be for people who need to ne removed from society because they are a danger to the rest of us.

2015-10-07 6:51 PM
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Here's a gun story, and it pretty much sums up my feeling about them.

About 5 years ago I was asked to talk to a fellow in the lobby of our station.  When I met him he told me that he had a gun he wanted to turn in.  He said it had belonged to his dad, who had recently passed away, and that he had no use for it.  He handed me a paper bag.  I opened the bag and ....woah.....it was an old Colt .45 M1911A1.    I took it out of the bag and it was in surprising condition.  The bluing was just about worn away, but the wood grips were good, and the action was smooth. I said, "where did he get it?"  He told me that his Grandpa had been a St. Louis City Police Officer and that he had given it to his dad when his dad went off to fight in WWII.  "Uh.......come on back here to my office", I said.

I sat down at my desk and was working on the serial number while we talked some more about the pistol.  He told me his dad had been an Island Hopper in the Marine Corps in WWII.  He told me that he didn't know all the places his dad had been, but he knew he'd been on Guadacanal and Tinian.  I'm a former Marine....I knew this was probably right since I know my WWII history a bit and  the 2nd Marine Division fought on both islands.

By now I had figured out from the serial number that the gun was probably manufactured around 1920.  "Tell me about your Grandpa", I asked.  He told me that his Grandpa had been a detective for years, but he didn't know much about him.  He told me his name.  I later found out he had been a typical son of Irish immigrants.....many had become cops.  I have no idea how his Grandpa came across that gun, but I have imagined many scenarios over the years......part of serial number is almost gone.....like someone had tried to file it off.

He told me his dad had been wounded on Tinian, and sent home soon after.  He had been shot in both legs, but came home and raised a family of 4 kids.  His wounds had not been a factor in his life.  My own Grandpa fought with the 2nd Marines on Tarawa.  My imagination churned again. It still does whenever I look at it.

"So", I asked, "what do you want me to do with this?".  He said, "whatever you do with guns is fine, we don't want it".  I told him that we sent them off to be melted down, but, "look, I can't do that with this gun, no way......it's a piece of history.....can I buy it from you?"  He offered to give it to me, which I couldn't accept.  I did some work on the computer and we settled on a fair price.  He left my office that day without another thought of that gun.

I had a shadow box built for it and it's on the wall in my den.  Of all the guns I own, I consider it my most prized possession.  A father, the son of an Irish immigrant, gave his son that gun to help keep him safe and bring him home when he went off to war, probably 20 years before I was born. The same war my Grandfather fought in. It's priceless to me. It represents family, and love, and freedom.  I know it's sometimes corny today, but I was raised with those values, and they are important to me.  I am here because the man who carried that gun in war fought for my way of life.  We are all here in this country because men took up arms and fought for it's freedom.  A gun is a tool of freedom in the right hands.  That .45 certainly was. It's undeniable in our history. The founders knew that.

We need to get guns out of the hands of people who commit crimes with them......and that's really the end of the argument. I suppose we can take them away from people who are stupid with them as well .  The rest of us know what they are for, and you can't get them from us......forget about the idea. 

 



Edited by Left Brain 2015-10-07 6:57 PM
2015-10-07 8:06 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??
I'm not sure I could write better legislation than "if you commit a crime with a gun, or are stupid with a gun, we will take your guns away." Sounds good to me.

I've got no beef with hunters or collectors or "enthusiasts" or people who think society's collapse is imminent and they need to be heavily-armed. Just respect the fact that a gun is a deadly weapon, get trained to use it effectively, lock it up so that only you or other trained people can get to it, and dispose of it responsibly if you decide you don't want it any more. I can't see why any serious gun owner would have a problem with that.


2015-10-07 8:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Just respect the fact that a gun is a deadly weapon, get trained to use it effectively, lock it up so that only you or other trained people can get to it, and dispose of it responsibly if you decide you don't want it any more. I can't see why any serious gun owner would have a problem with that.

I don't have a single problem with that.  In fact, if someone can't do the things you listed then they fall into the "stupid" category and I don't care if we take their guns because they can't be trusted with them.  The ONLY problem I see is that we will need to do more than just take guns away from people who commit crimes with them.....we have to get rid of those people too, because they just keep getting more guns and committing more crimes.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-10-07 8:16 PM
2015-10-08 7:14 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I'm not sure I could write better legislation than "if you commit a crime with a gun, or are stupid with a gun, we will take your guns away." Sounds good to me. I've got no beef with hunters or collectors or "enthusiasts" or people who think society's collapse is imminent and they need to be heavily-armed. Just respect the fact that a gun is a deadly weapon, get trained to use it effectively, lock it up so that only you or other trained people can get to it, and dispose of it responsibly if you decide you don't want it any more. I can't see why any serious gun owner would have a problem with that.

did somebody hack JMK's account?  Who is this guy?  haha, just kidding.

I agree completely.  One of my pet peeves is people who don't secure their firearms properly.  I either have the one I carry on my person, or it goes in the safe when I go to bed.  I don't want to have a loaded firearm on the night stand when I'm waking up in a fog from a whacked out dream.  I figure me being conscious enough to hit a 4 digit code on a gun safe on my nightstand is a good test to make sure my brain is in a state to make life or death decisions.  lol

All my other weapons and ammunition are stored in separate safes as well.  They're even bolted to the floor/wall, so it would be very difficult for a bad guy to even steal the safes. 

2015-10-08 1:20 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I'm not sure I could write better legislation than "if you commit a crime with a gun, or are stupid with a gun, we will take your guns away." Sounds good to me. I've got no beef with hunters or collectors or "enthusiasts" or people who think society's collapse is imminent and they need to be heavily-armed. Just respect the fact that a gun is a deadly weapon, get trained to use it effectively, lock it up so that only you or other trained people can get to it, and dispose of it responsibly if you decide you don't want it any more. I can't see why any serious gun owner would have a problem with that.

did somebody hack JMK's account?  Who is this guy?  haha, just kidding.

I agree completely.  One of my pet peeves is people who don't secure their firearms properly.  I either have the one I carry on my person, or it goes in the safe when I go to bed.  I don't want to have a loaded firearm on the night stand when I'm waking up in a fog from a whacked out dream.  I figure me being conscious enough to hit a 4 digit code on a gun safe on my nightstand is a good test to make sure my brain is in a state to make life or death decisions.  lol

All my other weapons and ammunition are stored in separate safes as well.  They're even bolted to the floor/wall, so it would be very difficult for a bad guy to even steal the safes. 




I know you're kidding, but this has really been my position for a long time. I'm not anti-gun or opposed to people having guns for any legal reason at all. I think where I differ from a lot of people on the pro-gun side is that I'm in favor of making it a little more difficult for law-abiding people to get guns if doing so makes it a lot more difficult for people who shouldn't have guns to get them. I have to admit, I'm always both confused and disappointed by the position that some people take who are, it seems, willing to accept a certain number of innocent casualties every year as the price of freedom of the right to bear arms when I think there are things we can do that don't involve a wholesale disarming of law-abiding people, and don't apply any more restriction to the ownership of guns than people already willingly accept for cars. And yes, I get that owning cars isn't protected by the Constitution the way guns are, so they're not apples and oranges. But still...

When we discussed this a while back, another poster on BT said that he would not be in favor of (hypothetically) removing one family member's legally-owned guns from their home, even if it was conclusively determined that another family member was mentally ill and violent, ion order to prevent the mentally-ill person's having access to them. I don't get that, and I'm not sure I ever will.
2015-10-08 1:32 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I'm not sure I could write better legislation than "if you commit a crime with a gun, or are stupid with a gun, we will take your guns away." Sounds good to me. I've got no beef with hunters or collectors or "enthusiasts" or people who think society's collapse is imminent and they need to be heavily-armed. Just respect the fact that a gun is a deadly weapon, get trained to use it effectively, lock it up so that only you or other trained people can get to it, and dispose of it responsibly if you decide you don't want it any more. I can't see why any serious gun owner would have a problem with that.

did somebody hack JMK's account?  Who is this guy?  haha, just kidding.

I agree completely.  One of my pet peeves is people who don't secure their firearms properly.  I either have the one I carry on my person, or it goes in the safe when I go to bed.  I don't want to have a loaded firearm on the night stand when I'm waking up in a fog from a whacked out dream.  I figure me being conscious enough to hit a 4 digit code on a gun safe on my nightstand is a good test to make sure my brain is in a state to make life or death decisions.  lol

All my other weapons and ammunition are stored in separate safes as well.  They're even bolted to the floor/wall, so it would be very difficult for a bad guy to even steal the safes. 

I know you're kidding, but this has really been my position for a long time. I'm not anti-gun or opposed to people having guns for any legal reason at all. I think where I differ from a lot of people on the pro-gun side is that I'm in favor of making it a little more difficult for law-abiding people to get guns if doing so makes it a lot more difficult for people who shouldn't have guns to get them. I have to admit, I'm always both confused and disappointed by the position that some people take who are, it seems, willing to accept a certain number of innocent casualties every year as the price of freedom of the right to bear arms when I think there are things we can do that don't involve a wholesale disarming of law-abiding people, and don't apply any more restriction to the ownership of guns than people already willingly accept for cars. And yes, I get that owning cars isn't protected by the Constitution the way guns are, so they're not apples and oranges. But still... When we discussed this a while back, another poster on BT said that he would not be in favor of (hypothetically) removing one family member's legally-owned guns from their home, even if it was conclusively determined that another family member was mentally ill and violent, ion order to prevent the mentally-ill person's having access to them. I don't get that, and I'm not sure I ever will.

Yeah, I know you've been consistent on this one.  I was mostly making light of you being fairly liberal on most topics, but not this one.  

It is tricky on the last part about a family with somebody who is mentally ill.  I don't necessarily subscribe to removing all firearms, but there definitely needs to be something in place to secure them so they never have access to them.

Little bit different scenario, but similar in a way.  I have a friend who has a drug felony from when he was 18 years old (he's 45 now).  His wife owns a handgun and they keep it in their bedroom.  It's locked in a safe and she's the only one who knows the passcode.  He is a felon, but has no access to the gun so it's legal.  I could see a similar thing with somebody mentally ill in the household where an individual can still legally own a firearm, but they have to ensure that the other person never has access to it.

A bigger problem though, is many parents are so disconnected from there kids that even when they are mentally unstable the parents are too close to see it.  I think Adam Lanza is an example of that.  Her kid was whacked, but she still let him have access to firearms and paid the ultimate price.  /facepalm
My kids are totally normal and healthy (as far as I know) but I still don't let them have access to any of my guns.  My oldest turns 21 here in a few weeks and I was just talking to my wife that I should probably give him the safe combo's in the event we both get hit by a bus at some point.  lol

2015-10-08 2:05 PM
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If you are mentally ill and violent and over 18 you can't live at my house.  It's a rule.  The guns are staying, but you're not.



2015-10-08 2:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by Left Brain

If you are mentally ill and violent and over 18 you can't live at my house.  It's a rule.  The guns are staying, but you're not.

Well crap, now I have to find somewhere else to stay when i visit St. Louis  

 

2015-10-08 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

If you are mentally ill and violent and over 18 you can't live at my house.  It's a rule.  The guns are staying, but you're not.

Well crap, now I have to find somewhere else to stay when i visit St. Louis  

 

that leaves two of us, share a hotel room?  your side can have guns and steak, my side can have carrots and an electric car?

2015-10-08 3:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

If you are mentally ill and violent and over 18 you can't live at my house.  It's a rule.  The guns are staying, but you're not.

Well crap, now I have to find somewhere else to stay when i visit St. Louis  

 

that leaves two of us, share a hotel room?  your side can have guns and steak, my side can have carrots and an electric car?

deal, but I want an electric car too.  :-P

2015-10-08 5:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

If you are mentally ill and violent and over 18 you can't live at my house.  It's a rule.  The guns are staying, but you're not.

Well crap, now I have to find somewhere else to stay when i visit St. Louis  

 

that leaves two of us, share a hotel room?  your side can have guns and steak, my side can have carrots and an electric car?

deal, but I want an electric car too.  :-P




I want carrots and a gun. I'm what you call a Moderate.
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The doctor says not to run again. Ever. Needless to say, I’m not taking this very well. Can I recover from this? Where should I go from here?