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2016-04-04 7:01 PM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
Originally posted by Scott71

Mike/Marc - great discussion on transitioning into the peak phase of training.  Over the winter I've been focusing on VO2 max workouts but am trying to ease back and incorporate more threshold work as race season approaches. 

I will mainly be racing Sprints over the summer with an Olympic in August and possible HIM in September.

I've also made a few adjustments to my fit but am a bit worried that I may be sacrificing power for aero.

If I could indulge you all, attached is a screenshot from the "Bike Fit Inspector" app on the triracebook.com website.

The changes I made are: lower the bars by removing all 3 spacers and move the saddle up and back a little.

I tried to move the arm pads closer together a few weeks ago but it was really uncomfortable in the shoulders so I moved them back.

I believe that all of the 'TRB' markers are roughly in the right positions and so the angles should be fairly accurate with the exception of seat angle.

If I measure the seat angle from the bottom bracket (as opposed to my ankle), then the angle is 81.5 degrees.  I may need to move the saddle further back.

It also looks like I need to move the arm pads forward, but its actually fairly comfortable at that angle.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Another question is how long should it take to adapt to a new position?  I tried a very short threshold interval with the new position and found that my hamstrings and quads started to burn within a few minutes.





Is that a static pic or dynamic, i.e. frozen frame of a video ? Static can be misleading especially for foot angle and knee angle.

The dot on the hip is probably a bit low. Continue along the line from the knee probably where the red and black meet

I would try to squeeze a little more saddle height. Will open up hip, but t isn''t tight.
Your closed hip angle does not appear bad. Your pelvis looks good.
What makes you think you've lost power ?

How far behind BB is the nose of your saddle

Overlall I think you look pretty good.
If you want to throw money at something I would go with Vulka pads with some risers eliminating spacers or a torhans bottle and I went put a bento box on there.


2016-04-04 7:04 PM
in reply to: SenatorClayDavis

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis
You seem to like the 4/8/4/8 etc. breakdown, so maybe I'll come up with something similar.


For the 4 week blocks, It just happened to be I wanted to work shorter periods on something very specific or to transition from one block to the other.
2016-04-04 8:18 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Successful TT yesterday.  RR here.

Then capped it off with some mountain biking in the afternoon, and a BBQ in the evening.  Unfortunately while throwing around a football, I jammed my right middle finger and tore the extensor tendon that keeps the tip of your finger straight.  So basically I have to wear a splint for the next 6-8 weeks.  Pretty sure this won't impact my riding other than maybe not being able to shift as aggressively during a sprint or attack...but probably no more mountain biking as I can't properly grip the bars or the brake lever which isn't good for a mountain biking noob like myself.

2016-04-04 10:37 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

It was a static photo.  I tried spinning for a few minutes beforehand to get comfortable in the position and tried to freeze my position, but I know its not perfect.

I have an Adamo Road saddle and its about 5 cm behind the BB.  I did move the seat up slightly and it feels pretty good.

Initial impression was that I couldn't hold power compared to my prior position, but I did a VO2 max ride tonight - 8x3 @ 110% with 2 minutes rest.  Quads were burning towards the end but I managed to hold aero for all of the intervals.  So maybe it was just in my head.

Next purchase is either the LG M2 tri jersey or the Castelli T1 Stealth.

2016-04-05 10:32 AM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
Originally posted by Scott71

Mike - you posted a 'critique my fit' video last week and so you may be interested in the Bike Fit Inspector on triracebook.com.  You upload a photo of your aero position, place markers on various parts of your position and then it spits out some angles with recommendations if you don't fall in a set range.

There's a tutorial on youtube.com that pretty self explanatory - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA1bb-G7KI0.  Its a little twitchy and can be tough to get the markers in the right spot, but gives you some basic data of your fit.  

I'll let those more experienced comment on your fit, but you look like you are pretty low.  Did you notice any drop in power as compared to your prior position?




Thanks, I may take a look and see what the Bike Fit Inspector says. I haven't noticed any discomfort or loss of power. Getting into my current position has been a gradual process with incremental adjustments, so there was never a dramatic change. It's possible that if I tested I might have seen some loss of power, but just continuing with my workouts I never perceived any loss. I've always done all my intervals, and virtually all of my riding, in the aero position so it's where I'm conditioned to put out power - I notice a significant drop in power when I'm riding on the horns, so dropping a cm or two up front doesn't seem nearly as significant.
2016-04-05 8:46 PM
in reply to: SenatorClayDavis

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis That's helpful. I'm wondering now if it makes the most sense just to ditch the Trainerroad plan and develop my own training blocks instead so I can craft the timeframes and goals to my specific needs. You seem to like the 4/8/4/8 etc. breakdown, so maybe I'll come up with something similar. Under that system I could have an 8 week block leading up to my race in June and then a 4 week block leading up to Nationals. In terms of weaknesses on the bike, I rarely feel really challenged by VO2 work, it's the long threshold stuff that's a challenge. On saturday my workout called for 90 minutes @ 90-95% of FTP and I couldn't complete it. Now I have been sick, but I still don't know if I could have done that workout without the cold. So I'd say holding threshold efforts for longer periods is an issue at this point. I also consistently struggle with over-under workouts (i.e. recovering from above threshold efforts at just below threshold). So probably similar to you in the sense of less VO2 and more threshold as I get closer to racing.

95% for 90min - um, no.  Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but 2x20min at 95% is a pretty solid effort on it's own, so 95% seems like it's really stretching it.  Doing the math, I may be able to pull off 90% with where I am at the moment, but I would likely be shattered afterwards - and that would be a very big maybe..and as I sit and think about it some more, I would likely finish somewhere in the high 80's.



2016-04-05 9:22 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
That workout was Trainerroad's "Phoenix +2". There's a 10 minute warmup then you're into 1:17 going between 90-95%, with a 3 minute cooldown at the end. I made it to 1:04 before I had to take a 4 minute recovery interval. I went back up to the sub-threshold pace for another 7 minutes and then called it a day. I did the regular Phoenix (same thing but @ 80-85% of FTP) two weeks ago without issue so I thought this one would be challenging but doable. Not so (at this point in my season). It's funny how big of a difference there is between low-80s and low-90s.

The plan calls for me to try it again in two weeks so we'll see what happens then. I'm going to have to psych myself up for that one.
2016-04-06 5:31 PM
in reply to: SenatorClayDavis

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis  It's funny how big of a difference there is between low-80s and low-90s.

That's basically a 25 watt difference for me.  Low 80's (right around 80%) is where I'll target HIM, and low 90's would be pushing an Oly, but I might still be below 90% for that distance/duration.

2016-04-06 8:09 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis That workout was Trainerroad's "Phoenix +2". There's a 10 minute warmup then you're into 1:17 going between 90-95%, with a 3 minute cooldown at the end. I made it to 1:04 before I had to take a 4 minute recovery interval. I went back up to the sub-threshold pace for another 7 minutes and then called it a day. I did the regular Phoenix (same thing but @ 80-85% of FTP) two weeks ago without issue so I thought this one would be challenging but doable. Not so (at this point in my season). It's funny how big of a difference there is between low-80s and low-90s. The plan calls for me to try it again in two weeks so we'll see what happens then. I'm going to have to psych myself up for that one.

Yeah, I'm guessing the 1:17 at 90-95% is likely going to have you a lot closer to the 90% than 95%.  95% for 77 minutes would be very close to an all out effort requiring a taper and race motivation.  Possible, but not very likely to happen within a normal training block unless you're FTP number is due to be bumped up.  

90% would still be very difficult considering it's just a training workout without race motivation...even if you were well rested going in.  80-85% seems like a more appropriate target for someone in the middle of their training plan and wants to ensure they can complete the workout without high chance of failure or risking high recovery costs that may impact other workouts.



Edited by Jason N 2016-04-06 8:10 PM
2016-04-07 12:30 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

So I'm not in the market for a new tri bike but stumbled on a deal at an LBS that I am seriously considering.

Its a 2013 Specialized Shiv Expert and is selling for about 40% off the MSRP price.

I just traded emails with the bike shop and they would include a free comprehensive fit with the bike, which is a $350 charge on their website. 

I'm currently riding a 2012 Felt B16 and really like it, and so does anyone know if the Shiv would be a significant improvement?  Based on a few reviews, they talk about the aero qualities of the Shiv but I've also read some pretty favourable reviews about the aerodynamics of the B16 as well.

I'd get a pre-fit measurement to make sure the geometry works for me, but based on what I've read the Shiv is better suited for my body type than the Felt (long legs with shorter torso).  The Felt's cockpit is pretty forgiving and so I made it work, but the overall geometry of the B16 is long a low and wasn't exactly ideal. 

I would end up swapping my Adamo saddle and race wheels, but all of the other components look to be an upgrade. 

Its a 10 speed and I believe that the 2014 was upgraded to 11 speed.  But my rear Flo 90 is a 10 speed and so I wouldn't need to upgrade my race wheels.

Its tempting, but not sure if I'd pull the trigger if it was only a marginal upgrade.

2016-04-07 1:26 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Does the LBS utilize a fit machine like a Retul or Guru?  If so, my suggestion would be this...

Make an appointment to pay for the $350 fit and get your ideal coordinates.  See if you can get there on your Felt and if you can, then you just got good ROI on $350.  

If your Felt can't get there, but the Shiv can...then is there a possibility that you buy the Shiv, set it up to those coordinates, and they still throw in the fit for free?

If your Felt can get "close", then it's just a matter of deciding whether or not buying the Shiv is worth it to get all the way there.

I don't think there is a big difference between the two bikes.  The biggest difference you'll see is if your fit will improve.

 



Edited by Jason N 2016-04-07 1:27 PM


2016-04-07 4:09 PM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

There was a pretty good thread in TT a few weeks ago where someone was asking about the time savings between his current bike (a Cervelo P2) and some other bike (super bike??  can't remember) and it basically came down to "does your current bike fit?"  If the answer is yes, then "have you done aero testing to get the most benefit out of it?"  I suspect the gains you'd see from going from your Felt to that Shiv may not be worth the money.

Now, it may be a different story if the Felt doesn't fit you and you are terribly uncomfortable and can't stay in aero....if, and only if, the Shiv provides a good fit for you (which you would only know by being fit before committing to the bike). 

Of course, I get the idea of wanting a new bike, but then it should be because you want a new bike and not because you think you're going to get some magical gains from it.

2016-04-07 7:47 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Good points Jason/Nicole.  I do recall the Cervelo/superbike thread and a few responses that there likely wouldn't be any drastic gains in speed.

As much as I like the Shiv, it likely wouldn't be a significant upgrade.

I get Jason's point that I probably should bite the bullet and get a proper fit done, but its one of those investments that I find hard to justify.

Despite the Felt geometry being a little less than ideal, my prior fit was quite comfortable.  For a late season Olympic last year, I was in aero basically the entire ride and managed decent power. 

I'm not sure the type of fit the LBS offers.  They are FIST certified but there isn't any reference to retul or guru on their website.  

The last fit I had done wasn't too expensive (around $150) but they only made a few minor changes to my position.  After that experience, I'd hate to now pay $300 to $400 to find out what I had done on my own was fine.  

Will definitely be doing some aero testing once the weather warms up (whenever that may be).  Its forecast to be below freezing this weekend!

Also, after all the recent discussion of shorter cranks, I am looking into how difficult it would be to swap the 175 mm cranks on my Power2Max to 165 mm.

2016-04-08 5:34 AM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Hi Scott,

most of the time I would say get a fit is the most important but

a) if you are generating as much power in aero as sitting up
b) you have no pain and are comfortable
c) have very reasonable coordinates, albeit from a static shot
d) probably still have a bit of room to go up, down, front and back
e) looking mostly for aero gains

I am not sure if a fit or new bike is the first step, unless you know some limiters and want to work around them....for example can't get head down, pains somewhere.....

It would be a shame to buy a new bike, get a nice comfy fit, one day go to Milton and they find that extending your reach 4cm and stretching you out big time in front was way faster and your new bike didn't allow for that.

I'm also hesitant about buying 10speed technology. Nothing wrong with it, certainly no need to replace it but I wouldn't be buying 10speed stuff today. Biting the bullet is hard. Sometimes it's best to sell it all as 1 piece ie disc, bike....

In a perfect world you would be well tested at a place like Milton and any extra money would go to the findings of that. For example, I bet a Torhans bottle would really help on that bike.

The biggest problem IMO is finding truly competent fitters and/or aero testers for that matter. You could come to Montreal, get fit and do some testing at the F1 track. Problem with that one is the investment of 10hours of driving.

2016-04-08 8:44 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Thanks Marc.  I do think my fit last year had room for improvement but overall wasn't too bad.  I was able to maintain aero for every race, although mostly Sprints with one Olympic. 

Based on data from a race last year, I recall that you estimated my CDA at around .27 based on Aerolab so there is room for improvement there and that's what I plan to work on this season.

First step was to drop the front bars and then work on getting comfortable in that adjustment over the next month or so.

I've also cleaned up the cockpit to move some things out of the wind.  I do have a torrhans bottle on the seat tube that I use for a flat kit and use an Xlab torpedo up front.  Also, looking at a few options for a sleeved tri jersey.

I've been reading the Platypus thread on ST and plan to do some aero testing when the weather warms up.  Hopefully that will shave a few points off of the CDA.

2016-04-08 8:57 AM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Personally I would do some testing, and try to get some consistent results.

Then I would slam your front end down at the expense of power and comfort and I would see if it makes a difference. If not, leave it as is
I would also be prepared to extend your arms out and test.

Once you know what makes a difference you can decide if it is sustainable and/or if your bike needs to change.

Clothing will make a huge, huge difference. I can't say enough. I saw them test clothing and it was significant.


2016-04-08 9:35 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Will be buying a sleeved jersey shortly and just ordered 165 mm cranks to throw into the mix.

When it comes to aero testing, there is an outdoor high school track close by that is always empty on weekends.

Would that be a good place to test?  Its flat and no traffic or corners for braking.  4 or 5 laps on a windless day would get fairly decent data for each ride.

The platypus thread seemed to suggest that an outdoor track would work, but I couldn't find any discussion on the material of the track. 

I've only just started running on it when it has been below freezing and so if its the spongy track material then I suppose that might affect CRR.  But it wouldn't really matter in testing the aero benefit between various positions.  The actual CDA might not be reliable but at least I could see what worked.

2016-04-08 10:33 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
Marc do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on the "real world" applicability of aero testing of sleeved kits? I understand that in many cases the savings of the right sleeved kit over a sleeveless suit can be very significant, though it's not absolute (i.e. some people in some sleeved suits actually see an increase in drag over their old sleeveless kit).

What always bothered me about these tests is that they appear to be done on a rider who is bone dry and has all the time in the world to pull on the suit properly, smooth out the wrinkles, etc. Whereas in a race, you're coming out of the water wet and you're hurriedly pulling on this suit in T1. It seems totally reasonable to assume that this is going to result in a "less than ideal" fit. And thus, your actual savings are likely to be far less than what stand-alone aero testing would suggest. The compromised fit could even push you into a "worse than sleeveless" situation.

I guess the best solution would be to do one's own aero testing by trying to replicate a "race fit" (i.e. jump in the shower first, get good and wet, and take whatever you think is a reasonable amount of time to pull on the suit, say 45s max) and then testing that. But I'm not aware of anyone actually doing this.
2016-04-08 11:32 AM
in reply to: 0

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Hi Mike - I'm looking into getting a sleeved jersey but would only do so if I could wear it during the swim.  I've looked at the Louis Garneau M2 and Castelli T1 Stealth and although they are supposed to be skin tight, I have read reviews that both are not too restricting and that you shouldn't have any problems for the swim.

I would think that you could deal with any wrinkles on the run up to T1... although there have been a few races where I haven't been thinking clearly until well into bike



Edited by Scott71 2016-04-08 11:32 AM
2016-04-08 11:35 AM
in reply to: SenatorClayDavis

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Not sure which races you target, but just wanted to make sure you are aware that WTC races started to allow athletes to wear a short sleeved Tri suit during non wetsuit swims.  I think USAT races still won't allow short sleeves during non wetsuit swims though. I could be wrong. 

2016-04-08 12:19 PM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Originally posted by Scott71

When it comes to aero testing, there is an outdoor high school track close by that is always empty on weekends.

Would that be a good place to test?  Its flat and no traffic or corners for braking.  4 or 5 laps on a windless day would get fairly decent data for each ride.

HS track?  Like a 400m track?  I, personally, would not ride my bike on that (for aero testing or any other purpose) regardless of whether it was empty or not.

When I was doing aero testing, I found roads that were relatively flat (okay, really flat....I live in Houston!), straight, and three miles (5km) long.  I'd get up to power, hit the lap button, go 3 miles, hit the lap button, and then coast (and recalibrate my PM), U-turn, and repeat.  After an out-and-back, I would change configuration and do the next run. 



2016-04-08 12:30 PM
in reply to: SenatorClayDavis

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed

Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis Marc do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on the "real world" applicability of aero testing of sleeved kits?

I did aero testing of a Desoto ITU tri suit versus an M2 top (over the Desoto suit) and it was a saving of about two minutes over a HIM bike leg at my power.  It was a difference in cda of just over 0.01.

Some people will claim that for the top to be tight enough to provide an aero benefit that it will be too constricting  to swim well in, but I didn't notice any issues.  You could also leave it unzipped (partially or fully), or you could have it rolled down and just around your torso, and work it up while you're making your way through transition. 

As Jason noted, WTC non-wetsuit legal races are now allowing sleeves (to the elbows), but you'd want to confirm that it doesn't restrict your swimming.  That said, a two minute saving (for me) would have been worth a 45s longer transition if it had come to that.

2016-04-08 4:26 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by Scott71

When it comes to aero testing, there is an outdoor high school track close by that is always empty on weekends.

Would that be a good place to test?  Its flat and no traffic or corners for braking.  4 or 5 laps on a windless day would get fairly decent data for each ride.

HS track?  Like a 400m track?  I, personally, would not ride my bike on that (for aero testing or any other purpose) regardless of whether it was empty or not.

When I was doing aero testing, I found roads that were relatively flat (okay, really flat....I live in Houston!), straight, and three miles (5km) long.  I'd get up to power, hit the lap button, go 3 miles, hit the lap button, and then coast (and recalibrate my PM), U-turn, and repeat.  After an out-and-back, I would change configuration and do the next run. 




You can tweak the test protocol according to your specific test conditions.

I used to even have a protocol to determine CDA and CRR but I'd have to dig it up. I would find a road. The only real constraint is either no braking or a really hard braking.

Each type of course has it's advantages/disadvantages so it's more of a choice based on what's available and safe.

Low traffic is important.

2016-04-10 9:54 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
Originally posted by Jason N

Not sure which races you target, but just wanted to make sure you are aware that WTC races started to allow athletes to wear a short sleeved Tri suit during non wetsuit swims.  I think USAT races still won't allow short sleeves during non wetsuit swims though. I could be wrong. 




So the question is...

Will you save more time with your sleeves on the bike versus losing time with sleeves on the swim?

I vote for an overwhelming majority to be no.
2016-04-10 10:22 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed
Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by Jason N

Not sure which races you target, but just wanted to make sure you are aware that WTC races started to allow athletes to wear a short sleeved Tri suit during non wetsuit swims.  I think USAT races still won't allow short sleeves during non wetsuit swims though. I could be wrong. 




So the question is...

Will you save more time with your sleeves on the bike versus losing time with sleeves on the swim?

I vote for an overwhelming majority to be no.


How much time do you believe you would save with sleeves on the bike and how much do you think you would lose on the swim ?

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