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2015-10-08 8:08 AM

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Subject: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
http://tower26.com/dont-do-these-in-triathlon-swimming/

I just finished the total immersion book and saw some nice advances in my swim times by following Terry Laughlin's technique advice. The url I listed above suggests I don't do these things in a tri event i.e. front quadrant swimming, glide, have low stroke rates... being a novice, and never knowing which advice to follow, I hope you can see my frustration at this. For now I am sticking with what has helped me, especially since this guy doesn't offer any "do's of swimming", but would like some input from all of you as to why this blog suggests to not use these techniques.
Thanks C


2015-10-08 8:20 AM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Not going to comment on all of them but there is some truth that ideal technique for swimming in open water, particularly in rougher conditions, is a bit different than for pool racing. If you watch the pros, they tend to use shorter strokes with a higher stroke rate in rough conditions, with less glide. This lets them power through current better or deal with strokes that might be cut short by contact on the swim. As for breathing, in OWS, you need to have the skills to breathe to either or both sides, depending on current, sighting needs, possibly swimming into the sun, contact with other swimmers, etc. It's not realistic or desirable that you're always breathing every 3 strokes. There may be times when it's best to breathe every 2, to get more oxygen if tired in a long race, for example, or if breathing only works to one side due to the current. Or you might have to sometimes go 6-10 strokes before breathing if trying to work your way into the clear. You need to have a comfort level with different breathing patterns, to either side, that you can use flexibly.

However, I'd guess that most accomplished tri swimmers have good technique in the pool, too. Open water's just a different environment, and some things that might be optimal in one might not be the most effective in another. It's like the difference between track racing and trail running or cross country. There's obviously some crossover with fitness and run technique, but also some technical differences. Will let the fish chime in on some of the other points. It's still swimming, though, and good basic technique and fitness will get you a long way. Most people would do well to master the basics (rotation, body position, breath control) before getting into the subtle differences.
2015-10-08 8:33 AM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Congratulations on your improvements!

I'm not a TI coach, but my mentor coach, Suzanne Atkinson, is the Master Coach for TI, so I'm pretty familiar with the approach.  She coaches everybody from beginners to some of the fastest amateur triathletes in the country.

Nothing jumps out at me on that page that's contradictory to what I know of the current TI philosophy.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the things covered in the introductory TI book are the end of the line as far as TI coaching and philosophy is concerned.  It goes way beyond that.  It is only an introduction to the concepts and basic technique.  It focuses on swimming technically well, but not necessarily swimming fast.  That comes later.  Take what you learned there regarding the importance of balance, streamlining, and efficient movement, and layer on higher levels of fitness, speed, and power, and you arrive at the same place as other methodologies:  performance.

 

2015-10-08 10:08 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by Hot Runner

Not going to comment on all of them but there is some truth that ideal technique for swimming in open water, particularly in rougher conditions, is a bit different than for pool racing. If you watch the pros, they tend to use shorter strokes with a higher stroke rate in rough conditions, with less glide. This lets them power through current better or deal with strokes that might be cut short by contact on the swim. As for breathing, in OWS, you need to have the skills to breathe to either or both sides, depending on current, sighting needs, possibly swimming into the sun, contact with other swimmers, etc. It's not realistic or desirable that you're always breathing every 3 strokes. There may be times when it's best to breathe every 2, to get more oxygen if tired in a long race, for example, or if breathing only works to one side due to the current. Or you might have to sometimes go 6-10 strokes before breathing if trying to work your way into the clear. You need to have a comfort level with different breathing patterns, to either side, that you can use flexibly.

However, I'd guess that most accomplished tri swimmers have good technique in the pool, too. Open water's just a different environment, and some things that might be optimal in one might not be the most effective in another. It's like the difference between track racing and trail running or cross country. There's obviously some crossover with fitness and run technique, but also some technical differences. Will let the fish chime in on some of the other points. It's still swimming, though, and good basic technique and fitness will get you a long way. Most people would do well to master the basics (rotation, body position, breath control) before getting into the subtle differences.


Good points, thanks!
2015-10-08 10:09 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Thanks, I guess I never thought of looking further into the TI materials. I read the book and put it down. Thanks for the advice!
2015-10-08 10:33 AM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Don't worry about 50+ point lists of what not to do in swimming.

Do be adaptable in races and practice so that you can be adaptable (breathing on both sides, changing technique to deal with water conditions, etc.)

I'd didn't learn to swim using TI, but I did use TI to get much more efficient.  Now I use the basic tenants of TI focusing on streamlined swimming and efficiency in both practice and races.  For most races, I start at the front of the pack and sprint off the start line.  Once I get comfortably out of the pack, I usually change to a much more efficient, although still strong, stroke.   



2015-10-08 12:53 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Thanks Hook'em!
2015-10-08 4:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by cwiehle0

http://tower26.com/dont-do-these-in-triathlon-swimming/

For now I am sticking with what has helped me, especially since this guy doesn't offer any "do's of swimming", but would like some input from all of you as to why this blog suggests to not use these techniques.
Thanks C


Certainly stick with what has helped you and what works for you. Olympic swimmers don't have the same exact strokes/technique/etc.

As for your comment about "this guy doesn't offer any 'do's of swimming:'" It is not a stretch to infer the opposite (not for every point) of what he is saying to get what he would recommend. Personally, I really like his approach, but Gerry R. is opinionated to his own way of thinking and he believes that there is alot of bad information out there about triathlon swim training.

Here is a presentation the same guy (Gerry) did about triathlon swim training (there are multiple parts, I've linked part a...you can easily click on the others). He focuses a lot more on the "do's of swimming" in this...and you'll get a feeling for his philosophy and the list you referenced will have a bit more context and explaining from him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fi5R65Isxw&list=PLBF77DE2C8EAC3FE4


Edited by d.wilk 2015-10-08 4:41 PM
2015-10-08 4:56 PM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

If you are improving stay with what works.

Gerry is a local coach and several folks really like him and I know loads of people that have gotten faster in his masters classes...  THe important part there is IN his class, with specific guidance.

A bullet point list of things is not really of any use to you as a novice swimmer.  I can put some of those things into practice, but even then it's not as good as actually swimming, or having a coach on deck.   I sort of view that list as being directed to people he coaches or are familiar with his style, as reminders of what not to do (he's already taught them what to do)

File the list away and revisit it once you have some more experience.  You may find that it is more helpful later in your swimming progress.

2015-10-08 5:57 PM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
I'm a little surprised by the "don't breathe every third stroke or higher" rule. When I do bilateral breathing, I speed up. Is there a reason for this?
2015-10-08 6:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by b2run

I'm a little surprised by the "don't breathe every third stroke or higher" rule.


The more oxygen the better.

Originally posted by b2run
When I do bilateral breathing, I speed up. Is there a reason for this?


I do know that for me, when I breath to the left, which is not my natural side, my cadence (strokes per minute) increases.
I am faster, but I do tire faster. I am not sure why my cadence goes up, but it does. I noticed it with my Garmin in open water.

Edited by marcag 2015-10-08 6:06 PM


2015-10-08 6:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by b2run I'm a little surprised by the "don't breathe every third stroke or higher" rule. When I do bilateral breathing, I speed up. Is there a reason for this?

You are likely over rotating when you breath to only one side.  Bilateral breathing helps keep you more balanced.

2015-10-08 8:39 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by b2run I'm a little surprised by the "don't breathe every third stroke or higher" rule. When I do bilateral breathing, I speed up. Is there a reason for this?

You are likely over rotating when you breath to only one side.  Bilateral breathing helps keep you more balanced.




So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
2015-10-08 9:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by b2run
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by b2run I'm a little surprised by the "don't breathe every third stroke or higher" rule. When I do bilateral breathing, I speed up. Is there a reason for this?

You are likely over rotating when you breath to only one side.  Bilateral breathing helps keep you more balanced.

So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?

Beats me.......everybody I'm around is trying to swim fast.

He asked why he is "faster" with bilateral breathing.....and I promise that faster, in this case, is relative.  He is "faster" because he is better balanced.....there is a flaw in his stroke when he breaths to one side.  It is minimized when he has to think about breathing and rotating the other way.

The FASTEST way to swim is NO BREATHING.  But you can't do it for very long.  

Watch how many times the guys swimming the 20 second 50's breath.  Tell me if it's more than 3 strokes.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-10-08 9:33 PM
2015-10-09 2:42 AM
in reply to: b2run


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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by b2run

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by b2run I'm a little surprised by the "don't breathe every third stroke or higher" rule. When I do bilateral breathing, I speed up. Is there a reason for this?

You are likely over rotating when you breath to only one side.  Bilateral breathing helps keep you more balanced.




So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?


It says what??

2015-10-09 4:18 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by b2run
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by b2run I'm a little surprised by the "don't breathe every third stroke or higher" rule. When I do bilateral breathing, I speed up. Is there a reason for this?

You are likely over rotating when you breath to only one side.  Bilateral breathing helps keep you more balanced.

So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
It says what??
He's talking about the stereotypical AOS triathlete who thinks bilateral breathing is breathing in a set pattern every 3 or 5 strokes so they alternate sides. The "do" to this "don't" would be "just breathe whenever and to whichever side conditions and oxygen demands dictate."


2015-10-09 6:53 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Thanks for the discussion everyone!
2015-10-09 7:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by b2run
So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?



There are several things going on

As Don said there is a difference between bi-lateral breathing and breathing every 3 strokes. Breathing 5 strokes on the left, then 5 on the right, or 2 on the left, 2 on the right are all forms of bilateral breathing. For many people, this will smoothen out their stroke and balance things, resulting in swimming more efficiently

But you want as much oxygen as possible. Gary Hall Sr published an article and he went through the math on it. A typical swimmer is doing 60 strokes per minutes. Breath every 3 and you are getting 20 breaths per minute which is not enough for an endurance event like a triathlon. He goes on to explain a pattern where you are getting more oxygen but requires the ability to breath bilaterally, but not every 3 strokes.

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/07/training/a-better-way-to-br...

IMO not for everyone but worth reading

I experimented a lot, breathing every 3, then 2 one side, 2 another...as much as 6x one side, 6 the other. I definitely benefit from breathing on both sides to balance things. But definitely not every 3.

And the reason people don't breath much on a 50m sprint has a lot more to do with energy pathways than losing time by breathing. Don't try to mininimize the number of breaths you take in an endurance event
2015-10-09 7:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Tower 26 > TI every time.

2015-10-09 8:06 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by b2run So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
There are several things going on As Don said there is a difference between bi-lateral breathing and breathing every 3 strokes. Breathing 5 strokes on the left, then 5 on the right, or 2 on the left, 2 on the right are all forms of bilateral breathing. For many people, this will smoothen out their stroke and balance things, resulting in swimming more efficiently But you want as much oxygen as possible. Gary Hall Sr published an article and he went through the math on it. A typical swimmer is doing 60 strokes per minutes. Breath every 3 and you are getting 20 breaths per minute which is not enough for an endurance event like a triathlon. He goes on to explain a pattern where you are getting more oxygen but requires the ability to breath bilaterally, but not every 3 strokes. http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/07/training/a-better-way-to-br... IMO not for everyone but worth reading I experimented a lot, breathing every 3, then 2 one side, 2 another...as much as 6x one side, 6 the other. I definitely benefit from breathing on both sides to balance things. But definitely not every 3. And the reason people don't breath much on a 50m sprint has a lot more to do with energy pathways than losing time by breathing. Don't try to mininimize the number of breaths you take in an endurance event

No. 

The pathways are built in the training.  The fastest way to swim a 50 is with as little breathing as possible.  And the 50 is the fastest swim anyone will do.  I was just making a point about breathing.  Of course, like we both said, you can't swim for very long with no breaths, so it doesn't apply to endurance swimming, as we both said.

That being said.......at the bouys it's sometimes VERY beneficial to be able to swim with a minimal amount of breaths for a bit of distance.

Praticing swimming with few breaths is good, especially if you plan to be in the battle in a triathlon swim.

As always, the disconnect is probably in the definition of "fast".  I don't think people who swim/train only for triathlon quite get that.

2015-10-09 8:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by b2run So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
There are several things going on As Don said there is a difference between bi-lateral breathing and breathing every 3 strokes. Breathing 5 strokes on the left, then 5 on the right, or 2 on the left, 2 on the right are all forms of bilateral breathing. For many people, this will smoothen out their stroke and balance things, resulting in swimming more efficiently But you want as much oxygen as possible. Gary Hall Sr published an article and he went through the math on it. A typical swimmer is doing 60 strokes per minutes. Breath every 3 and you are getting 20 breaths per minute which is not enough for an endurance event like a triathlon. He goes on to explain a pattern where you are getting more oxygen but requires the ability to breath bilaterally, but not every 3 strokes. http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/07/training/a-better-way-to-br... IMO not for everyone but worth reading I experimented a lot, breathing every 3, then 2 one side, 2 another...as much as 6x one side, 6 the other. I definitely benefit from breathing on both sides to balance things. But definitely not every 3. And the reason people don't breath much on a 50m sprint has a lot more to do with energy pathways than losing time by breathing. Don't try to mininimize the number of breaths you take in an endurance event

No. 

The pathways are built in the training.  The fastest way to swim a 50 is with as little breathing as possible.  And the 50 is the fastest swim anyone will do.  I was just making a point about breathing.  Of course, like we both said, you can't swim for very long with no breaths, so it doesn't apply to endurance swimming, as we both said.

That being said.......at the bouys it's sometimes VERY beneficial to be able to swim with a minimal amount of breaths for a bit of distance.

Praticing swimming with few breaths is good, especially if you plan to be in the battle in a triathlon swim.

As always, the disconnect is probably in the definition of "fast".  I don't think people who swim/train only for triathlon quite get that.

the 50m isn't an endurance event, its a sprint.  That's why it isn't about breaths.  for a 1500m its a different story



2015-10-09 8:14 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by b2run So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
There are several things going on As Don said there is a difference between bi-lateral breathing and breathing every 3 strokes. Breathing 5 strokes on the left, then 5 on the right, or 2 on the left, 2 on the right are all forms of bilateral breathing. For many people, this will smoothen out their stroke and balance things, resulting in swimming more efficiently But you want as much oxygen as possible. Gary Hall Sr published an article and he went through the math on it. A typical swimmer is doing 60 strokes per minutes. Breath every 3 and you are getting 20 breaths per minute which is not enough for an endurance event like a triathlon. He goes on to explain a pattern where you are getting more oxygen but requires the ability to breath bilaterally, but not every 3 strokes. http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/07/training/a-better-way-to-br... IMO not for everyone but worth reading I experimented a lot, breathing every 3, then 2 one side, 2 another...as much as 6x one side, 6 the other. I definitely benefit from breathing on both sides to balance things. But definitely not every 3. And the reason people don't breath much on a 50m sprint has a lot more to do with energy pathways than losing time by breathing. Don't try to mininimize the number of breaths you take in an endurance event

No. 

The pathways are built in the training.  The fastest way to swim a 50 is with as little breathing as possible.  And the 50 is the fastest swim anyone will do.  I was just making a point about breathing.  Of course, like we both said, you can't swim for very long with no breaths, so it doesn't apply to endurance swimming, as we both said.

That being said.......at the bouys it's sometimes VERY beneficial to be able to swim with a minimal amount of breaths for a bit of distance.

Praticing swimming with few breaths is good, especially if you plan to be in the battle in a triathlon swim.

As always, the disconnect is probably in the definition of "fast".  I don't think people who swim/train only for triathlon quite get that.




NO, the disconnect is not understanding the difference the difference between a purely aerobic effort and a mostly anaerobic effort.
2015-10-09 8:31 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by b2run So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
There are several things going on As Don said there is a difference between bi-lateral breathing and breathing every 3 strokes. Breathing 5 strokes on the left, then 5 on the right, or 2 on the left, 2 on the right are all forms of bilateral breathing. For many people, this will smoothen out their stroke and balance things, resulting in swimming more efficiently But you want as much oxygen as possible. Gary Hall Sr published an article and he went through the math on it. A typical swimmer is doing 60 strokes per minutes. Breath every 3 and you are getting 20 breaths per minute which is not enough for an endurance event like a triathlon. He goes on to explain a pattern where you are getting more oxygen but requires the ability to breath bilaterally, but not every 3 strokes. http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/07/training/a-better-way-to-br... IMO not for everyone but worth reading I experimented a lot, breathing every 3, then 2 one side, 2 another...as much as 6x one side, 6 the other. I definitely benefit from breathing on both sides to balance things. But definitely not every 3. And the reason people don't breath much on a 50m sprint has a lot more to do with energy pathways than losing time by breathing. Don't try to mininimize the number of breaths you take in an endurance event

No. 

The pathways are built in the training.  The fastest way to swim a 50 is with as little breathing as possible.  And the 50 is the fastest swim anyone will do.  I was just making a point about breathing.  Of course, like we both said, you can't swim for very long with no breaths, so it doesn't apply to endurance swimming, as we both said.

That being said.......at the bouys it's sometimes VERY beneficial to be able to swim with a minimal amount of breaths for a bit of distance.

Praticing swimming with few breaths is good, especially if you plan to be in the battle in a triathlon swim.

As always, the disconnect is probably in the definition of "fast".  I don't think people who swim/train only for triathlon quite get that.

the 50m isn't an endurance event, its a sprint.  That's why it isn't about breaths.  for a 1500m its a different story

Of course.  Look, my comments are only in response to a poster who wanted to know why he swims faster when he breaths less. (which is what happens with bilateral breathing as most people understand it). 

But.....just to keep you guys aggravated......if you could swim a 1500 without breathing you'd be smoking fast.

2015-10-09 8:32 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by b2run So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
There are several things going on As Don said there is a difference between bi-lateral breathing and breathing every 3 strokes. Breathing 5 strokes on the left, then 5 on the right, or 2 on the left, 2 on the right are all forms of bilateral breathing. For many people, this will smoothen out their stroke and balance things, resulting in swimming more efficiently But you want as much oxygen as possible. Gary Hall Sr published an article and he went through the math on it. A typical swimmer is doing 60 strokes per minutes. Breath every 3 and you are getting 20 breaths per minute which is not enough for an endurance event like a triathlon. He goes on to explain a pattern where you are getting more oxygen but requires the ability to breath bilaterally, but not every 3 strokes. http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/07/training/a-better-way-to-br... IMO not for everyone but worth reading I experimented a lot, breathing every 3, then 2 one side, 2 another...as much as 6x one side, 6 the other. I definitely benefit from breathing on both sides to balance things. But definitely not every 3. And the reason people don't breath much on a 50m sprint has a lot more to do with energy pathways than losing time by breathing. Don't try to mininimize the number of breaths you take in an endurance event

No. 

The pathways are built in the training.  The fastest way to swim a 50 is with as little breathing as possible.  And the 50 is the fastest swim anyone will do.  I was just making a point about breathing.  Of course, like we both said, you can't swim for very long with no breaths, so it doesn't apply to endurance swimming, as we both said.

That being said.......at the bouys it's sometimes VERY beneficial to be able to swim with a minimal amount of breaths for a bit of distance.

Praticing swimming with few breaths is good, especially if you plan to be in the battle in a triathlon swim.

As always, the disconnect is probably in the definition of "fast".  I don't think people who swim/train only for triathlon quite get that.

NO, the disconnect is not understanding the difference the difference between a purely aerobic effort and a mostly anaerobic effort.

Stop gnashing your teeth and read my reply to dmiller. LMAO

2015-10-09 8:36 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by b2run So then why does the list of don'ts say not to breath every three strokes or more?
There are several things going on As Don said there is a difference between bi-lateral breathing and breathing every 3 strokes. Breathing 5 strokes on the left, then 5 on the right, or 2 on the left, 2 on the right are all forms of bilateral breathing. For many people, this will smoothen out their stroke and balance things, resulting in swimming more efficiently But you want as much oxygen as possible. Gary Hall Sr published an article and he went through the math on it. A typical swimmer is doing 60 strokes per minutes. Breath every 3 and you are getting 20 breaths per minute which is not enough for an endurance event like a triathlon. He goes on to explain a pattern where you are getting more oxygen but requires the ability to breath bilaterally, but not every 3 strokes. http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/07/training/a-better-way-to-br... IMO not for everyone but worth reading I experimented a lot, breathing every 3, then 2 one side, 2 another...as much as 6x one side, 6 the other. I definitely benefit from breathing on both sides to balance things. But definitely not every 3. And the reason people don't breath much on a 50m sprint has a lot more to do with energy pathways than losing time by breathing. Don't try to mininimize the number of breaths you take in an endurance event

No. 

The pathways are built in the training.  The fastest way to swim a 50 is with as little breathing as possible.  And the 50 is the fastest swim anyone will do.  I was just making a point about breathing.  Of course, like we both said, you can't swim for very long with no breaths, so it doesn't apply to endurance swimming, as we both said.

That being said.......at the bouys it's sometimes VERY beneficial to be able to swim with a minimal amount of breaths for a bit of distance.

Praticing swimming with few breaths is good, especially if you plan to be in the battle in a triathlon swim.

As always, the disconnect is probably in the definition of "fast".  I don't think people who swim/train only for triathlon quite get that.

NO, the disconnect is not understanding the difference the difference between a purely aerobic effort and a mostly anaerobic effort.

Stop gnashing your teeth and read my reply to dmiller. LMAO




I don't gnash my teeth. I get a chuckle out of some of your understanding of things. You make me smile.
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Started by tc681
Views: 2302 Posts: 26

2007-06-07 2:35 PM dylanslovey

Next time you DON'T WANT TO SWIM/BIKE/RUN

Started by swbkrun
Views: 1113 Posts: 6

2007-02-26 11:16 PM NightOwl

Swim question - I just don't get the sets thing

Started by cobannero
Views: 1886 Posts: 21

2005-12-08 2:54 PM amiine
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