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2015-10-10 4:51 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by zedzded

I can't find any footage of anyone swimming fast using TI techniques, can someone kindly post a video so I can see what fast TI swimming looks like please? All I can find is videos of people that swim like my Grandma.


^^this. It sounds like there are fast TI swimmers based on the comments above, but I couldn't find any videos and I'm very curious to see what it looks like. All the videos I've seen look like the swimming equivalent of a motorized scooter at Walmart. I just can't picture those same mechanics moving fast.


2015-10-10 7:07 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Since when is a national championship result required in order to validate a coaching system?

But since someone asked how many national champions have I coached, the answer is two national champions...one of whom is also a current world champion as well as a TI Coach herself.

Kirsten Sass has won five overall national champions this year in sprint, olympic, long course triathlon, as well as duathlon and aquathon.
Press release from 10 days ago:
http://www.usatriathlon.org/news/articles/2015/9/093015-long-course...

She also won the overall age group Olympic ITU race in Chicago this year. Don't misread that...she is the current non-pro world champion in Olympic Distance, not just for her age group.

Heres an interview with her and myself conducted by TI founder Terry Laughlin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQI7ich7eco

I've also coached an 800m long course masters national champion in her AG, and worked with two pro female triathletes who have competed at Kona. I'm not claiming to be their primary coach...they have sought me out for swim improvement despite having full time coaches that they work with. There is a certain male pro triathlete who has several Ironman pro podiums and competed at Kona who is also heavily influenced by TI coaching and gets tune ups anytime he's at his in-laws house in Boston.

This years overall age group winner of IM Wisconsin (Michelle Andres) is a TI swimmer who has attended our open water camp in Kona and worked with TI coach Dave Cameron in Minneapolis.

I used to debate a lot about swimming and TI and try to dispel a lot of myths, in fact, you can search these archives and see where I have actually criticized TI in the past for all the reasons people are posting here. But then I took a TI weekend workshop and subsequently coaching course, and have completely changed my perspective. If I find that old thread where I questioned TI I'll post a link here. I changed my mind as a result of exposure and ongoing searching for mentorship in my coaching and feedback on my own swimming.

Just Like all athletes are not the same, not all coaches are the same. Not all TI coaches are interested in coaching elite athletes, nor do they pursue ongoing swim coaching education with other TI coaches or other national and world class coaches at places like ASCA conferences.

I've met Sheila and Dr. G and Karlyn Pipes and did a nice podcast interview with Karlyn. I took a swim lesson with Karlyn at Kona last year and let her assess my "before" swim before telling her I was a TI coach/swimmer. She had just spent considerable energy in the 2 mini-lessons prior to mine heavily criticizing TI based on how the 2 prior swimmers technique. Here's the funny part... I completely agreed with her assessment of their stroke based on what TI currently teaches. I proceeded to take a lesson with her and appreciated and valued her feedback...and I'm happy to link to those videos I've posted on youtube as well.

WE (swim coaches) are all after an end goal that overlaps about 95%, the 5% that is different are what causes many arguments and debate. Yes, it really is a tiny percentage that we take different approaches to.

Bottom line...if you're improving keep doing what your doing. If you've stopped improving, try something different. If you're really stuck, come see me I'll get you unstuck.

OK, I think I'm at my annual quota for Bt posting. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions


EDIT: I reread the question...not about how many national champions i've coached, but how many i've coached TO national championships. Four different athletes competing in both sprint & olympic distance (Fine if you only want to count Olympic).





Thanks for posting!
2015-10-10 7:29 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by AdventureBear

OK, I think I'm at my annual quota for Bt posting.



This is unfortunate. Not surprising, but unfortunate. At least I know one place you hang out :-)
2015-10-10 7:33 AM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Hey guys, I am the OP on this thread. I would just like to clarify that I was not trying to advocate nor denounce one training method over another. I just wanted to state that I have swam on/off for the last 6-7 years (for basic excercise) and really had no improvements until I read the TI book. Again, not saying it's better or worse than someone elses teachings, it's simply what I chose to read. Am I fast? By most of your standards - no! By my own standards, I can say that it has offered me a solid foundation to build upon, which many of the other posters I think are trying to convey. Within 2 sessions I could swim twice as long without feeling the fatigue I normally would in conjunction with dropping my times. Win win IMO. I now feel confident enough to seek help at the next level. Will I tell this coach when I find him/her that I will only accept TI techniques, heck no. Like anything else I have done in my life it will be a continual search for what works.
2015-10-10 7:47 AM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
I would let that coach know that as well as basic technique work, you are interested in working on skills specific to open water swimming. I know that with the coaches I have worked with, at least the ones who did technique work, once they knew I was a triathlete, they were able to provide useful feedback and tri-specific drills. But that assumes the swimmer has a reasonable grasp of swim fundamentals first. Best bet is a qualified swim coach who is also a triathlete and/or has competitive open water swim experience.
2015-10-10 8:06 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

I don't think I understand why TI is so controversial.  I read one of the books and watched online videos a number of years back and used some of the principles/drills extensively over a winter.  I'm not a good swimmer but it helped me then.  I would imagine a TI coach, in person, could also help my swim.  I know quite a few top level swim coaches who don't use TI, but they are familiar with it and don't bash it.  I think the advice that Suzanne gives is solid, as is her reputation as a coach.  Still, for as long as I can remember, and on every triathlon board I've ever looked at or been a part of, there is a constant argument over TI vs. "conventional" swimming/coaching (whatever that is).  I don't get it.  I watch a lot of swim practice, with top level coaches on deck.  I recognize some of the things they teach from what little I know about TI....so there is definately some crossover (after all, it's swimming, it's been around awhile, there isn't any "new" swimming).  Still......there seems to be non-stop controversy on any thread about TI.



2015-10-10 8:12 AM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by cwiehle0

Hey guys, I am the OP on this thread. I would just like to clarify that I was not trying to advocate nor denounce one training method over another. I just wanted to state that I have swam on/off for the last 6-7 years (for basic excercise) and really had no improvements until I read the TI book. Again, not saying it's better or worse than someone elses teachings, it's simply what I chose to read. Am I fast? By most of your standards - no! By my own standards, I can say that it has offered me a solid foundation to build upon, which many of the other posters I think are trying to convey. Within 2 sessions I could swim twice as long without feeling the fatigue I normally would in conjunction with dropping my times. Win win IMO. I now feel confident enough to seek help at the next level. Will I tell this coach when I find him/her that I will only accept TI techniques, heck no. Like anything else I have done in my life it will be a continual search for what works.


I think you're saying the same thing I am. That it looks to me that this is a step along the way for some folks to fast swimming, but if you ever want to be FOP, then you need to move on to another form. This may not be the case. I'm not familiar enough with it to know, but from what I have seen, that is what it appears to me. Some posters are saying that there are top level athletes that utilize this technique and I personally can't picture that from looking at the videos I've seen, so I'm just curious as to what that looks like. I've read a lot of posts where people see good gains from utilizing TI, and for that, it seems to have a legitimate place. I think what myself and some others are asking is; can this ever be utilized to go fast? Or do you have to leave this method and go to a more traditional swimming style to go quickly. It's like a run/walk strategy; it certainly has a place in building fitness, but nobody's going to qualify for Kona, or even place in an AG of a relatively large race run/walking.

P.S. I realize "fast" is a relative term. I'm speaking of a broader definition of what fast is. Ask LB and he'll say something very different, but I'm saying from an AGer perspective, which I would consider being able to swim a 100yd freestyle comfortably below 1:00min.
2015-10-10 8:52 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think I understand why TI is so controversial.  I read one of the books and watched online videos a number of years back and used some of the principles/drills extensively over a winter.  I'm not a good swimmer but it helped me then.  I would imagine a TI coach, in person, could also help my swim.  I know quite a few top level swim coaches who don't use TI, but they are familiar with it and don't bash it.  I think the advice that Suzanne gives is solid, as is her reputation as a coach.  Still, for as long as I can remember, and on every triathlon board I've ever looked at or been a part of, there is a constant argument over TI vs. "conventional" swimming/coaching (whatever that is).  I don't get it.  I watch a lot of swim practice, with top level coaches on deck.  I recognize some of the things they teach from what little I know about TI....so there is definately some crossover (after all, it's swimming, it's been around awhile, there isn't any "new" swimming).  Still......there seems to be non-stop controversy on any thread about TI.




I think it's just a definition thing. If TI swimming is a tool (like a drill) that can help your form and make you faster, then I think everyone can accept that.

What becomes controversial is when someone says you can swim exactly like this:

https://youtu.be/hC8ZZZhabp4

and be competitive at any level, that's where people get bent out of shape. So if you swim in that manner to work on your technique...then we're ok. If you swim like that in an event and say you're going to be competitive. Well, I personally can't picture that. I'd love to see what that looks like.

2015-10-10 10:12 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by 3mar

What becomes controversial is when someone says you can swim exactly like this:

https://youtu.be/hC8ZZZhabp4

and be competitive at any level, that's where people get bent out of shape. So if you swim in that manner to work on your technique...then we're ok. If you swim like that in an event and say you're going to be competitive. Well, I personally can't picture that. I'd love to see what that looks like.




Terry has held several 1 & 2 mile cable swim age group national championships swimming pretty close to what you see there.
scattered through this video are some race clips of Terry as well as "spirited" group swimming and you can compare to see what a fastrr version looks like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZlXTswcpbc

Here's an olympian, who is also a TI coach swimming with a little more gusto...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMF24_H_6vQ
2015-10-11 4:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think I understand why TI is so controversial. 


Left Brain, a lot of your posts re swimming I agree with and respect your opinion, but re TI... I don't get it. Initially when I heard about it, I did a bit of investigation on the internet as I was curious, all I could find is people swimming with a lovely, graceful stroke, no splashes, great. But they're all SLOW! I could not give two hoots how I look in the water, I just want to get from A - B as fast as possible.
All TI seems to mention is efficiency and getting faster yet there is nothing on the internet that supports this. Lots of videos of people moving gracefully through the water, absolutely none of people swimming fast. Its bizarre. Show me a video of someone caning up and down the pool doing 1.10/100s using TI principles. Or some race footage with a FOP swimmer using TI principles.

Have a look at this video and let me know how many TI swimmers you spot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21biDHEKto

Maybe there is something I'm missing, is this kind of swimming actually aimed at competitive swimmers? Or is just to help people develop better technique?

Edited by zedzded 2015-10-11 4:19 AM
2015-10-11 8:12 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think I understand why TI is so controversial. 

Left Brain, a lot of your posts re swimming I agree with and respect your opinion, but re TI... I don't get it. Initially when I heard about it, I did a bit of investigation on the internet as I was curious, all I could find is people swimming with a lovely, graceful stroke, no splashes, great. But they're all SLOW! I could not give two hoots how I look in the water, I just want to get from A - B as fast as possible. All TI seems to mention is efficiency and getting faster yet there is nothing on the internet that supports this. Lots of videos of people moving gracefully through the water, absolutely none of people swimming fast. Its bizarre. Show me a video of someone caning up and down the pool doing 1.10/100s using TI principles. Or some race footage with a FOP swimmer using TI principles. Have a look at this video and let me know how many TI swimmers you spot! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21biDHEKtoMaybe there is something I'm missing, is this kind of swimming actually aimed at competitive swimmers? Or is just to help people develop better technique?

I'll be blunt.  Yes, you don't get it.  You seem to equate fast swimming with thrashing about and smooth efficient movements at slow speeds with an inability to achieve a faster turnover for faster speeds.  They're not mutually exclusive.

Asking that question about the video reveals the disconnect you've got.  There could very well be quite a few TI influenced swimmers in that video, but it's not possible to tell.  At fast speeds, and viewed from the surface in real time, someone who employs TI principles is going to be nearly indistinguishable from someone who arrived there primarily via other methodologies.  Ask them all to slow down and swim using their best technique, and view them from under water, then you would have a better likelihood of telling who's stroke was influenced by TI, but even then, it may be difficult to tell one from another, because they're all highly skilled.  Notice I'm saying "influenced" by TI.  That's because very few people achieve that level of performance following only one methodology exclusively.  Most have worked with multiple coaches who each contributed different things to that athlete's development.

TI is just one path to take to get to the same place that can be found through other routes.

 



2015-10-11 12:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think I understand why TI is so controversial. 

Left Brain, a lot of your posts re swimming I agree with and respect your opinion, but re TI... I don't get it. Initially when I heard about it, I did a bit of investigation on the internet as I was curious, all I could find is people swimming with a lovely, graceful stroke, no splashes, great. But they're all SLOW! I could not give two hoots how I look in the water, I just want to get from A - B as fast as possible. All TI seems to mention is efficiency and getting faster yet there is nothing on the internet that supports this. Lots of videos of people moving gracefully through the water, absolutely none of people swimming fast. Its bizarre. Show me a video of someone caning up and down the pool doing 1.10/100s using TI principles. Or some race footage with a FOP swimmer using TI principles. Have a look at this video and let me know how many TI swimmers you spot! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21biDHEKtoMaybe there is something I'm missing, is this kind of swimming actually aimed at competitive swimmers? Or is just to help people develop better technique?

I'll be blunt.  Yes, you don't get it.  You seem to equate fast swimming with thrashing about and smooth efficient movements at slow speeds with an inability to achieve a faster turnover for faster speeds.  They're not mutually exclusive.

Asking that question about the video reveals the disconnect you've got.  There could very well be quite a few TI influenced swimmers in that video, but it's not possible to tell.  At fast speeds, and viewed from the surface in real time, someone who employs TI principles is going to be nearly indistinguishable from someone who arrived there primarily via other methodologies.  Ask them all to slow down and swim using their best technique, and view them from under water, then you would have a better likelihood of telling who's stroke was influenced by TI, but even then, it may be difficult to tell one from another, because they're all highly skilled.  Notice I'm saying "influenced" by TI.  That's because very few people achieve that level of performance following only one methodology exclusively.  Most have worked with multiple coaches who each contributed different things to that athlete's development.

TI is just one path to take to get to the same place that can be found through other routes.

 

Again, I don't know enough about TI to talk about it, but I think Don makes some good points.  Even with the same coach, the training can look vastly different.  That same coach will have you lengthen your stroke for long course racing, chop it for open water racing, and tweak it again for short course racing.  The way that same coach wants you to kick in each of those disciplines is different as well. 

It's a funny thing to watch, but you really have to be around good swimmers, who feel the water really well, to see those subtle differences take place.  My kid races great in short course season....and then when tri season comes around his club goes to long course swim season.  I can stand on deck with my eyes closed and easily tell you which lane he is in.  It's all noise and splashing compared to the other swimmers who are now LCM swimming and concentrating on being much longer than he is while he concentrates on his open water technique.  Luckily, his coach knows the difference and teaches/coaches him for open water instead of long course.

I bolded feeling the water because I think, from what I know, TI is really helpful there.  It's almost a short cut to getting that feeling (trust me, most of us NEVER quite get it).  I always feel like I'm fighting to keep from sinking when I swim......my kid says, "dad, just lay on the damn water, how hard is it, let it support you".  Uh.....ok.  But I know that TI helps with that.....I've seen it and read it.  My kid says, "dad, your catch sucks because all you're using is your hand, you're missing the rest of your arm."  I know TI helps with that.  There are other examples, and I doubt he's ever even heard of TI, or cares about it.  My point is the same as it was earlier......swimming is not new.  The principles of fast swimming are not new.  I think TI can help people learn those principles. For some people, like I said, it's almost a short cut....it just helps them get it faster.  Like anything, it's not for everyone.

After the principles are learned (either coached or not, but likely so if you want it done well), then you find the coach who can hone them and help you find your speed.  And THAT'S where coaches will divide.  There are many ways to skin that cat.....and it doesn't matter what your "learning the principles" background is.  TI is certainly one way to get those principles.

In that regard, I don't get the TI bashing.  You must first LEARN TO SWIM.......and most triathletes aren't very good at it, no matter what they think.

 



Edited by Left Brain 2015-10-11 12:06 PM
2015-10-11 12:39 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

I don't really know enough about TI either to really discuss it but I've seen enough of what Suzanne posts to know that if her style is representative of the principles and methodology then there is a lot of good things happening there.  I certainly wouldn't hesitate to listen to her advice if I found myself in a situation where she could analyse my stroke.  I also wouldn't hesitate to send a friend to her if they wanted to learn how to swim.  No doubt it's not for everyone but that's almost certainly a universal statement for all methodologies.

I can understand why it would seem like it wouldn't be a fast way to swim based on the videos but at the same time I look at them and think that it's not a demonstration of someone swimming fast, it's a demonstration of someone swimming smooth and efficient.  As Don said - speed them up to a race pace situation and you probably can't tell without doing some close analysis.

2015-10-11 2:53 PM
in reply to: cwiehle0

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Is it just me or are both sides saying the same thing. Half of the posters are saying it's six and the other half are saying half dozen.

The anti-TIers are saying you can't swim exactly as shown in the video and go fast.

The pro- and unbiased-TIers are saying it's a tool to go fast.

Neither is a counter to the other.
2015-10-11 3:38 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by 3marIs it just me or are both sides saying the same thing. Half of the posters are saying it's six and the other half are saying half dozen.The anti-TIers are saying you can't swim exactly as shown in the video and go fast.The pro- and unbiased-TIers are saying it's a tool to go fast. Neither is a counter to the other.
Bingo! And, we're back where the thread started. The various methodologies aren't contradictory once you understand them.
2015-10-11 3:45 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by 3marIs it just me or are both sides saying the same thing. Half of the posters are saying it's six and the other half are saying half dozen.The anti-TIers are saying you can't swim exactly as shown in the video and go fast.The pro- and unbiased-TIers are saying it's a tool to go fast. Neither is a counter to the other.
Bingo! And, we're back where the thread started. The various methodologies aren't contradictory once you understand them.


It took me a while to get it.


2015-10-11 4:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by TriMyBest
Originally posted by 3marIs it just me or are both sides saying the same thing. Half of the posters are saying it's six and the other half are saying half dozen.The anti-TIers are saying you can't swim exactly as shown in the video and go fast.The pro- and unbiased-TIers are saying it's a tool to go fast. Neither is a counter to the other.
Bingo! And, we're back where the thread started. The various methodologies aren't contradictory once you understand them.
No idea what TI is but entertaining thread. Maybe it's time to talk about something less controversial. Pink< How's everyone feel about flip turns ? >Pink
2015-10-12 8:23 AM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Full disclosure, I an the developer of an online swim program that is probably a competitor to TI. I have read through ALL the TI literature and done most of the work.

This is the statement that distinguishes my program, Finding Freestyle - "This is not a course that attempts to teach you a single, correct, style of swimming. This course is intended to stimulate athletes to find their own optimal stroke technique."

IMO, TI DOES attempt to teach a single corect style of swimming, and this is their drawback. It is a "good", relaxing, easy to learn style of swimming that many find success with. However, from what I have seen and directly experienced, TI's long and strong catch up style of swimming can be detrimental to further development.

You shouldnt swim catch-up style or opposition style necessarily. You should acquire the skills that allow you to figure out for yourself what style best suits your body type, preferred kick rhythm, etc.

I think the reason TI is controversial is because their one style is going to be the best style for some, the worst style for others, and somewhere in between for most.

TI does follow a process, which is awesome and in my opinion, crucial to helping the swimmers develop. I think my process is better, meaning it gets more to the fundamentals shared by ALL sucessful swimmers, but at least TI has a prcoess. Many swim "programs" (Mr SwimSmooth for example) are really just a collection of tips and tricks, without a real process backing them up. Oh and the Mr SwimSmooth Holiday Diet, which I just recieved an email for.

Tips, tricks and poolside corrections are the LEAST effective way to teach adults to swim. Which is why this long list of do's and don't from Tower26 rubs me the wrong way. And Jerry CAN develop swimmers from what I see. He just needs more help developing effective blogs.
2015-10-12 1:35 PM
in reply to: Finding Freestyle

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Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Full disclosure, I an the developer of an online swim program that is probably a competitor to TI. I have read through ALL the TI literature and done most of the work. This is the statement that distinguishes my program, Finding Freestyle - "This is not a course that attempts to teach you a single, correct, style of swimming. This course is intended to stimulate athletes to find their own optimal stroke technique." IMO, TI DOES attempt to teach a single corect style of swimming, and this is their drawback. It is a "good", relaxing, easy to learn style of swimming that many find success with. However, from what I have seen and directly experienced, TI's long and strong catch up style of swimming can be detrimental to further development. You shouldnt swim catch-up style or opposition style necessarily. You should acquire the skills that allow you to figure out for yourself what style best suits your body type, preferred kick rhythm, etc. I think the reason TI is controversial is because their one style is going to be the best style for some, the worst style for others, and somewhere in between for most. TI does follow a process, which is awesome and in my opinion, crucial to helping the swimmers develop. I think my process is better, meaning it gets more to the fundamentals shared by ALL sucessful swimmers, but at least TI has a prcoess. Many swim "programs" (Mr SwimSmooth for example) are really just a collection of tips and tricks, without a real process backing them up. Oh and the Mr SwimSmooth Holiday Diet, which I just recieved an email for. Tips, tricks and poolside corrections are the LEAST effective way to teach adults to swim. Which is why this long list of do's and don't from Tower26 rubs me the wrong way. And Jerry CAN develop swimmers from what I see. He just needs more help developing effective blogs.

The biggest thing that  Suzanne and TI did for me was to get me actually thinking about what I was doing, being analytical and having a plan, not just logging laps and hoping my stroke would improve on its own.  

Not speaking for Terry or Suzanne, but it's obvious that TI has built a successful coaching business by catering to a specific target demographic which is more at the entry level than at the high-performance end of the spectrum.  Just smart business from my viewpoint.  I worked at our tri club's booth at a race expo last weekend and every perspective member I talked with told me either they couldn't swim or were afraid of the swim - perfect candidates for the TI method.      

If you've really read "ALL" of the TI literature, you'll know that Terry has evolved and fine-tuned the TI method over the years. For example, de-emphasizing "pressing the buoy" and "swimming downhill" that were prominent in early editions of his book.  (I've always had the latest edition of the TI book because I loan copies to friends who never return them or who in turn loan them to someone else -  I've bought the darn thing about four times.  You're welcome, Terry.)

None of this is to say that TI is the-end all for swimming instruction, but I do think they've gotten an unfair rap over the years, not unlike some of the criticism that Jeff Galloway has gotten over his run/walk/run running method.  They are both training philosophies that will help get people off the couch and up in pursuit of a  healthier lifestyle.  So what's wrong with that?  It's like some folks are threatened by it or something.

I also think that as you start to swim at higher tempos, the basic TI stroke starts to morph into something that has more in common with other "high-performance" techniques.  For example, the amount of 'glide' naturally decreases as turnover increases, serving to reduce or eliminate the deceleration between pulls.  Having studied swim technique going back to Doc Counsilman's "The Science of Swimming" back in the late '60's, I've got a hypothesis that most swim techniques will asymptotically approach some "perfect" technique if allowed to develop over time.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to work with Sheila Taormina since this past June.  Sheila and Terry have had their sparring matches in the past, and there are some distinct fundamental differences in what they teach.  I've had to "unlearn"  and "relearn" some things with Sheila, but at the same time a good deal of what I'm doing in the pool traces back to balance and positioning fundamentals I got from TI.   In the long run I think most swimmers will end up developing a unique style and technique that best fits their needs. 

Mark

 

 

 

 

        

 

 

2015-10-12 2:47 PM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Pro
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Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Full disclosure, I an the developer of an online swim program that is probably a competitor to TI. I have read through ALL the TI literature and done most of the work. This is the statement that distinguishes my program, Finding Freestyle - "This is not a course that attempts to teach you a single, correct, style of swimming. This course is intended to stimulate athletes to find their own optimal stroke technique." IMO, TI DOES attempt to teach a single corect style of swimming, and this is their drawback. It is a "good", relaxing, easy to learn style of swimming that many find success with. However, from what I have seen and directly experienced, TI's long and strong catch up style of swimming can be detrimental to further development. You shouldnt swim catch-up style or opposition style necessarily. You should acquire the skills that allow you to figure out for yourself what style best suits your body type, preferred kick rhythm, etc. I think the reason TI is controversial is because their one style is going to be the best style for some, the worst style for others, and somewhere in between for most. TI does follow a process, which is awesome and in my opinion, crucial to helping the swimmers develop. I think my process is better, meaning it gets more to the fundamentals shared by ALL sucessful swimmers, but at least TI has a prcoess. Many swim "programs" (Mr SwimSmooth for example) are really just a collection of tips and tricks, without a real process backing them up. Oh and the Mr SwimSmooth Holiday Diet, which I just recieved an email for. Tips, tricks and poolside corrections are the LEAST effective way to teach adults to swim. Which is why this long list of do's and don't from Tower26 rubs me the wrong way. And Jerry CAN develop swimmers from what I see. He just needs more help developing effective blogs.

The biggest thing that  Suzanne and TI did for me was to get me actually thinking about what I was doing, being analytical and having a plan, not just logging laps and hoping my stroke would improve on its own.  

Not speaking for Terry or Suzanne, but it's obvious that TI has built a successful coaching business by catering to a specific target demographic which is more at the entry level than at the high-performance end of the spectrum.  Just smart business from my viewpoint.  I worked at our tri club's booth at a race expo last weekend and every perspective member I talked with told me either they couldn't swim or were afraid of the swim - perfect candidates for the TI method.      

If you've really read "ALL" of the TI literature, you'll know that Terry has evolved and fine-tuned the TI method over the years. For example, de-emphasizing "pressing the buoy" and "swimming downhill" that were prominent in early editions of his book.  (I've always had the latest edition of the TI book because I loan copies to friends who never return them or who in turn loan them to someone else -  I've bought the darn thing about four times.  You're welcome, Terry.)

None of this is to say that TI is the-end all for swimming instruction, but I do think they've gotten an unfair rap over the years, not unlike some of the criticism that Jeff Galloway has gotten over his run/walk/run running method.  They are both training philosophies that will help get people off the couch and up in pursuit of a  healthier lifestyle.  So what's wrong with that?  It's like some folks are threatened by it or something.

I also think that as you start to swim at higher tempos, the basic TI stroke starts to morph into something that has more in common with other "high-performance" techniques.  For example, the amount of 'glide' naturally decreases as turnover increases, serving to reduce or eliminate the deceleration between pulls.  Having studied swim technique going back to Doc Counsilman's "The Science of Swimming" back in the late '60's, I've got a hypothesis that most swim techniques will asymptotically approach some "perfect" technique if allowed to develop over time.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to work with Sheila Taormina since this past June.  Sheila and Terry have had their sparring matches in the past, and there are some distinct fundamental differences in what they teach.  I've had to "unlearn"  and "relearn" some things with Sheila, but at the same time a good deal of what I'm doing in the pool traces back to balance and positioning fundamentals I got from TI.   In the long run I think most swimmers will end up developing a unique style and technique that best fits their needs. 

Mark

 

Very well said, Mark.  You are fortunate to have a fairly unique perspective.  Not that many AG triathletes have had the experience of working with two of the top swimming experts in our sport.  Now, spend some time with Dave Luscan, and you'll be able to write your own book and give lectures to help AGers navigate the world of swim coaching.  

Dave, Mark alludes to something that's an unintentional secret within the coaching world.  TI's methodologies have evolved considerably over the years, thanks in part to Terry having lieutenants like Suzanne who are always seeking better ways to do things.  That combined with TI's past success with their beginner material and a focus on ebooks instead of printed books in recent years (there aren't any printed books that present the current methodologies for more advanced swimmers) has resulted in TI having a reputation that doesn't really match what they do anymore.  The reference you made to TI only teaching a catch-up style of stroke rather than exploring what's best for the individual is the greatest example of the reputation not matching what they currently do.  I'd love to be a fly on the wall with you and she discussing swimming.  From what I know of her knowledge and how she does things, and what I've seen of your experience and philosophy based on discussions online, I'm confident that you'd agree on 95% of the approach for advanced swimmers.  Hearing the conversation about the 5% of differences would be fascinating and educational as heII.

 

2015-10-12 8:02 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Sarasota, FL
Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Full disclosure, I an the developer of an online swim program that is probably a competitor to TI. I have read through ALL the TI literature and done most of the work. This is the statement that distinguishes my program, Finding Freestyle - "This is not a course that attempts to teach you a single, correct, style of swimming. This course is intended to stimulate athletes to find their own optimal stroke technique." IMO, TI DOES attempt to teach a single corect style of swimming, and this is their drawback. It is a "good", relaxing, easy to learn style of swimming that many find success with. However, from what I have seen and directly experienced, TI's long and strong catch up style of swimming can be detrimental to further development. You shouldnt swim catch-up style or opposition style necessarily. You should acquire the skills that allow you to figure out for yourself what style best suits your body type, preferred kick rhythm, etc. I think the reason TI is controversial is because their one style is going to be the best style for some, the worst style for others, and somewhere in between for most. TI does follow a process, which is awesome and in my opinion, crucial to helping the swimmers develop. I think my process is better, meaning it gets more to the fundamentals shared by ALL sucessful swimmers, but at least TI has a prcoess. Many swim "programs" (Mr SwimSmooth for example) are really just a collection of tips and tricks, without a real process backing them up. Oh and the Mr SwimSmooth Holiday Diet, which I just recieved an email for. Tips, tricks and poolside corrections are the LEAST effective way to teach adults to swim. Which is why this long list of do's and don't from Tower26 rubs me the wrong way. And Jerry CAN develop swimmers from what I see. He just needs more help developing effective blogs.

The biggest thing that  Suzanne and TI did for me was to get me actually thinking about what I was doing, being analytical and having a plan, not just logging laps and hoping my stroke would improve on its own.  

Not speaking for Terry or Suzanne, but it's obvious that TI has built a successful coaching business by catering to a specific target demographic which is more at the entry level than at the high-performance end of the spectrum.  Just smart business from my viewpoint.  I worked at our tri club's booth at a race expo last weekend and every perspective member I talked with told me either they couldn't swim or were afraid of the swim - perfect candidates for the TI method.      

If you've really read "ALL" of the TI literature, you'll know that Terry has evolved and fine-tuned the TI method over the years. For example, de-emphasizing "pressing the buoy" and "swimming downhill" that were prominent in early editions of his book.  (I've always had the latest edition of the TI book because I loan copies to friends who never return them or who in turn loan them to someone else -  I've bought the darn thing about four times.  You're welcome, Terry.)

None of this is to say that TI is the-end all for swimming instruction, but I do think they've gotten an unfair rap over the years, not unlike some of the criticism that Jeff Galloway has gotten over his run/walk/run running method.  They are both training philosophies that will help get people off the couch and up in pursuit of a  healthier lifestyle.  So what's wrong with that?  It's like some folks are threatened by it or something.

I also think that as you start to swim at higher tempos, the basic TI stroke starts to morph into something that has more in common with other "high-performance" techniques.  For example, the amount of 'glide' naturally decreases as turnover increases, serving to reduce or eliminate the deceleration between pulls.  Having studied swim technique going back to Doc Counsilman's "The Science of Swimming" back in the late '60's, I've got a hypothesis that most swim techniques will asymptotically approach some "perfect" technique if allowed to develop over time.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to work with Sheila Taormina since this past June.  Sheila and Terry have had their sparring matches in the past, and there are some distinct fundamental differences in what they teach.  I've had to "unlearn"  and "relearn" some things with Sheila, but at the same time a good deal of what I'm doing in the pool traces back to balance and positioning fundamentals I got from TI.   In the long run I think most swimmers will end up developing a unique style and technique that best fits their needs. 

Mark

 

Very well said, Mark.  You are fortunate to have a fairly unique perspective.  Not that many AG triathletes have had the experience of working with two of the top swimming experts in our sport.  Now, spend some time with Dave Luscan, and you'll be able to write your own book and give lectures to help AGers navigate the world of swim coaching.  

Dave, Mark alludes to something that's an unintentional secret within the coaching world.  TI's methodologies have evolved considerably over the years, thanks in part to Terry having lieutenants like Suzanne who are always seeking better ways to do things.  That combined with TI's past success with their beginner material and a focus on ebooks instead of printed books in recent years (there aren't any printed books that present the current methodologies for more advanced swimmers) has resulted in TI having a reputation that doesn't really match what they do anymore.  The reference you made to TI only teaching a catch-up style of stroke rather than exploring what's best for the individual is the greatest example of the reputation not matching what they currently do.  I'd love to be a fly on the wall with you and she discussing swimming.  From what I know of her knowledge and how she does things, and what I've seen of your experience and philosophy based on discussions online, I'm confident that you'd agree on 95% of the approach for advanced swimmers.  Hearing the conversation about the 5% of differences would be fascinating and educational as heII.

 

LOL.  Don, if you can get Suzanne and Dave down here to Sarasota we'll go out with Sheila and I'll spring for dinner & drinks.  I think it would be a great evening. 

Mark



2015-10-12 9:08 PM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
Originally posted by RedCorvette
LOL.  Don, if you can get Suzanne and Dave down here to Sarasota we'll go out with Sheila and I'll spring for dinner & drinks.  I think it would be a great evening. 

Mark




We should drink first...then talk swimming! Skip the swim talk and let's jsut go swim!
2015-10-12 11:03 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Boise, Idaho
Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

So, let me get this straight.....

After my CrossFit session, If I skim through a T1 book, and swim fast, taking no breaths at all, I can swim a sub :20 50yd  in the pool, which equates to an eloquent 3:48/100 in the rough, open water. 

Is that about it???

Geez, I'm going back to Political COJ where people can agree on things. 

 

2015-10-13 7:20 AM
in reply to: jeffnboise

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????

Originally posted by jeffnboise

So, let me get this straight.....

After my CrossFit session, If I skim through a T1 book, and swim fast, taking no breaths at all, I can swim a sub :20 50yd  in the pool, which equates to an eloquent 3:48/100 in the rough, open water. 

Is that about it???

Geez, I'm going back to Political COJ where people can agree on things. 

 

Forgot to flip turn.

2015-10-16 12:04 AM
in reply to: brigby1


471
1001001001002525
Subject: RE: Don't do these in triathlon swimming?????????
I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with some of the TI principles, but from a competitive swimming perspective it's not something a swimmer wanting to improve their performance, should pay much attention to. Just looking at a few videos, one of the fundamental flaws with TI is the glide and low stroke rate. This video below really exemplifies why excessive glide is bad. I say excessive glide, because it's virtually impossible to eliminate any form of glide. Even Sun Yang, who has awesome technique, glides, albeit for about 0.2 of a second. Watch the underwater footage, he extends his lead arm and instead of initiating the catch and pull straight away, he leaves it there for a good second. If you watch as the arm extends and remains there his whole body decelerates, he goes into his catch and pull and accelerates again, then glides and decelerates. I don't see this as an efficient way of swimming at all. The only positive word I can use to describe it, is graceful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJpFVvho0o4

This one below is really bad. He decelerates fairly significantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

Try swimming like that in the open ocean with wind and swell and you'd probably sink.
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