General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2015-11-22 8:56 AM


45
25
Subject: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
Hi

I am preparing for full distance Ironman which will be next year in July

Currently where I am sometimes it is not possible to ride outdoors due to winter & pollution levels. However when I do ride outside it can range from 6 to 8 hours including hills

When using the indoor trainer, in order to substitute for the long ride outdoors I have been doing 3 hour sessions, for now I am trying to maintain cadence of 90. last session I increased it to 4 hours. Next looking to go for 5. It is a new programme I am trying out, focussing on building volume at the beginning.
I been reading some articles online, a lot say should only be doing 2 hours max. However for building volume and preparing for long distances, I do not see a choice but to go for long hours, especially if the weather does not permit you to cycle outside. Unless I am wrong?


2015-11-22 7:01 PM
in reply to: casebusy

User image

Regular
585
500252525
Pueblo, Colorado
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
You can definitely build some volume with longer training rides. I would wonder if there's a benefit beyond 3 hours or so. It sounds like doing shorter, more intense rides is counter to the new training plan that you're trying out however.
2015-11-22 11:46 PM
in reply to: tedjohn


45
25
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
I also use the indoor on a weekday, usually do an intense session then.
2015-11-23 7:37 AM
in reply to: casebusy

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

Originally posted by casebusy Hi I am preparing for full distance Ironman which will be next year in July Currently where I am sometimes it is not possible to ride outdoors due to winter & pollution levels. However when I do ride outside it can range from 6 to 8 hours including hills When using the indoor trainer, in order to substitute for the long ride outdoors I have been doing 3 hour sessions, for now I am trying to maintain cadence of 90. last session I increased it to 4 hours. Next looking to go for 5. It is a new programme I am trying out, focussing on building volume at the beginning. I been reading some articles online, a lot say should only be doing 2 hours max. However for building volume and preparing for long distances, I do not see a choice but to go for long hours, especially if the weather does not permit you to cycle outside. Unless I am wrong?

What intensity level are these long trainer rides?  Cadence doesn't tell us very much.  Volume for the sake of volume is not necessarily the most efficient way to train.  I would focus on increasing your critical power on the bike rather than just logging many hours at what could be an intensity level that does not provide a very effective training stimulus.  I'm not saying your training is a waste of time (don't have enough info for that) but perhaps it could be a lot more efficient...but without knowing a little more detail about your sessions its hard to say.

2015-11-23 8:24 AM
in reply to: casebusy

User image


19

Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
I feel like 3 hours is the perfect duration for IM prep on the trainer, as long as those 3 hours are productive. 3 hours spent between zones 2 and 4 on the trainer is equivalent to a 4-5 hour endurance spin out on the road. It's great to get a handful of 5-6 hour rides in out on the road before your race, but for some, riding out on the road just isn't feasible this time of year and doing trainer rides of this duration can yield little benefit for many athletes as they are simply too long and deter motivation. Remember, structure is more important than volume. Training smart is more important than training long.
2015-11-23 9:33 AM
in reply to: Birkierunner

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Originally posted by casebusy Hi I am preparing for full distance Ironman which will be next year in July Currently where I am sometimes it is not possible to ride outdoors due to winter & pollution levels. However when I do ride outside it can range from 6 to 8 hours including hills When using the indoor trainer, in order to substitute for the long ride outdoors I have been doing 3 hour sessions, for now I am trying to maintain cadence of 90. last session I increased it to 4 hours. Next looking to go for 5. It is a new programme I am trying out, focussing on building volume at the beginning. I been reading some articles online, a lot say should only be doing 2 hours max. However for building volume and preparing for long distances, I do not see a choice but to go for long hours, especially if the weather does not permit you to cycle outside. Unless I am wrong?

What intensity level are these long trainer rides?  Cadence doesn't tell us very much.  Volume for the sake of volume is not necessarily the most efficient way to train.  I would focus on increasing your critical power on the bike rather than just logging many hours at what could be an intensity level that does not provide a very effective training stimulus.  I'm not saying your training is a waste of time (don't have enough info for that) but perhaps it could be a lot more efficient...but without knowing a little more detail about your sessions its hard to say.

Agreed, need to know more. Cadence isn't really useful at all for intensity.

Trevor also brought up getting a lot of 2-3 hr rides. Those have been very good for me too. Can fit a number of bigger block intervals (15-30') in these at a fairly strong intensity (high Z3 into mid Z4). And it's possible to repeat this several times a week. Longer 5-6 hr rides come more easily when you learn how to regularly punish yourself with these.



2015-11-23 8:15 PM
in reply to: Birkierunner


45
25
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
hello again

thanks for the response.

so as it is winter where I am, and not suitable to ride out side I do 2 sessions per week on the indoor trainer. Tuesday and Saturday.

On the tuesday I usually do an intense one. So it could be an interval, but each interval will last 10 minutes, the watts will range from 150 to 200 depending on how strong/weak i feel. i then just continue with normal cycling to make it 2 hours. Or to make things different I will do a sufferfest video

Saturdays is where I go for 3 hours, 4 hour session I only did once. To be completely honest Saturdays I feel tired/weak on the indoor trainer. It is really weak. So we are talking watts of 50 or 60 and cadence of 90. I may change gear later to make it slightly harder. The average heart rate is 140 bpm, which is the aim for now. However I am thinking the weakness could be down to the long rides i had outside prior to the winter. They ranged from 6 to 9 hours with lots of hills and my body was not use to it.
It is the beginning of the season for me. Good news is that I have the whole season ahead of me to prepare.

I have attached a plan, if you have time to take a quick look I would really appreciate your opinion

cheers






Attachments
----------------
TRY3_Gheis_W1,W2 & W3.xlsx (798KB - 36 downloads)
2015-11-24 9:20 AM
in reply to: casebusy

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

How are you selecting any of the hr or power values?

2015-11-24 7:48 PM
in reply to: brigby1


45
25
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
right now regarding the heart rate, the focus is to just keep it 140 or below. I am following a programme given to me by a tri coach. What I am being told now is to focus on volume. So instead of increasing intensity for a 2 or 3 hour session, right now the point is not to increase intensity and add maybe another hour on the trainer.
The intensity and power will come later. So in a nutshell put all hours in at the beginning and then concentrate on intensity/power/intervals
something new for me, never tried it, hopefully it will improve

2015-11-25 7:40 AM
in reply to: casebusy

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

Originally posted by casebusy right now regarding the heart rate, the focus is to just keep it 140 or below. I am following a programme given to me by a tri coach. What I am being told now is to focus on volume. So instead of increasing intensity for a 2 or 3 hour session, right now the point is not to increase intensity and add maybe another hour on the trainer. The intensity and power will come later. So in a nutshell put all hours in at the beginning and then concentrate on intensity/power/intervals something new for me, never tried it, hopefully it will improve

Does your personal schedule force you to have only 2 rides per week?  Are you paying this coach or is he/she a friend that provided free information?  I have some very strong feelings on this approach to training but I'm not going to comment here if you are being coached.

2015-11-25 5:48 PM
in reply to: casebusy

User image

Extreme Veteran
1175
1000100252525
Langley, BC, 'Wet Coast' Canada
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
Re : the programme you are trying now -- Is it one you found? From a coach? Self-developed?

I ask because, over the past few years in my learning curve, I have discovered that one successful school of thought on cycling-training follows a reverse of the idea of long rides and volume working towards shorter rides with more intensity nearing race season approach.

This idea is that over the winter months one wants to build the ability to hold a higher level of 1-hour power ( search here and on google for FTP -Functional Threshold Power) This is done with generally shorter sessions with more intensity, and then as you near race season, then you build more towards being able to maintain that higher power (that you created over the winter) for longer duration. This follows the principle of training from 'general' to 'specific' , general being higher fitness/power/ability, and specific meaning the ability to hold that power in races.

If this is all old-hat to you, I apologize.



2015-11-25 6:48 PM
in reply to: casebusy


45
25
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
Basically I joined a tri club 3 months ago, I only pay the coach for run and swim lessons. The programme he wrote and the bike sessions we go out on (when we can cycle) are free. during all the 3 activities he is constantly watching and giving feedback. One of the great things about the cycling is that we can always change things round if necessary, which saves going to get a fitting.

The programme is totally suited towards me personally. Taking into account injuries and what I can do

when I watch him he is very powerful, so my logic was to follow what he says in order to improve.
he is very passionate about coaching, and also is in the process of turning me into a running coach (free), I just have to do my homework :-)


The last year I was focussing on FTPs and Watts/Intensity. there was Improvement on flat roads but not so much on the hills. I guess best way for that is to actually climb hills. Only other alternative is something similar on a trainer where you increase watts and change gear to make it tougher





2015-11-28 11:39 AM
in reply to: trevorderuise

User image


47
25
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

Originally posted by trevorderuise I feel like 3 hours is the perfect duration for IM prep on the trainer, as long as those 3 hours are productive. 3 hours spent between zones 2 and 4 on the trainer is equivalent to a 4-5 hour endurance spin out on the road. It's great to get a handful of 5-6 hour rides in out on the road before your race, but for some, riding out on the road just isn't feasible this time of year and doing trainer rides of this duration can yield little benefit for many athletes as they are simply too long and deter motivation. Remember, structure is more important than volume. Training smart is more important than training long.

Agreed. Within those three hours you can really get A LOT of great work done to get maximum training benefits. There's a zillion ways to do it, but one option would be to do something like 2 sets of 20-15-10-5 min with 5 min recovery, and the effort is moderate for the longer intervals but quite intense for the shortest. You would need to adapt this to your current fitness level, but imagine doing that, or maybe even adding a third set for a ~3.5 hour ride - you'll get yourself tired, no question. 

And you'll get work in at around race intensity, around FTP, and slightly above FTP. 

Sorry if I'm rambling :P But in short, the bulk of your long rides can very well stay in the 3 hour range as long as you structure them well.

 

 

2015-11-28 5:35 PM
in reply to: casebusy

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
Originally posted by casebusy

Hi

I am preparing for full distance Ironman which will be next year in July

Currently where I am sometimes it is not possible to ride outdoors due to winter & pollution levels. However when I do ride outside it can range from 6 to 8 hours including hills

When using the indoor trainer, in order to substitute for the long ride outdoors I have been doing 3 hour sessions, for now I am trying to maintain cadence of 90. last session I increased it to 4 hours. Next looking to go for 5. It is a new programme I am trying out, focussing on building volume at the beginning.
I been reading some articles online, a lot say should only be doing 2 hours max. However for building volume and preparing for long distances, I do not see a choice but to go for long hours, especially if the weather does not permit you to cycle outside. Unless I am wrong?


From a sustainability and durability standpoint you could focus on...

Consistent and frequent training sessions of 60-90 minutes. Mostly easy, sometimes hard. Ironman is an aerobic sport, but you don't need to build massive volume in one session, rather build your volume through the week and month...by being frequent and consistent.

What is your definition of volume?

Time?
Training load?
Mileage?
2015-11-30 2:03 AM
in reply to: bcagle25


45
25
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
definition of volume is putting in the time, the hours. base training

I've had numerous discussions regarding this, the majority are agreeing with all of what you have said in this post.

There are still some good athletes who believe in putting in the hours, I spoke to one person who completed the Kona race this year. He was spending around 4 or 5 hours on the trainer. He said for a race that is going to be over 10 hours, you need to put the time in. I guess what also needs to be taken into consideration is the legs need to be able to take the punishment.
However its different views for everybody.

here is a very interesting short video regarding base training which supports your argument

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTuaxOGdeXU

2015-11-30 9:35 AM
in reply to: casebusy

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

Originally posted by casebusy definition of volume is putting in the time, the hours. base training I've had numerous discussions regarding this, the majority are agreeing with all of what you have said in this post. There are still some good athletes who believe in putting in the hours, I spoke to one person who completed the Kona race this year. He was spending around 4 or 5 hours on the trainer. He said for a race that is going to be over 10 hours, you need to put the time in. I guess what also needs to be taken into consideration is the legs need to be able to take the punishment. However its different views for everybody. here is a very interesting short video regarding base training which supports your argument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTuaxOGdeXU

You're still misunderstanding what is being said. You're only looking at time through singular workouts, as in matching up a ride yo how long the race will be. To do well there are other aspects that should be worked on too. Especially farther out. Volume in either meaning is still only part of a solid training program. Your posts are saying it's the only thing, and on top of that, thinking only of individual large workouts.



2015-11-30 10:06 AM
in reply to: casebusy

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

Agree with most of points others are making.  Your goal isn't to build volume, but to build fitness.  And to build fitness, you don't really need to be doing any 3+ hour rides for the next several months (although doing some can be useful, so certainly mix some in if you have the opportunity).  Once you get closer to your race (2-3 months), you will have to go for long hours.  For now, long hours are only one option to build your fitness.  And probably not the most effective given the constraints you have outlined.

2015-11-30 12:27 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

User image

Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Agree with most of points others are making.  Your goal isn't to build volume, but to build fitness.  And to build fitness, you don't really need to be doing any 3+ hour rides for the next several months (although doing some can be useful, so certainly mix some in if you have the opportunity).  Once you get closer to your race (2-3 months), you will have to go for long hours.  For now, long hours are only one option to build your fitness.  And probably not the most effective given the constraints you have outlined.

Bingo to the bolded.  As Johnny also mentions, closer to the race you will focus on the race specific needs (longer duration), but for now your goal is fitness.  Fitness is a result of increased training load, and training load is a product of time (volume) and intensity.  Your best bang for your buck is to mix in a combination of both volume and intensity.  Because you are far out from your IM race at this point, most feel it's best to sway on the side of more intensity in that it simply allows you to accomplish the same amount of training load in less time.  Especially when it comes to the bike that is low impact and injury concerns are not great with tons of intensity as compared to running.

Most of us have jobs, family, friends, and other obligations.  Hard to get away with training big hours all year round, so only put in the big hours when you need it (closer to the race).

2015-11-30 3:41 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by casebusy definition of volume is putting in the time, the hours. base training I've had numerous discussions regarding this, the majority are agreeing with all of what you have said in this post. There are still some good athletes who believe in putting in the hours, I spoke to one person who completed the Kona race this year. He was spending around 4 or 5 hours on the trainer. He said for a race that is going to be over 10 hours, you need to put the time in. I guess what also needs to be taken into consideration is the legs need to be able to take the punishment. However its different views for everybody. here is a very interesting short video regarding base training which supports your argument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTuaxOGdeXU

You're still misunderstanding what is being said. You're only looking at time through singular workouts, as in matching up a ride yo how long the race will be. To do well there are other aspects that should be worked on too. Especially farther out. Volume in either meaning is still only part of a solid training program. Your posts are saying it's the only thing, and on top of that, thinking only of individual large workouts.




x2. It's not a singular workouts, its to accumulation of all the workouts, your workload.

You spoke to one person, that says the long stuff worked for him. That was ONE person. He said you need to put the time in, I agree, but how you do it is variable since we as humans are all very variable.

I have seen FAR more people have success that are frequent and consistent in training and not have the epic big sessions that others do versus those that are the weekend warriors that slack off during the week.

Hell one of my athletes biggest runs this year going into IM was 9 miles....yes only 9 miles. The volume wasn't built within a singular session, but the accumulation of many sessions. The result a massive run PR and just missing out on top 10 AG.

Edited by bcagle25 2015-11-30 3:45 PM
2015-11-30 7:53 PM
in reply to: casebusy


45
25
Subject: RE: Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer
I do not disagree with anything said here, in fact it all makes sense.

maybe I have misunderstood and slightly gone off the mark.

My original take on this was to build the fitness/endurance/volume at the beginning which is now. Not to repeat it through out the coming months. the race is July 30th which is still way ahead, 8 months. my thoughts were to do the volume now and maybe in few weeks is when I start doing the intensity sessions and then near to the race like you all said do the volume again. The training plan will always change to suit needs.
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Building Volume Using Indoor Trainer Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

using a power tap outdoors after using it indoors

Started by SEADOCHA
Views: 892 Posts: 4

2012-03-01 7:13 PM brigby1

Using trainer for bike miles through IM training

Started by workerbee
Views: 1285 Posts: 6

2009-08-21 9:06 AM Coldfire

oly to HIM volume

Started by JoshKaptur
Views: 1219 Posts: 12

2007-06-07 1:56 PM gadzinm

Tapering volume

Started by KenyonTri
Views: 949 Posts: 2

2007-03-31 3:24 PM pfusc

Beginner Training volume for an IM

Started by sandyigood
Views: 1376 Posts: 4

2007-02-07 11:35 AM JohnnyKay
RELATED ARTICLES
date : January 25, 2012
author : FitWerx
comments : 0
This article will discuss the differences between TrainerRoad and PowerTap's power numbers and how to best use each of them.
 
date : November 28, 2011
author : juliapurr
comments : 0
Bored out of your mind or watching a movie? Amp it up on the bike trainer.
date : November 5, 2010
author : FitWerx
comments : 0
Do you struggle to hold your power output indoors versus outdoors? The keys to this problem are due to lack of cooling and the flywheel effect.
 
date : December 28, 2008
author : mat steinmetz
comments : 1
Tired of your bike trainer already? Here are two indoor bike trainer workouts that you can use to keep things interesting while keeping your cycling fitness up.
date : December 3, 2008
author : dexter
comments : 15
What are rollers? How can rollers help your bike training? Learn how to use your first set of rollers without doing too much bodily harm to yourself.
 
date : April 1, 2008
author : trvw
comments : 0
The challenge? The accomplishment? I want to do this because it is an opportunity to live life. The event is an indoor sprint triathlon. I get to experience the challenge on a safer scale.
date : September 1, 2004
author : TriSports.com
comments : 0
As the Holiday season approaches and temperatures steadily drop, triathletes become faced with a difficult decision, to ride or not to ride.