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2015-10-07 2:26 AM


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Subject: Bike fit
I've never had a proper bike fit, so was looking to get this done. I'm reasonably comfortable on my bike, no real issues, but not sure if my positioning is correct. There are two tri shops in my area, the first is a small company, bike fit is cheap $150 and takes an hour. I think he just sticks you on a wind trainer and uses a measuring tape. The second is almost twice the cost, takes 3 hours and he uses all manner of technology during the fit. Do I really need that though? I'm not looking to go pro or anything..

Edited by zedzded 2015-10-07 2:28 AM


2015-10-07 6:50 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Bike fit

Assuming both are reputable and experienced fitters I'd 100% recommend the longer and more expensive fit.  A fit like that is half fitting and half clinical.  The first half will seem like you're getting a physical at the doctor's office.  They will measure all your relevant bone lengths and all that.  Only after they have all your physical measurements will they start to tinker with the actual bike fit.  You just cannot get a comprehensive fit in one hour.

2015-10-07 8:33 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Originally posted by zedzded

I've never had a proper bike fit, so was looking to get this done. I'm reasonably comfortable on my bike, no real issues, but not sure if my positioning is correct. There are two tri shops in my area, the first is a small company, bike fit is cheap $150 and takes an hour. I think he just sticks you on a wind trainer and uses a measuring tape. The second is almost twice the cost, takes 3 hours and he uses all manner of technology during the fit. Do I really need that though? I'm not looking to go pro or anything..
Are you still in Western Australia (Perth)?

If you are I have had a (road) bike fitting done at a couple of places (two different bikes). My original one cost about $150 and took about an hour. It was done at the tri shop "South of the river" it was fairly reasonable. But I never felt fully comfortable on my bike. My fault as the bike was really too small for me to start with.

Recently I got a new bike from a bike store, once again south of the river. I paid $195 for a full fit at that store. It look about 2 hours, and cost me about $800 when I was done because it included a seat and new bars and a couple of other things, which I expected. All I will say is that the seat fit portion alone of that bike fit was well worth the money because I was instantly comfortable on the seat that the guy fitted.

I am not likely to ever step onto a podium at a tri, but to me the money I spent on that second fit has been so worthwhile because I can now ride in comfort for a couple of hours straight, which was never possible before.

I'm happy to share the names of the places that I have had fits done if you want to PM me.
2015-10-07 9:57 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
I agree with what the others have said.

I've had a couple fits that were "reasonable" and got me into an ok position but never truly comfortable on the bike.

After a few 100 miles rides where I was in pain during and after from my butt and feet, I finally went into a shop that was recommended by a couple coaches I know. They instantly could see the problems with my set up (my bike being a tad too small for me as well) but within a few minutes had me in a different position that I was instantly more comfortable. I wasn't in for very long at first, but have 2 follow up appts that are covered with the initial fee, so for me, that is worth it. I'm able to ride in the new position, then go back in and they can make and small changes if things are still not completely ok.

Ask around and get recommendations/experiences from anyone that has gone to both. The money is definitely worth it if you can ride comfortably. ALSO, if you optimize your position, you increase muscle recruitment, decrease stress which equals more POWER and you go faster!!!
2015-10-07 12:54 PM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Putting your bike on a trainer and moving things around is not a bike fit at all. The bariers to entry into the bike fit business are pretty minimal (the reason for a lot of bad fits), but the first THING a fitter needs to have is a fit bike, not a wind trainer. Skill is more importantthan tools and skilled bike fitters can probably get you into good shape using only your bike and a trainer, but they would also ackowledge the major drawbacks of this approach.

So if you want a real bike fit, you appear to have one option.
2015-10-07 1:16 PM
in reply to: Finding Freestyle

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Subject: RE: Bike fit

To the OP - of the two fits you mentioned I would go with the one that had the best fitter.  That may be hard for you to tell.....but you can get a great fit from the first one you mentioned, and you can get a great fit from the second one........and you can also get a dog from either of them.  I would ask each of them for references.

 



2015-10-07 3:30 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Originally posted by Left Brain

To the OP - of the two fits you mentioned I would go with the one that had the best fitter.  That may be hard for you to tell.....but you can get a great fit from the first one you mentioned, and you can get a great fit from the second one........and you can also get a dog from either of them.  I would ask each of them for references.

 




I tend to agree with this. The MOST important thing in getting a good fit is having a skilled fitter.
2015-10-07 10:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Let me explain the difference from being "set up" and being "fit".

Being SET UP involves your bike and a trainer and hopefully some individual that has some idea of what a person should look like on that type of bike. As I have been a professional fitter for about a decade, I qualify, as I do have a trainer. So the rider rides the bike, the person doing the positioning looks at various relationships and angles, maybe ask how the rider feels. Then the rider stops, gets off the bike, the "fitter" makes a change, the rider gets back on and they collectively try to evaluate if the change was good or bad. Getting the rider off the bike and making that change is part of the problem. The longer the time between trials, the less effective feedback the rider can give. And some of those pauses can be pretty long. And that rider feedback is a primary driver of the fit. It's important. Seat height can be changed fairly quickly, but stuff like reach to the bars, drop to the bars, width, saddle angle, and others take long enough that the rider loses some sense of "how things were". The 2nd drawback to this method is the adjustment range of the bike might not acommodate what the rider wants. Hopefuly the seat height can be set correctly, but a lot of riders have come to me with bikes where the up and down or fore and aft of the bars simply dont go to the place the rider prefers. Setting them up on their bike, you never actually find this out. You might suspect it, but that's not much help.

So we've got these several drawbacks to the SET UP
1. Time between trials
2. Adjustment range of bike.
3. Crank lengths can't be tested, and this is a large part of modern bike fitting. You are going to want to know sooner or later, even if you cant tell your crank from your brakes at the moment.

Because of these issues, when setting someone up using their bike and a trainer, you are unable to get to their bike fit DNA. That is a set of fit coordinates that describe how the riders body prefers to operate as points in space, on any bike of that variety. Bike fit DNA is the thing you get a bike fit for. That's it. The endpoint. Any session that doesn't provide this is not a bike fit session.

In my opinion, setting up should NEVER cost more than $100, as the information is extremely limited in usefullness.

On the other hand we have proper BIKE FITTING, which takes place on a fit bike. Old school fit bikes adjust to essentially any position you want, eliminating drawback #2, but generally the rider still has to get off the bike for the fitter to make changes. These changes are faster, but there is still some unwanted "time between trials". A good fitter can perform a good fit on these types of bikes, and many still do today. But we still have drawback #1 to consider. Time between trials.

Enter the modern dynamic fit bike. These are bikes where the 4 primary fit coordinates are changeable as the rider rides under load. Your Retuls, GURU DFU's and a couple others fit this bill. The seat and bars go up and down or back and forth AS the rider rides. The fitter takes the rider through the fitting process and the rider is able to provide immensely more useful feedback when the changes are made AS the riding takes place. Particularly for setting subtle things like saddle setback and drop to the bars, where minor changes in power can be more easily intuited by the rider when the adjustments are dynamic.

#3 is becomming more and more common, as proper crank length is becomming more and more recognized as a crucial part of bike fit, ESPECIALLY the triathlon bike, where we essentially want to position the rider as low as comfort and the ability to pedal allow. We are looking for a NEXUS of POWER and proper crank length often helps us find it.

Once the fit is complete, the fitter gets a gold star for the ability to provide COMPLETE BIKE SOLUTIONS. Whether the rider owns a bike or not, knowing both exactly how to set up their current bike and exactly what bikes to consider for future purchases is the gold standardof bike fitting. Not just "Specialized Shiv size medium", a complete bike solution is "54 cm Trek Madone with the H2 headtube and 30mm of spacers under a 100cm 17 degree stem."

Bike fits of this caliber are going to be in the 200 - 300+ range, but done properly, that information will serve you for a good long time, barring any significant body changes. About the only reason you should need another fit in the same decade is if you lose or gain substantial weight. BIke fit DNA is real.

I know a ot of beginer triathletes would be well served with the simpler and cheaper "setting up" described at the top, and this is a perfectly fine service for a shop or coach to offer. It is not a bike fit, as collectively described by industry leaders in bike fitting from the GURU, Retul, FIST and Serotta schools of bike fitting. So pretty much everyone.

Generally, broadly and certainly not always, the person with the fit bike is going to possess a better understanding of the difference between these two services. And hopefully not refer to setting someone up on the bike as fitting them. This is a real issue for professional bike fitters, as so many shops have a mechanic who has been there for awhile, can recognize a good position and generaly replicate it with a bike on a trainer. They call that a fit, the consumer thinks they got a fit, and they pay bike fit money for it. So yeah it makles me kinda mad and I am on a mission to help newer riders understand what bike fitting really is. If you read this far, thanks for indulging my soapbox session.

Edited by Finding Freestyle 2015-10-07 10:42 PM
2015-10-08 8:14 AM
in reply to: Finding Freestyle

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Subject: RE: Bike fit

Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Let me explain the difference from being "set up" and being "fit". Being SET UP involves your bike and a trainer and hopefully some individual that has some idea of what a person should look like on that type of bike. As I have been a professional fitter for about a decade, I qualify, as I do have a trainer. So the rider rides the bike, the person doing the positioning looks at various relationships and angles, maybe ask how the rider feels. Then the rider stops, gets off the bike, the "fitter" makes a change, the rider gets back on and they collectively try to evaluate if the change was good or bad. Getting the rider off the bike and making that change is part of the problem. The longer the time between trials, the less effective feedback the rider can give. And some of those pauses can be pretty long. And that rider feedback is a primary driver of the fit. It's important. Seat height can be changed fairly quickly, but stuff like reach to the bars, drop to the bars, width, saddle angle, and others take long enough that the rider loses some sense of "how things were". The 2nd drawback to this method is the adjustment range of the bike might not acommodate what the rider wants. Hopefuly the seat height can be set correctly, but a lot of riders have come to me with bikes where the up and down or fore and aft of the bars simply dont go to the place the rider prefers. Setting them up on their bike, you never actually find this out. You might suspect it, but that's not much help. So we've got these several drawbacks to the SET UP 1. Time between trials 2. Adjustment range of bike. 3. Crank lengths can't be tested, and this is a large part of modern bike fitting. You are going to want to know sooner or later, even if you cant tell your crank from your brakes at the moment. Because of these issues, when setting someone up using their bike and a trainer, you are unable to get to their bike fit DNA. That is a set of fit coordinates that describe how the riders body prefers to operate as points in space, on any bike of that variety. Bike fit DNA is the thing you get a bike fit for. That's it. The endpoint. Any session that doesn't provide this is not a bike fit session. In my opinion, setting up should NEVER cost more than $100, as the information is extremely limited in usefullness. On the other hand we have proper BIKE FITTING, which takes place on a fit bike. Old school fit bikes adjust to essentially any position you want, eliminating drawback #2, but generally the rider still has to get off the bike for the fitter to make changes. These changes are faster, but there is still some unwanted "time between trials". A good fitter can perform a good fit on these types of bikes, and many still do today. But we still have drawback #1 to consider. Time between trials. Enter the modern dynamic fit bike. These are bikes where the 4 primary fit coordinates are changeable as the rider rides under load. Your Retuls, GURU DFU's and a couple others fit this bill. The seat and bars go up and down or back and forth AS the rider rides. The fitter takes the rider through the fitting process and the rider is able to provide immensely more useful feedback when the changes are made AS the riding takes place. Particularly for setting subtle things like saddle setback and drop to the bars, where minor changes in power can be more easily intuited by the rider when the adjustments are dynamic. #3 is becomming more and more common, as proper crank length is becomming more and more recognized as a crucial part of bike fit, ESPECIALLY the triathlon bike, where we essentially want to position the rider as low as comfort and the ability to pedal allow. We are looking for a NEXUS of POWER and proper crank length often helps us find it. Once the fit is complete, the fitter gets a gold star for the ability to provide COMPLETE BIKE SOLUTIONS. Whether the rider owns a bike or not, knowing both exactly how to set up their current bike and exactly what bikes to consider for future purchases is the gold standardof bike fitting. Not just "Specialized Shiv size medium", a complete bike solution is "54 cm Trek Madone with the H2 headtube and 30mm of spacers under a 100cm 17 degree stem." Bike fits of this caliber are going to be in the 200 - 300+ range, but done properly, that information will serve you for a good long time, barring any significant body changes. About the only reason you should need another fit in the same decade is if you lose or gain substantial weight. BIke fit DNA is real. I know a ot of beginer triathletes would be well served with the simpler and cheaper "setting up" described at the top, and this is a perfectly fine service for a shop or coach to offer. It is not a bike fit, as collectively described by industry leaders in bike fitting from the GURU, Retul, FIST and Serotta schools of bike fitting. So pretty much everyone. Generally, broadly and certainly not always, the person with the fit bike is going to possess a better understanding of the difference between these two services. And hopefully not refer to setting someone up on the bike as fitting them. This is a real issue for professional bike fitters, as so many shops have a mechanic who has been there for awhile, can recognize a good position and generaly replicate it with a bike on a trainer. They call that a fit, the consumer thinks they got a fit, and they pay bike fit money for it. So yeah it makles me kinda mad and I am on a mission to help newer riders understand what bike fitting really is. If you read this far, thanks for indulging my soapbox session.

Nice summary, Dave.

An additional perspective is that, IMO, beginner triathletes with zero biking experience can't get the full benefit of a full blown, multi-hour dynamic fit, primarily because they don't have the experience to really tell whether "position A" or "position B" is better.  For the pure beginner, the fitter I use does a quick set up (still 1-1.5 hours), then they ride for several weeks to a few months.  Once they have more time in the saddle, I recommend they go back to the fitter for a full fitting on the Guru.

I think too many people want the best permanent fit NOW, instead of approaching it as a process that takes time.

 

2015-10-08 8:55 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Bike fit

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Let me explain the difference from being "set up" and being "fit". Being SET UP involves your bike and a trainer and hopefully some individual that has some idea of what a person should look like on that type of bike. As I have been a professional fitter for about a decade, I qualify, as I do have a trainer. So the rider rides the bike, the person doing the positioning looks at various relationships and angles, maybe ask how the rider feels. Then the rider stops, gets off the bike, the "fitter" makes a change, the rider gets back on and they collectively try to evaluate if the change was good or bad. Getting the rider off the bike and making that change is part of the problem. The longer the time between trials, the less effective feedback the rider can give. And some of those pauses can be pretty long. And that rider feedback is a primary driver of the fit. It's important. Seat height can be changed fairly quickly, but stuff like reach to the bars, drop to the bars, width, saddle angle, and others take long enough that the rider loses some sense of "how things were". The 2nd drawback to this method is the adjustment range of the bike might not acommodate what the rider wants. Hopefuly the seat height can be set correctly, but a lot of riders have come to me with bikes where the up and down or fore and aft of the bars simply dont go to the place the rider prefers. Setting them up on their bike, you never actually find this out. You might suspect it, but that's not much help. So we've got these several drawbacks to the SET UP 1. Time between trials 2. Adjustment range of bike. 3. Crank lengths can't be tested, and this is a large part of modern bike fitting. You are going to want to know sooner or later, even if you cant tell your crank from your brakes at the moment. Because of these issues, when setting someone up using their bike and a trainer, you are unable to get to their bike fit DNA. That is a set of fit coordinates that describe how the riders body prefers to operate as points in space, on any bike of that variety. Bike fit DNA is the thing you get a bike fit for. That's it. The endpoint. Any session that doesn't provide this is not a bike fit session. In my opinion, setting up should NEVER cost more than $100, as the information is extremely limited in usefullness. On the other hand we have proper BIKE FITTING, which takes place on a fit bike. Old school fit bikes adjust to essentially any position you want, eliminating drawback #2, but generally the rider still has to get off the bike for the fitter to make changes. These changes are faster, but there is still some unwanted "time between trials". A good fitter can perform a good fit on these types of bikes, and many still do today. But we still have drawback #1 to consider. Time between trials. Enter the modern dynamic fit bike. These are bikes where the 4 primary fit coordinates are changeable as the rider rides under load. Your Retuls, GURU DFU's and a couple others fit this bill. The seat and bars go up and down or back and forth AS the rider rides. The fitter takes the rider through the fitting process and the rider is able to provide immensely more useful feedback when the changes are made AS the riding takes place. Particularly for setting subtle things like saddle setback and drop to the bars, where minor changes in power can be more easily intuited by the rider when the adjustments are dynamic. #3 is becomming more and more common, as proper crank length is becomming more and more recognized as a crucial part of bike fit, ESPECIALLY the triathlon bike, where we essentially want to position the rider as low as comfort and the ability to pedal allow. We are looking for a NEXUS of POWER and proper crank length often helps us find it. Once the fit is complete, the fitter gets a gold star for the ability to provide COMPLETE BIKE SOLUTIONS. Whether the rider owns a bike or not, knowing both exactly how to set up their current bike and exactly what bikes to consider for future purchases is the gold standardof bike fitting. Not just "Specialized Shiv size medium", a complete bike solution is "54 cm Trek Madone with the H2 headtube and 30mm of spacers under a 100cm 17 degree stem." Bike fits of this caliber are going to be in the 200 - 300+ range, but done properly, that information will serve you for a good long time, barring any significant body changes. About the only reason you should need another fit in the same decade is if you lose or gain substantial weight. BIke fit DNA is real. I know a ot of beginer triathletes would be well served with the simpler and cheaper "setting up" described at the top, and this is a perfectly fine service for a shop or coach to offer. It is not a bike fit, as collectively described by industry leaders in bike fitting from the GURU, Retul, FIST and Serotta schools of bike fitting. So pretty much everyone. Generally, broadly and certainly not always, the person with the fit bike is going to possess a better understanding of the difference between these two services. And hopefully not refer to setting someone up on the bike as fitting them. This is a real issue for professional bike fitters, as so many shops have a mechanic who has been there for awhile, can recognize a good position and generaly replicate it with a bike on a trainer. They call that a fit, the consumer thinks they got a fit, and they pay bike fit money for it. So yeah it makles me kinda mad and I am on a mission to help newer riders understand what bike fitting really is. If you read this far, thanks for indulging my soapbox session.

Nice summary, Dave.

An additional perspective is that, IMO, beginner triathletes with zero biking experience can't get the full benefit of a full blown, multi-hour dynamic fit, primarily because they don't have the experience to really tell whether "position A" or "position B" is better.  For the pure beginner, the fitter I use does a quick set up (still 1-1.5 hours), then they ride for several weeks to a few months.  Once they have more time in the saddle, I recommend they go back to the fitter for a full fitting on the Guru.

I think too many people want the best permanent fit NOW, instead of approaching it as a process that takes time.

 

Rigt on the money.

2015-10-08 11:41 AM
in reply to: Finding Freestyle

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Originally posted by Finding Freestyle

Let me explain the difference from being "set up" and being "fit".



Ok, So I'm in a similar situation, and my LBS offers what they call a "2D Fit" for about $100 and a Retul fit (no price listed, but assuming its around $300). According to your description, I would guess their 2D service is really a "set-up" as it is what they give you for free when you buy a new bike from them.

Right now I've never had a fit or a set-up, I've been fine tuning my position myself over the last few seasons and feel comfortable on the bike. I really feel like I only need a bit of help on the cleat angle... would the 2D version be worth it for that? or should I just save up and get the Retul fit?

They've got a video of one of their fit demonstration for our local bike club here https://youtu.be/6KAVhE8fYfE


2015-10-08 5:54 PM
in reply to: triathlonpal07

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Ok, I 'll try to keep this shorter, but that video is good example of another mistake A LOT of bike shops made and continue to make, especially when the Retul Vantage 3D measuring system first came out. That is a $10,000 - $12, 000 piece of hardware/software that essentially does the same job a $75 goniometer can do in capable hands. That is, precisely measure body angles. Measuring body angles is a good way to confirm the decisions that the rider and fitter come up during the fit, but it doesn't takethe place of a fit bike and it doesnt solve either of the drawbacks of fitting someone on a trainer, as detailed above. 1. Rangeof adjustment 2. Speed of adjustment or "time between trials"

The first thing we look for to confirm fit coordinates is rider feedback. We want to know that you like it. Next comes our eyeballs. The more fits you do, the more you start to recognize what proper angles look like. After 1000 or so fits, Ic an tell you your hip angle down to about 2 degrees by looking at you. The 3rd thing we do to confirm fit coordinates is measure body angles. The Retul Vantage is EXCELLENT at that job, allowing angles to be measured down to a tenth of a degree is sone instances. I can get to about 1 degree accuracy with a goniometer. For anyone that truly understands how bike fits works, finding a shop that uses the measuring system but not the fit bike is an immediate red flag.

Now, some shops have both and that is great, but if you are going to have one or other, the fit bike ALWAYS comes first. You can use that fancy measuring system on a trainer + bike SET UP session, but the ability to measure angles a little moreprecisely doesnt turn that SET UP into a BIKE FIT.

So honestly I dont really know what to tell you specifically regarding getting a good bike fit. Not to send you to another website, but slowtwitch has a great database of fitters who "get it". Also, I can do a pretty good job setting up riders via Skype. I've done a few dozen this way now, and it takes a little more time and maybe a few sessions to get things just right, but if you are going to pay to be SET UP, consider me a cyber-option.
2015-10-08 6:41 PM
in reply to: Finding Freestyle

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
so what you are saying is, ask them if they have a fit bike (haven't seen one in the shop) and then if not, look someplace else? I looked on Retul's website and they don't have any others in my area. Guru does though. Any input on the difference between the various systems like that?
2015-10-08 7:33 PM
in reply to: triathlonpal07

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Once you find a place that has an actual fit bike, preferably the modern dynamic variety, THEN you can figure out (word of mouth, online review) who actually uses it the best.

Keep in mind, there are many excellent fitters using older style non dynamic bikes. Serotta, Size-cycles etc. Not a real big difference in the tool, but you needt o actually have some version of the tool to do the job.
2015-10-09 7:03 AM
in reply to: triathlonpal07

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Subject: RE: Bike fit
Originally posted by triathlonpal07

so what you are saying is, ask them if they have a fit bike (haven't seen one in the shop) and then if not, look someplace else? I looked on Retul's website and they don't have any others in my area. Guru does though. Any input on the difference between the various systems like that?


When I was in Miami I had someone do a "setup" for $85 and I loved it. When I got my new tri bike I was convinced that Retul would be worth the $200. I was so let down! It appeared to be the same thing. They both put stickers on me, but one used the fancy camera and the other used an Ipad. When I get fit again I will do it for cheap with someone that is skilled or on one of those fancy bikes hopefully with someone who is also skilled :D. If you only want to confirm your cleat angles and such I would do the $100 fit. Like FF said, they can tell the angles just by looking now.

Finding Freestyle I sent you a PM you might be close enough too me and I'm looking for a fit.
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