General Discussion Triathlon Talk » My swim video for peer review Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2015-12-10 1:12 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review

Originally posted by RedCorvette

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster

Everyone loves using this "young girl fast swimmers have no power" as a refutation of power, and it's a simply incorrect assumption.

 

Power is not just sheer strength - it is force over time. Alistair brownlee and all the other top ITU guys swim hellaciously fast, and have arms/backs so small that it's unlikely that they can benchpress more than 150 lbs once. 

 

But ask those competitive swimmer girls how much they are swimming and how hard they swim during those swim practices. It's going to be a lot. There is no good swim program that omits either of these two factors. That translates to power. Attention to technique is there, but bottom line, volume+intensity = power, same as running and cycling and any other endurance sport.

 

And yes, these girls have a lot of it for swimming.  

This is flat wrong.  Running and cycling are not even close in terms of technique being a component of being faster.  That is specific to swimming.  There is no doubt that more volume and more intensity will help with swimming.  But when there are fundamental flaws in technique they must be taken care of. Nobody swims fast without a good catch......it's an absolute basic fundamental.  If you want to compare it to running it would be like not lifting your knees. You can run without doing it, but you'll never be fast.

I would also make the argument that you can't build swimming-specific strength without good technique.  In particular, a good arm pull follows a unique curvilinear path that's hard to duplicate out of the water (though you can approximate it using stretch bands).  If you want to build a strong pull, then you have to do it correctly and recruit the muscles to move along the desired path, which they probably aren't used to doing.  It's all about specificity.  

Mark 

 

 

Yep.  To a great extent in swimming, fitness is dependent on technique, and technique is dependent on fitness.

BTW, the objective of swim training isn't development of power or strength.  It's the development of performance.  Performance is the result of maximizing propulsive force and lift while reducing drag.  Here's an excerpt from "FASTER - Demystifying the Science of Triathlon Speed:

 

So, LB is kind of right when he says that most triathletes don't know how to swim compared to competitive swimmers.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2015-12-10 1:37 PM


2015-12-10 1:18 PM
in reply to: aribloch

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review

From here:

"This is one of the single biggest coaching misunderstandings in triathlon. If the majority of swim training is focused on "metabolics," then you are overlooking where the biggest gains in efficiency come from in swimming – the technique or the neuromuscular efficiency of the stroke movement."

" Overcoming drag through a more efficient movement/body position in the water is more important than training zones. I refer to it as training "technique under load," or swimming high intensity, short repeats while focusing on technique. In my experience, this is the best way to make triathletes more efficient in the water. Let me be clear, this is not an either/or proposition; I do consider metabolics, but is not the primary driver. The main focus is always, "How do we make the stroke more efficient?" "

These are not cupcake workouts he's giving them either.

2015-12-10 6:13 PM
in reply to: 0

User image


538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
1) Not a high level swim expert (many guys here have more experience with that)
2) I have extracted much advice here and it has helped me
But one thing I did to work out that "high elbow" catch and pull issue was to swim fist drills. It woke me up REAL FAST how necessary it was and I often use it as a self-correct check kinda thing when swimming long sets or even open water to remind myself in case form starts to lag.

Edited by TJHammer 2015-12-10 6:14 PM
2015-12-10 6:56 PM
in reply to: aribloch

User image

Master
3205
20001000100100
ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
I read somewhere once that swimming was 100% technique. And 100% fitness.

I like that. The two are very hard to separate as you can see from the discussion here.

Better technique lets you swim more which helps you get more fit which lets you swim longer before your technique breaks down...... and on and on and on.

My entire swim workouts used to be 900-1000 yards. Now my warmup is 1000 yards. And I am nowhere near where I want to be. That is part of what makes it fun; making improvements in something that 'you' are not naturally good at through hard work and dedication.

For me, reading about swimming (books by Taormina or Laughlin, etc), watching videos, and occasionally taking a lesson have made a huge difference in understanding how I am supposed to swim.
2015-12-11 12:40 AM
in reply to: aribloch

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
2nd lap of the video (first lap didn't show wall pushoff so I'm not sure where to start timing/counting.

Numbers approximate

28 seconds for 2nd lap. 2 seconds of pushoff = 26 seconds of swimming. In that time you took 30 strokes. your tempo is ~ .86 sec/stroke. This is way too fast for your technique right now.

Focus on streamlining in your stroke...you have none of it right now. Improve the streamlining and you don't need as much propulsion/power to swim the same speed. Reducing drag (resistive forces) is a much lower energy cost than increasing power/propulsive forces. You can get faster either way ,but one hits a quick cieling.

practice pushing off the wall in streamline for as long as you can underwater as far as you can go. Go further each time without kicking and see i fyou can beat your prior distances. Feel how alignment and stillness allow you to go further, with less energy (aside from postural tone). Without kicking and stroking you can move through the water faster from a pushoff than you are currently swimming. Take that feeling of streamlining into your swim by SLOWING DOWN your stroke rate. your stroking at .86 seconds per stroke right now and each stroke is covering less than 2 1/2 feet. If you're more than 5' tall, that's less than half your height per stroke.

back to the numbers game:
.86 sec / stroke * 30 strokes + 2 sec pushoff = 28 seconds <--focus on rapid arm turnover and pulling as much water as you can
1.2 seconds/stroke * 22 strokes + 2 sec pushoff = 28 seconds. <-- focus on streamlining, posture and moving only as fast as you can dynamically maintain control

Same speed, way less energy in the 2nd example, and learnign things you can take back into a faster stroke rate when the time is right.


While you don't have a proper pull/catch even more than not moving you forward, it's slowing you down. Align & streamline first at a lower stroke rate. You'll save energy & swim further. Working on your "catch" is a long pursuit...if it were easy you wouldn't hear of swimmers still practicing it after years and years and years of swimming. But working on streamlining is easy to do...takes concentration and patience, but very little "effort". You do it every day standing up straight while walking or just standing at the bus stop...good postural control keeping you upright. Learn to take it to the water and maintain it through all stroke movements. Crawl before you walk, walk before you jog, jog before you run.

People like to jump right to the icing which is the catch/pull...but work on the cake first...streamlining, core control, body posture...it will pay big big dividends.
2015-12-11 12:57 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by TriMyBest



great photo. Keep in mind as well that this propulsive efficiency equation is not actually looking at the metabolic cost of the forward movement. Cycling is one of the most efficient forms of human transportation and it's only about 25% efficient. Running is about 22% and swimming...a mere 3-9% efficient.

So even the most skilled swimmers...the ones with the highest propulsive efficiency as described in this book excerpt...are still wasting over 90% of their metabolic energy as heat, CO2 and H20...not forward movement.




2015-12-11 6:28 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by AdventureBear

2nd lap of the video (first lap didn't show wall pushoff so I'm not sure where to start timing/counting.

Numbers approximate

28 seconds for 2nd lap. 2 seconds of pushoff = 26 seconds of swimming. In that time you took 30 strokes. your tempo is ~ .86 sec/stroke. This is way too fast for your technique right now.

Focus on streamlining in your stroke...you have none of it right now. Improve the streamlining and you don't need as much propulsion/power to swim the same speed. Reducing drag (resistive forces) is a much lower energy cost than increasing power/propulsive forces. You can get faster either way ,but one hits a quick cieling.

practice pushing off the wall in streamline for as long as you can underwater as far as you can go. Go further each time without kicking and see i fyou can beat your prior distances. Feel how alignment and stillness allow you to go further, with less energy (aside from postural tone). Without kicking and stroking you can move through the water faster from a pushoff than you are currently swimming. Take that feeling of streamlining into your swim by SLOWING DOWN your stroke rate. your stroking at .86 seconds per stroke right now and each stroke is covering less than 2 1/2 feet. If you're more than 5' tall, that's less than half your height per stroke.

back to the numbers game:
.86 sec / stroke * 30 strokes + 2 sec pushoff = 28 seconds <--focus on rapid arm turnover and pulling as much water as you can
1.2 seconds/stroke * 22 strokes + 2 sec pushoff = 28 seconds. <-- focus on streamlining, posture and moving only as fast as you can dynamically maintain control

Same speed, way less energy in the 2nd example, and learnign things you can take back into a faster stroke rate when the time is right.


While you don't have a proper pull/catch even more than not moving you forward, it's slowing you down. Align & streamline first at a lower stroke rate. You'll save energy & swim further. Working on your "catch" is a long pursuit...if it were easy you wouldn't hear of swimmers still practicing it after years and years and years of swimming. But working on streamlining is easy to do...takes concentration and patience, but very little "effort". You do it every day standing up straight while walking or just standing at the bus stop...good postural control keeping you upright. Learn to take it to the water and maintain it through all stroke movements. Crawl before you walk, walk before you jog, jog before you run.

People like to jump right to the icing which is the catch/pull...but work on the cake first...streamlining, core control, body posture...it will pay big big dividends.


Suzanne, thank you for providing useful information.
The one thing you hear about when intentionally slowing down stroke rate and trying to do more distance per stroke is people tend to end up gliding and creating other problems at the beginning of their stroke. What is your take on this ? Do you think people should avoid over-gliding ?

2015-12-11 6:41 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by wannabefaster

I read somewhere once that swimming was 100% technique. And 100% fitness.

I like that. The two are very hard to separate as you can see from the discussion here.

Better technique lets you swim more which helps you get more fit which lets you swim longer before your technique breaks down...... and on and on and on.

My entire swim workouts used to be 900-1000 yards. Now my warmup is 1000 yards. And I am nowhere near where I want to be. That is part of what makes it fun; making improvements in something that 'you' are not naturally good at through hard work and dedication.

For me, reading about swimming (books by Taormina or Laughlin, etc), watching videos, and occasionally taking a lesson have made a huge difference in understanding how I am supposed to swim.


Your post is 100% accurate IMO.
To add to your list, seeing yourself above water like the OP did, but especially underwater is gold.

2015-12-11 11:09 PM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by marcag



Suzanne, thank you for providing useful information.
The one thing you hear about when intentionally slowing down stroke rate and trying to do more distance per stroke is people tend to end up gliding and creating other problems at the beginning of their stroke. What is your take on this ? Do you think people should avoid over-gliding ?




you're welcome!

You ask a tough question because what's right for each swimmer is different and what's right for a swimmer today is different from what's right for that same swimmer in 6 months or 6 months prior. And the path from here to there for any swimmer may walk along some places that are not permanent places to be, but places to visit along the way.

"over-doing" anything sounds bad, so sure, over-gliding must be bad too. The problem is that you'll not find a concensus on what overgliding means or is. it has a connotation that a certain STYLE of swimming is bad, and it has the limitation of making many people AFRAID to experience true streamlining, which is often the next best step for a swimmer's progress between here and there.

I worked with a swimmer once in the 2:30 range (like the OP) whose tri coach told her to glide , "but not too much". The swimmers interpretation of that was a continuous churn of arm movement.

swimming should also have a rnge of efforts and resultant speeds just like you can walk, jog or run, and you can ride your bike in cruise, endurance or threshold modes by adjusting variables we take for granted. Most swimmers have one speed and having only one speed limits your performance and potential to ecome a better swimmer. having a range of speed, like shifting gears on a bike, requires having the ability to manipulate your stroke rate and/or your distance per stroke or both at the same time to create cruise speed, recovery speed, restorative speed, meditative speed...all valuable...as well as having speeds/techniques that push your fitness envelope.

When people get scared to experiment with slowing swim tempo because someone has labeled a thing called "overgliding" as very bad thing to do...swimmers are limited in their opportunities to improve their stroke.

So I take it back. Overgliding is a very good thing...it lets people feel and experience things about moving through the water that they need to experience to become the best swimmer they can be.

2015-12-12 3:21 AM
in reply to: aribloch


6

Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Hi there
Saw the video, just some ideas...

. What's your stroke count between the 2:00 and 2:30?
Why is it higher in the 2:30?
. Are you trying to use the walls or trying not to?
If you are, then you can easily shave 15 sec.
. Have you tried a pull buoy?
If so, what's your time and stroke count?
. When your arm pull, do you feel a handful/armful of water?
Make sure that water is pushed towards the back.

Swimming is all about technique.
My first idea is that you are in oxygen deficit and so you slow down very quickly, but in the video you seem to breath ok and even paused at the wall. But, it is something for you to consider.

2015-12-12 5:09 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by marcag



Suzanne, thank you for providing useful information.
The one thing you hear about when intentionally slowing down stroke rate and trying to do more distance per stroke is people tend to end up gliding and creating other problems at the beginning of their stroke. What is your take on this ? Do you think people should avoid over-gliding ?




you're welcome!

You ask a tough question because what's right for each swimmer is different and what's right for a swimmer today is different from what's right for that same swimmer in 6 months or 6 months prior. And the path from here to there for any swimmer may walk along some places that are not permanent places to be, but places to visit along the way.

"over-doing" anything sounds bad, so sure, over-gliding must be bad too. The problem is that you'll not find a concensus on what overgliding means or is. it has a connotation that a certain STYLE of swimming is bad, and it has the limitation of making many people AFRAID to experience true streamlining, which is often the next best step for a swimmer's progress between here and there.

I worked with a swimmer once in the 2:30 range (like the OP) whose tri coach told her to glide , "but not too much". The swimmers interpretation of that was a continuous churn of arm movement.

swimming should also have a rnge of efforts and resultant speeds just like you can walk, jog or run, and you can ride your bike in cruise, endurance or threshold modes by adjusting variables we take for granted. Most swimmers have one speed and having only one speed limits your performance and potential to ecome a better swimmer. having a range of speed, like shifting gears on a bike, requires having the ability to manipulate your stroke rate and/or your distance per stroke or both at the same time to create cruise speed, recovery speed, restorative speed, meditative speed...all valuable...as well as having speeds/techniques that push your fitness envelope.

When people get scared to experiment with slowing swim tempo because someone has labeled a thing called "overgliding" as very bad thing to do...swimmers are limited in their opportunities to improve their stroke.

So I take it back. Overgliding is a very good thing...it lets people feel and experience things about moving through the water that they need to experience to become the best swimmer they can be.




thanks.
If I don't may attention I have a tendency to overglide slightly and consider it a flaw.
That being said, if I have to "overglide" in a drill for other purposes I can live with that.
For me, if it's step towards more efficienc, it's good.

But I do think that people should be aware that there can be negative consequences to overgliding. As soon as people over concentrate on distance per stroke, they may be introducing a whole new set of problems. They just need to be aware of it.




2015-12-12 6:38 AM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by marcagSuzanne, thank you for providing useful information.The one thing you hear about when intentionally slowing down stroke rate and trying to do more distance per stroke is people tend to end up gliding and creating other problems at the beginning of their stroke. What is your take on this ? Do you think people should avoid over-gliding ?
you're welcome! You ask a tough question because what's right for each swimmer is different and what's right for a swimmer today is different from what's right for that same swimmer in 6 months or 6 months prior. And the path from here to there for any swimmer may walk along some places that are not permanent places to be, but places to visit along the way. "over-doing" anything sounds bad, so sure, over-gliding must be bad too. The problem is that you'll not find a concensus on what overgliding means or is. it has a connotation that a certain STYLE of swimming is bad, and it has the limitation of making many people AFRAID to experience true streamlining, which is often the next best step for a swimmer's progress between here and there. I worked with a swimmer once in the 2:30 range (like the OP) whose tri coach told her to glide , "but not too much". The swimmers interpretation of that was a continuous churn of arm movement. swimming should also have a rnge of efforts and resultant speeds just like you can walk, jog or run, and you can ride your bike in cruise, endurance or threshold modes by adjusting variables we take for granted. Most swimmers have one speed and having only one speed limits your performance and potential to ecome a better swimmer. having a range of speed, like shifting gears on a bike, requires having the ability to manipulate your stroke rate and/or your distance per stroke or both at the same time to create cruise speed, recovery speed, restorative speed, meditative speed...all valuable...as well as having speeds/techniques that push your fitness envelope. When people get scared to experiment with slowing swim tempo because someone has labeled a thing called "overgliding" as very bad thing to do...swimmers are limited in their opportunities to improve their stroke. So I take it back. Overgliding is a very good thing...it lets people feel and experience things about moving through the water that they need to experience to become the best swimmer they can be.
thanks. If I don't may attention I have a tendency to overglide slightly and consider it a flaw. That being said, if I have to "overglide" in a drill for other purposes I can live with that.For me, if it's step towards more efficienc, it's good.But I do think that people should be aware that there can be negative consequences to overgliding. As soon as people over concentrate on distance per stroke, they may be introducing a whole new set of problems. They just need to be aware of it.
Now this conversation is getting into some great stuff! I'd take your concept farther, and say people need to be aware that focusing too much on any one aspect of their swimming and overdoing it will have negative consequences if they get locked into it as the way they swim rather than, as Suzanne says, a walk along their path to being better. Excessive glide, a fast turnover that churns water, and excessive rotation can all be bad, but playing with different variations and stroke rates can be good. One of the biggest things that I see holding athletes back is the tendency to latch onto one tree and forget about the forest.
2015-12-12 8:01 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by TriMyBest
Now this conversation is getting into some great stuff! I'd take your concept farther, and say people need to be aware that focusing too much on any one aspect of their swimming and overdoing it will have negative consequences if they get locked into it as the way they swim rather than, as Suzanne says, a walk along their path to being better. Excessive glide, a fast turnover that churns water, and excessive rotation can all be bad, but playing with different variations and stroke rates can be good. One of the biggest things that I see holding athletes back is the tendency to latch onto one tree and forget about the forest.


Agreed on many fronts.

As long as the person knows there is potential downside to a long glide. I am not using the term overglide :-)
2015-12-13 9:26 AM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by brigby1

From here:

"This is one of the single biggest coaching misunderstandings in triathlon. If the majority of swim training is focused on "metabolics," then you are overlooking where the biggest gains in efficiency come from in swimming – the technique or the neuromuscular efficiency of the stroke movement."

" Overcoming drag through a more efficient movement/body position in the water is more important than training zones. I refer to it as training "technique under load," or swimming high intensity, short repeats while focusing on technique. In my experience, this is the best way to make triathletes more efficient in the water. Let me be clear, this is not an either/or proposition; I do consider metabolics, but is not the primary driver. The main focus is always, "How do we make the stroke more efficient?" "

These are not cupcake workouts he's giving them either.




This is a great quote and I agree 100% (just reposting here for emphasis).

"This is one of the single biggest coaching misunderstandings in triathlon. If the majority of swim training is focused on "metabolics," then you are overlooking where the biggest gains in efficiency come from in swimming – the technique or the neuromuscular efficiency of the stroke movement. "
2015-12-13 10:05 AM
in reply to: marcag

User image


538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by TriMyBest
Now this conversation is getting into some great stuff! I'd take your concept farther, and say people need to be aware that focusing too much on any one aspect of their swimming and overdoing it will have negative consequences if they get locked into it as the way they swim rather than, as Suzanne says, a walk along their path to being better. Excessive glide, a fast turnover that churns water, and excessive rotation can all be bad, but playing with different variations and stroke rates can be good. One of the biggest things that I see holding athletes back is the tendency to latch onto one tree and forget about the forest.


Agreed on many fronts.

As long as the person knows there is potential downside to a long glide. I am not using the term overglide :-)


From listening and watching and reading up regarding this what I had summarized was that excessively gliding that leads to a momentary HALT in forward momentum is where it's bad, because then you're spending energy to "restart" momentum. I video'd myself and used the metronome to help alert me to this in my stroke. I increased my rate enough to stop me from "leaving my hand out there". If I increased my rate cadence to a point where I was no longer faster, then I realized other form was suffering and then try to address and improve from there. It seems to have worked. What do you guys think? I didn't want to hijack a thread but thought it'd fit in to this discussion
2015-12-13 10:24 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by TJHammer

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by TriMyBest
Now this conversation is getting into some great stuff! I'd take your concept farther, and say people need to be aware that focusing too much on any one aspect of their swimming and overdoing it will have negative consequences if they get locked into it as the way they swim rather than, as Suzanne says, a walk along their path to being better. Excessive glide, a fast turnover that churns water, and excessive rotation can all be bad, but playing with different variations and stroke rates can be good. One of the biggest things that I see holding athletes back is the tendency to latch onto one tree and forget about the forest.


Agreed on many fronts.

As long as the person knows there is potential downside to a long glide. I am not using the term overglide :-)


From listening and watching and reading up regarding this what I had summarized was that excessively gliding that leads to a momentary HALT in forward momentum is where it's bad, because then you're spending energy to "restart" momentum. I video'd myself and used the metronome to help alert me to this in my stroke. I increased my rate enough to stop me from "leaving my hand out there". If I increased my rate cadence to a point where I was no longer faster, then I realized other form was suffering and then try to address and improve from there. It seems to have worked. What do you guys think? I didn't want to hijack a thread but thought it'd fit in to this discussion


This seems reasonable...as long as it is also resulting in increased speed, keep practicing....but keep also going back to the slower tempo to experiment and see if you can uncover new flaws at the slow tempo that get covered up at the higher tempo.

The drawback with automatically equating leaving the hand out with a momentary halt, is that there are often OTHER things going on creating drag. By keeping rate high some people (not necessarily you) are covering up opportunities to reduce drag from other parts of the stroke (legs, core, hips, head, etc).

Model aircraft builders use something called a glideout test. before adding any power to the plane, they "glide" it out and see how far and how well it travels. Traveling far while not stroking is an indication of reduced drag. Everyone is different, every body type & buoyancy is different so there will be different needs for different people given the exact same metrics.

I've seen prospective TI coaches with this exact problem...the rate is so slow that between strokes their hips start to sink like a rock. His coaches plan IS to bring up the tempo, but when he brings the tempo up, the stroke totally falls apart. What's important for that swimmer is to recognize that his current tempo and technique are only a point on a curve. There will be a time in the future when he can probably stroke slowly and not drop like a rock because he's learned to control the other parts of his body (tone, recovery arm, balance, etc) . it can be a bit of a catch 22 at times. It's a process.

That's what makes swim training so fun.


2015-12-13 11:29 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by TJHammer

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by TriMyBest
Now this conversation is getting into some great stuff! I'd take your concept farther, and say people need to be aware that focusing too much on any one aspect of their swimming and overdoing it will have negative consequences if they get locked into it as the way they swim rather than, as Suzanne says, a walk along their path to being better. Excessive glide, a fast turnover that churns water, and excessive rotation can all be bad, but playing with different variations and stroke rates can be good. One of the biggest things that I see holding athletes back is the tendency to latch onto one tree and forget about the forest.


Agreed on many fronts.

As long as the person knows there is potential downside to a long glide. I am not using the term overglide :-)


From listening and watching and reading up regarding this what I had summarized was that excessively gliding that leads to a momentary HALT in forward momentum is where it's bad, because then you're spending energy to "restart" momentum. I video'd myself and used the metronome to help alert me to this in my stroke. I increased my rate enough to stop me from "leaving my hand out there". If I increased my rate cadence to a point where I was no longer faster, then I realized other form was suffering and then try to address and improve from there. It seems to have worked. What do you guys think? I didn't want to hijack a thread but thought it'd fit in to this discussion


In general I like the guys at swimsmooth who wrote this article on overgliding

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2015/12/curing-overglider.html

I take it as a data point, not the gospel.


Edited by marcag 2015-12-13 11:42 AM
2015-12-13 4:22 PM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review
Originally posted by marcag



In general I like the guys at swimsmooth who wrote this article on overgliding

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2015/12/curing-overglider.html

I take it as a data point, not the gospel.



that's a great example of how you'll find differing opinions about what "over-gliding" might be and why I don't like the term. I agree with all of their fine points...pressing down, dropping elbow, "startup" kick, etc. Those are all drag producing actions, which is quite different than gliding and eliminating as much drag as possible by using core control and balance, which is an active (not passive) thing, even when not stroking. (think balancing on one foot with eyes closed...you may be standing still, but it's not a passive activity)

In the example of the model airplane glide out test, my definition of "over glide" would be a well balanced plane with tuned wings, nose weight, etc and it glides gently forward until it lands on the grand, still carrying forward speed.

The swimmers on that page would be like the airplane whose wings flex, some of the superglue holding the body together falls off and at the last moment the tail falls off.

The article suggests that those things are due to a low rate ,but they're simply due to poor body control. Even if the swimmers speed is slowed or stopped, it can be regenerated without any of those problems.

So not so much disagreeing with that article and the flaws and corrections needed as with the terminology used ,and the pathway to correcting those flaws...the result is that it generates a lot of reluctance and fear on the part of swimmers to work on streamlining aspects of the stroke.
2016-02-25 10:54 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

User image

Subject: RE: My swim video for peer review

Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by aribloch IMHO perhaps what is most telling (maybe) is that on first length of a set I can do 2:00 or better but then it quickly falls back to average levels. Assuming form is largely the same, to me this means that it is as suggested 80% power related (or so).

 

OP - your assumption is correct. 

 

Ignore all the name calling and belittling of yours and others' ability on this forum, and consider the given advice for its relevance and practical impact on your particular situation, as well as the presented evidence. I actually think there's a pretty clear consensus already on what most folks think of where to go from here. 

 

 Keep in mind - if you were wasting energy in your pull by pushing down, sideways, or elsewhere, it would show up as an error in body position, rotation, etc. The force that doesn't get translated to forward motion doesn't just 'disappear'. If you were truly a 1:40/100 swimmer but wasting your energy by pushing down or sideways, you would have a symptom of it and we would see it, like a big vertical bob, or big overrotation or fishtail. As is, I think people who are suggesting you already have the swim fitness for 1:40 but just need to change your stroke angles, are a bit too optimistic.  Your turnover would also be much faster if you really did have the fitness of a 1:40 swimmer. 

 

 

 

Excellent post. 

 

Taking a bit more time between shorter sets to recover so you can focus on form would be a suggestion. Definitely increase the total yards in your workouts. 

Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast. Try a couple of lengths seeing how slow and smooth you can go, focus on form. 

This guy has some great, easy to follow instructional videos. 

https://youtu.be/m7o_ysAVkIk

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » My swim video for peer review Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Any reviews of TrainerRoad + videos (not Sufferfest)

Started by yazmaster
Views: 1140 Posts: 1

2012-12-23 11:35 PM yazmaster

Help me swim faster! Swim critique video Pages: 1 2

Started by ssshaunaaa
Views: 3598 Posts: 29

2012-05-22 2:11 PM AdventureBear

Please review my bike fit (VIDEO)

Started by baltrui
Views: 1101 Posts: 5

2011-05-04 12:29 PM baltrui

video gear reviews for clyds/athenas

Started by Ontherun
Views: 1191 Posts: 3

2009-03-27 12:36 PM Brock Samson

Swimming advice or help needed on video clip of myself swimming Pages: 1 2

Started by steven
Views: 3515 Posts: 29

2004-05-11 4:52 AM steven
RELATED ARTICLES
date : November 12, 2009
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
In this review, we put the Garmin Forerunner 405 and the Suunto T6C heart-rate and GPS watches through the wringers.
 
date : January 3, 2009
author : Coach AJ
comments : 3
We review the Halo Swim Trainer and how it can help the 'high elbow catch' part of your swim stroke along with your swimming tempo.
date : November 17, 2008
author : Ontherun
comments : 0
In part 3 of this series on mid-range fullsuits, we review the Neo Sport Sprint fullsuit for comfort, warmth, buoyancy and performance.
 
date : August 6, 2008
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
We review both the Sci'Con Atlas and the Aerotech Evolution bike cases for traveling with your bike.
date : July 7, 2008
author : Ron
comments : 1
This is a 'first impressions' review of the Fit2Race Sockeye Fullsuit. From a first wetsuit point-of-view, I was able to dramatically improve my pace over non-wetsuit swims.
 
date : April 14, 2008
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
Need a high-performance wheel upgrade? Watch the review of the Specialized Roval Rapide Carbon Clincher wheelset which turned out to be an excellent all-around wheelset for both training and racing.
date : February 18, 2008
author : Ontherun
comments : 7
Looking for a liquid hydration system for your runs? We review the unique Amphipod RunLite 4 belt hydration system. Other than a few small issues, it has performed well.
 
date : October 1, 2006
author : Ron
comments : 2
Triathletes are not invincible. Some of us like to think we are, but that is just not true. Anything can happen to us in open water. So why not make sure you are prepared for an emergency?