General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Power of Ironman name Rss Feed  
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2015-11-02 12:21 PM

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Subject: Power of Ironman name

So the 70.3 and 140.6 Challenge event in Atlantic City last year had about 1000 participants total. This year Ironman moved in and it is now IMAC only offering 70.3 distance.

It's the same coarse, same RD, basically the same exact event but with the Ironman name.

Registration opened at noon today and they in the first hour they already have over 1000 registered for the event. All because of the Ironman name!

(yes I signed up, but did it last year too.)


2015-11-02 12:42 PM
in reply to: mike761


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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
The same thing here in Ohio. The Rev3/Challenge Cedar Point has been going on for years. The race has been successful but doesnt get the buzz that the new Ironman Ohio 70.3 has gotten. I too signed up but more due to the amount of teammates/friends than the IM name.
2015-11-02 1:42 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

I'm guilty, signed up early as a matter of fact.  But in my defense I was planning on going back when it was CAC.

2015-11-02 1:42 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

And I guess the opposite effect is also true.  Challenge takes over the Penticton race from the WTC some years ago which was one of those instant sellouts...and now they get less than 200 participants for the individual full and less than 400 for the individual half.

The numbers don't lie.  The masses flock to or from races based on the Ironman name.

2015-11-02 1:55 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Originally posted by Jason N

And I guess the opposite effect is also true.  Challenge takes over the Penticton race from the WTC some years ago which was one of those instant sellouts...and now they get less than 200 participants for the individual full and less than 400 for the individual half.

The numbers don't lie.  The masses flock to or from races based on the Ironman name.

That's part of it but location also hurt them.  When it was Ironman Canada, it had no equal.  I don't think Challenge expected WTC to come back at them with the Whistler race as soon as they did.  Penticton is a fun course but there's not a lot of other stuff to do there.  Whistler has way more stuff for family / friends and better places to stay, not to mention being an easier drive from the big metro areas.

I agree the Ironman brand has an effect.  But if this situation were reversed and Challenge set up the Whistler race, I think you'd see more competitive numbers.

2015-11-02 2:45 PM
in reply to: mike761


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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
That's interesting.
Triathletes that do 140.6 are on another level and I have no intentions to follow.
I don't care what name you put on it.

Way off topic but I'm still amazed how popular OCR has become.
I'm even debating between the Wildman Tri or BattleFrog here in Florida scheduled same day.

One problem is I have a few friends that do OCRs but don't know anybody that tris.
I wonder if triathletes are ever swayed by this or save it for off season fun.


2015-11-02 3:23 PM
in reply to: runtim23

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
Originally posted by runtim23

That's interesting.
Triathletes that do 140.6 are on another level and I have no intentions to follow.
I don't care what name you put on it.

Way off topic but I'm still amazed how popular OCR has become.
I'm even debating between the Wildman Tri or BattleFrog here in Florida scheduled same day.

One problem is I have a few friends that do OCRs but don't know anybody that tris.
I wonder if triathletes are ever swayed by this or save it for off season fun.


OCR = Obstacle Course Racing?
That does seem to be a lot more popular in the last few years.
2015-11-02 3:26 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

I've never been an M-dot fanboy, nor have I been a hater, but as time goes on, I'm more inclined to avoid WTC and support their competitors.  I really enjoyed IMFL when I raced it, but IMO, the experience wasn't any better than my two favorite HIM's - Musselman and Savageman.  Plus, what I've seen and heard of a lot of the other options when I've coached athletes for other races, there are some great races out there for less money that have more customer friendly practices.

I guess that's my long winded way of saying I don't get it.

 

2015-11-02 9:28 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
You could maybe say that Ironman is the Apple of triathlon. I see lots of similarities of how they work and operate as a company. Neither created anything knew, they just do it very well and in a way to have the consumers buy one product and come back for more, kinda like a lifestyle.

People don't buy Apple products because of what they provide, because many other companies provide the same exact products. Apple wasn't the first mp3 player, but they created the iPod, then everything changed. Ironman (WTC) wasn't the first 140.6 race, but they did create Kona and then everything changed. They don't even create all of the races they have. some they just buy the license. But you ask why people race Ironman and it's a clear distinction.

If anyone has read Simon Sinek's "Start with Why" he explains a good reasoning why many people gravitate to Ironman races, just sub Apple for Ironman.

On another note as much crap as everyone gives WTC, they have really cleaned up their product the past few years. They have realized some mistakes that have made, improved others, etc. Are they perfect? No, Are they improving? I would say yes.

The online community seems to be against WTC or maybe its 50/50, but that shows how small the online community really is.

2015-11-02 10:01 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Vineman was a IM distance race one could wait to sign up for until just before the event, which was really nice as you could wait to see if you could get past an injury, etc..  This year, because WTC  is taking it over and because of the power of the Ironman name, I will be signing up as soon as registration opens as I fear this one will fill up quickly.

2015-11-03 6:52 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
Originally posted by bcagle25

You could maybe say that Ironman is the Apple of triathlon. I see lots of similarities of how they work and operate as a company. Neither created anything knew, they just do it very well and in a way to have the consumers buy one product and come back for more, kinda like a lifestyle.

People don't buy Apple products because of what they provide, because many other companies provide the same exact products. Apple wasn't the first mp3 player, but they created the iPod, then everything changed. Ironman (WTC) wasn't the first 140.6 race, but they did create Kona and then everything changed. They don't even create all of the races they have. some they just buy the license. But you ask why people race Ironman and it's a clear distinction.

If anyone has read Simon Sinek's "Start with Why" he explains a good reasoning why many people gravitate to Ironman races, just sub Apple for Ironman.

On another note as much crap as everyone gives WTC, they have really cleaned up their product the past few years. They have realized some mistakes that have made, improved others, etc. Are they perfect? No, Are they improving? I would say yes.

The online community seems to be against WTC or maybe its 50/50, but that shows how small the online community really is.




I'm neither for or against WTC, I've raced both WTC and non-WTC events the difference I see mostly is the amount of people in the event. I like to see non-WTC events so that there is some competition and a reason to improve. Others also put on the event at much lower cost which if there are enough around can help keep WTC honest. They charge a lot more money for a very similar event. Probably the only real issue I have with WTC is that they price gouge a bit, other than that they put on a great event.

Just surprising to me that an event that is the same exact venue as last year, with the same RD just added the Ironman name and is charging $100 more and sold more spots in the first hour then event had last year.


2015-11-03 9:05 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by bcagle25 You could maybe say that Ironman is the Apple of triathlon. I see lots of similarities of how they work and operate as a company. Neither created anything knew, they just do it very well and in a way to have the consumers buy one product and come back for more, kinda like a lifestyle. People don't buy Apple products because of what they provide, because many other companies provide the same exact products. Apple wasn't the first mp3 player, but they created the iPod, then everything changed. Ironman (WTC) wasn't the first 140.6 race, but they did create Kona and then everything changed. They don't even create all of the races they have. some they just buy the license. But you ask why people race Ironman and it's a clear distinction. If anyone has read Simon Sinek's "Start with Why" he explains a good reasoning why many people gravitate to Ironman races, just sub Apple for Ironman. On another note as much crap as everyone gives WTC, they have really cleaned up their product the past few years. They have realized some mistakes that have made, improved others, etc. Are they perfect? No, Are they improving? I would say yes. The online community seems to be against WTC or maybe its 50/50, but that shows how small the online community really is.
I'm neither for or against WTC, I've raced both WTC and non-WTC events the difference I see mostly is the amount of people in the event. I like to see non-WTC events so that there is some competition and a reason to improve. Others also put on the event at much lower cost which if there are enough around can help keep WTC honest. They charge a lot more money for a very similar event. Probably the only real issue I have with WTC is that they price gouge a bit, other than that they put on a great event. Just surprising to me that an event that is the same exact venue as last year, with the same RD just added the Ironman name and is charging $100 more and sold more spots in the first hour then event had last year.

Yeah, I feel similarly.  I won't say I'll never do another WTC event, but I will say that the $500 cancellation fee they charged me when I wasn't able to start IMMD this year because of my chronic lyme disease has left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

2015-11-03 9:18 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by bcagle25 You could maybe say that Ironman is the Apple of triathlon. I see lots of similarities of how they work and operate as a company. Neither created anything knew, they just do it very well and in a way to have the consumers buy one product and come back for more, kinda like a lifestyle. People don't buy Apple products because of what they provide, because many other companies provide the same exact products. Apple wasn't the first mp3 player, but they created the iPod, then everything changed. Ironman (WTC) wasn't the first 140.6 race, but they did create Kona and then everything changed. They don't even create all of the races they have. some they just buy the license. But you ask why people race Ironman and it's a clear distinction. If anyone has read Simon Sinek's "Start with Why" he explains a good reasoning why many people gravitate to Ironman races, just sub Apple for Ironman. On another note as much crap as everyone gives WTC, they have really cleaned up their product the past few years. They have realized some mistakes that have made, improved others, etc. Are they perfect? No, Are they improving? I would say yes. The online community seems to be against WTC or maybe its 50/50, but that shows how small the online community really is.
I'm neither for or against WTC, I've raced both WTC and non-WTC events the difference I see mostly is the amount of people in the event. I like to see non-WTC events so that there is some competition and a reason to improve. Others also put on the event at much lower cost which if there are enough around can help keep WTC honest. They charge a lot more money for a very similar event. Probably the only real issue I have with WTC is that they price gouge a bit, other than that they put on a great event. Just surprising to me that an event that is the same exact venue as last year, with the same RD just added the Ironman name and is charging $100 more and sold more spots in the first hour then event had last year.

Yeah, I feel similarly.  I won't say I'll never do another WTC event, but I will say that the $500 cancellation fee they charged me when I wasn't able to start IMMD this year because of my chronic lyme disease has left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

So you got a partial refund ?  Would that have been covered under the insurance?

2015-11-03 10:29 AM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
Originally posted by TTom

Vineman was a IM distance race one could wait to sign up for until just before the event, which was really nice as you could wait to see if you could get past an injury, etc..  This year, because WTC  is taking it over and because of the power of the Ironman name, I will be signing up as soon as registration opens as I fear this one will fill up quickly.




This is the thing that bugs me most about races being bought by WTC. When IMMD was ChesapeakeMan, you could register a few weeks out. Obviously you get other things with the IM brand, and I get that, and I know plenty of people who love racing Ironman. But laying down a lot of money a year in advance is not what I'm looking forward to when I decide to do the 140.6 distance.
2015-11-03 4:27 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by bcagle25 You could maybe say that Ironman is the Apple of triathlon. I see lots of similarities of how they work and operate as a company. Neither created anything knew, they just do it very well and in a way to have the consumers buy one product and come back for more, kinda like a lifestyle. People don't buy Apple products because of what they provide, because many other companies provide the same exact products. Apple wasn't the first mp3 player, but they created the iPod, then everything changed. Ironman (WTC) wasn't the first 140.6 race, but they did create Kona and then everything changed. They don't even create all of the races they have. some they just buy the license. But you ask why people race Ironman and it's a clear distinction. If anyone has read Simon Sinek's "Start with Why" he explains a good reasoning why many people gravitate to Ironman races, just sub Apple for Ironman. On another note as much crap as everyone gives WTC, they have really cleaned up their product the past few years. They have realized some mistakes that have made, improved others, etc. Are they perfect? No, Are they improving? I would say yes. The online community seems to be against WTC or maybe its 50/50, but that shows how small the online community really is.
I'm neither for or against WTC, I've raced both WTC and non-WTC events the difference I see mostly is the amount of people in the event. I like to see non-WTC events so that there is some competition and a reason to improve. Others also put on the event at much lower cost which if there are enough around can help keep WTC honest. They charge a lot more money for a very similar event. Probably the only real issue I have with WTC is that they price gouge a bit, other than that they put on a great event. Just surprising to me that an event that is the same exact venue as last year, with the same RD just added the Ironman name and is charging $100 more and sold more spots in the first hour then event had last year.

Yeah, I feel similarly.  I won't say I'll never do another WTC event, but I will say that the $500 cancellation fee they charged me when I wasn't able to start IMMD this year because of my chronic lyme disease has left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

So you got a partial refund ?  Would that have been covered under the insurance?

They charged me $500, and refunded $150 of the $650 registration.  I believe it would have been covered if I'd bought the insurance for another $100+ (IIRC).

2015-11-03 6:06 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by bcagle25 You could maybe say that Ironman is the Apple of triathlon. I see lots of similarities of how they work and operate as a company. Neither created anything knew, they just do it very well and in a way to have the consumers buy one product and come back for more, kinda like a lifestyle. People don't buy Apple products because of what they provide, because many other companies provide the same exact products. Apple wasn't the first mp3 player, but they created the iPod, then everything changed. Ironman (WTC) wasn't the first 140.6 race, but they did create Kona and then everything changed. They don't even create all of the races they have. some they just buy the license. But you ask why people race Ironman and it's a clear distinction. If anyone has read Simon Sinek's "Start with Why" he explains a good reasoning why many people gravitate to Ironman races, just sub Apple for Ironman. On another note as much crap as everyone gives WTC, they have really cleaned up their product the past few years. They have realized some mistakes that have made, improved others, etc. Are they perfect? No, Are they improving? I would say yes. The online community seems to be against WTC or maybe its 50/50, but that shows how small the online community really is.
I'm neither for or against WTC, I've raced both WTC and non-WTC events the difference I see mostly is the amount of people in the event. I like to see non-WTC events so that there is some competition and a reason to improve. Others also put on the event at much lower cost which if there are enough around can help keep WTC honest. They charge a lot more money for a very similar event. Probably the only real issue I have with WTC is that they price gouge a bit, other than that they put on a great event. Just surprising to me that an event that is the same exact venue as last year, with the same RD just added the Ironman name and is charging $100 more and sold more spots in the first hour then event had last year.

Yeah, I feel similarly.  I won't say I'll never do another WTC event, but I will say that the $500 cancellation fee they charged me when I wasn't able to start IMMD this year because of my chronic lyme disease has left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

So you got a partial refund ?  Would that have been covered under the insurance?

They charged me $500, and refunded $150 of the $650 registration.  I believe it would have been covered if I'd bought the insurance for another $100+ (IIRC).

I buy the insurance for the more expensive races since I tend to hurt myself training off LC. Since I used it once I worry about it being considered chronic and then not covered. I feel your oak on losing the reg fee. I lost one in '13 by not buying the insurance. That's the one thing I really don't like about racing. Signing up a year in advance and then hoping I'm not injured. Or paying for insurance and then hoping you lose that.


2015-11-03 6:15 PM
in reply to: #5150308

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
I think the same phenomenon exists for any brand name. I only race sprints in the Boston area, so WTC isn't a factor. But there's a regional race company that's slowly taking over a lot of the local races, and each time it happens you see attendance jump and sometimes sell outs. To be fair, they do put on a good race, but I think the name recognition plays a big role.
2015-11-04 7:40 AM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Jason N

And I guess the opposite effect is also true.  Challenge takes over the Penticton race from the WTC some years ago which was one of those instant sellouts...and now they get less than 200 participants for the individual full and less than 400 for the individual half.

The numbers don't lie.  The masses flock to or from races based on the Ironman name.

That's part of it but location also hurt them.  When it was Ironman Canada, it had no equal.  I don't think Challenge expected WTC to come back at them with the Whistler race as soon as they did.  Penticton is a fun course but there's not a lot of other stuff to do there.  Whistler has way more stuff for family / friends and better places to stay, not to mention being an easier drive from the big metro areas.

I agree the Ironman brand has an effect.  But if this situation were reversed and Challenge set up the Whistler race, I think you'd see more competitive numbers.

Some make the mistake of underestimating the Ironman brand.  You're making the mistake of overestimating the Challenge brand.

I do agree that location has a lot to do with it but it's location plus the race org that completely sells it.  I did IMC-Whistler twice.  I never had any desire to do IMC when it was in Penticton.  Whistler is an awesome place and that sold me.  That being said, the Ironman brand name solidified it.  if it was Challenge Whistler I would not have been there in 2013 or 2014 or ever.  I'm not the only one that thinks like this and I'm not a complete honk for the IM brand.

Look at was has happened with the Atlantic City race.  Within driving distance of 100,000,000 people in the most densely populated part of North America and Challenge could only muster 150 people for the full and 550 for the half this year.  Ironman takes over the exact same HIM race and they went over 2000 registrations in two days, and will probably sell out all 2750 spots in less than a week.  If they decide to do a full IM in AC (which I suspect they will in 2017), it also sells out quickly.  So IM could effectively have 5,500 registrants for the same exact set of races to which Challenge could only pull 700.  Add the way more isolated and less populated west coast USA/Canada and places like Whistler and Penticton become less appealing without a M-Dot logo attached.  Ironman Canada would sell well no matter where it is located... because it has the IM name.  People aren't traveling to do Challenge races.  They just aren't.  Look at the start list for Challenge Penticton and Challenge Atlantic City.  It's very, very regional.  I think IMC-Whistler is 60-70% Americans.  Challenge Penticton is 10% Americans, 70% BC Canadians, and 20% other Canadians.  It would be the same amount of Americans if it were in Whistler.  The Challenge AC start list is overwhelmingly northeastern US athletes. and very few travelers outside the few hours driving radius.

2015-11-06 11:01 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

90% sold out according to the email I got this morning.

2015-11-06 3:49 PM
in reply to: Fourteenkittens

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name
I think part of it is the convenience of finding the races. Go to the IM site and POOF, there is every race available, with dates and working registration buttons.

The independents need to do a better job of marketing their races outside of their local communities. I've tried web searches or the "TriFind" website and they miss events that I know are taking place. (And don't get me started on the mess the Rev3 website was post challenge split)
2015-11-12 3:11 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Completely forgot, as of yesterday SOLD OUT

so what did that take, 9 days?  Little more if you count the club pre registration. 



Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2015-11-12 3:12 PM


2015-11-13 1:50 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Power of Ironman name

Last year was my bucket list to do my first 140.6. I planned only to do one race and then go back to shorter races. I wanted IM because of what I heard about how professional the races are. And I also wanted to hear..."You are a Ironman".

I picked Louisville and the experience was awesome. Had some problems on the run and my wife talked me into doing B2B a couple of months later. B2B was great as well.

Both races were well done and exceeded my expectations.

I think some people are like me and want the IM brand for their bucket list race.

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