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2016-01-12 6:10 PM


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Subject: RPE Thoughts
I'm curious to get your thoughts on RPE as I will be doing my HIM training based on RPE. Here were some thoughts from my recent workouts...

I run just under a sub 50 10k, and about a 1:50 HM. That's about an 8min and 8:25 min mile respectively. I jogged 4 miles the other night at about a 9 min mile and I was wondering to myself what RPE I was doing. I concluded I was at about a 5 because I knew I was only going to run about 35 mins. If I was running 10, maybe that's a 7.

I swim about a 2min per 100m. If I'm doing lengths of 400m or so. However I feel like I'm working hard when I swim sets of 100m doing about 1:55's. Safe to say I'm at an RPE of 8 or so?

I appreciate any discussion. Just figured I'd gather some thoughts and opinions before starting training.

Thanks as always!

Alex

"Trust the process."


2016-01-12 9:56 PM
in reply to: linkslefty

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
RPE is one of the most undervalued metrics I believe and its free.

Yes it takes time to calibrate and learn, but having a true sense of your personal effort can go a long way. It allows you to tune into your body more as well.

I think it allows the athlete to reflect a bit more on the session and what made the session easier/harder.

RPE is individual, but its best to record it and make sure your values are in-line.
2016-01-12 10:12 PM
in reply to: linkslefty

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
Originally posted by linkslefty

I'm curious to get your thoughts on RPE as I will be doing my HIM training based on RPE. Here were some thoughts from my recent workouts...

I run just under a sub 50 10k, and about a 1:50 HM. That's about an 8min and 8:25 min mile respectively. I jogged 4 miles the other night at about a 9 min mile and I was wondering to myself what RPE I was doing. I concluded I was at about a 5 because I knew I was only going to run about 35 mins. If I was running 10, maybe that's a 7.

I swim about a 2min per 100m. If I'm doing lengths of 400m or so. However I feel like I'm working hard when I swim sets of 100m doing about 1:55's. Safe to say I'm at an RPE of 8 or so?

I appreciate any discussion. Just figured I'd gather some thoughts and opinions before starting training.

Thanks as always!

Alex

"Trust the process."

I wonder if you're overthinking this? You seem to be trying to determine RPE based on other metrics. e.g. I'm running 30 sec per mile slower than my 10k pace so my RPE must be x.

RPE is about perception not measurement. And you're the only one that knows what you are perceiving. Imagine 0 or 1 are a relaxing stroll, and imagine that the end of a brutal race is 9 or 10. Then place everything else somewhere in between. With experience you will figure out how RPE aligns with other indicators.

Don
2016-01-12 10:17 PM
in reply to: linkslefty

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
RPE is affected by so many things and for me is more about body awareness and being aware of when I'm pushing things too hard or coasting to much. I know what my hands feel like when I'm running too hard. On the bike I can do a quick scan and know that when I'm pushing too hard because I tend to tilt my head a certain way. In the pool, I know my stroke typically starts to develop some mess.

These are all signs I've personally discovered to tell me that I'm going too fast and won't last for a long endurance race. However, on a short race or in certain conditions I commit to feeling that way because it tells me I'm in the right range or I hit that range and pull back slightly.

So from a personal standpoint I think just becoming aware of the feedback in breathing, posture, stroke, technique and any other feedback you can find is your best way of doing a quick scan to figure out whether you should speed up or slow down.


2016-01-13 7:46 AM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
Originally posted by donw

Originally posted by linkslefty

I'm curious to get your thoughts on RPE as I will be doing my HIM training based on RPE. Here were some thoughts from my recent workouts...

I run just under a sub 50 10k, and about a 1:50 HM. That's about an 8min and 8:25 min mile respectively. I jogged 4 miles the other night at about a 9 min mile and I was wondering to myself what RPE I was doing. I concluded I was at about a 5 because I knew I was only going to run about 35 mins. If I was running 10, maybe that's a 7.

I swim about a 2min per 100m. If I'm doing lengths of 400m or so. However I feel like I'm working hard when I swim sets of 100m doing about 1:55's. Safe to say I'm at an RPE of 8 or so?

I appreciate any discussion. Just figured I'd gather some thoughts and opinions before starting training.

Thanks as always!

Alex

"Trust the process."

I wonder if you're overthinking this? You seem to be trying to determine RPE based on other metrics. e.g. I'm running 30 sec per mile slower than my 10k pace so my RPE must be x.

RPE is about perception not measurement. And you're the only one that knows what you are perceiving. Imagine 0 or 1 are a relaxing stroll, and imagine that the end of a brutal race is 9 or 10. Then place everything else somewhere in between. With experience you will figure out how RPE aligns with other indicators.

Don


I agree with this. It's about perceived exertion (to state the obvious), not the output. I personally use a 1-5 scale because it jives with HR zones so I sort of keep an eye on both but RPE trumps. I can't find the 5 point scale online right now but it is a bit more descriptive (able to carry on a conversation, etc.). From my search it doesn't sound like it's as accepted and scientific but it works for me.
2016-01-13 8:12 AM
in reply to: smoom

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts

Originally posted by smoom
Originally posted by donw
Originally posted by linkslefty I'm curious to get your thoughts on RPE as I will be doing my HIM training based on RPE. Here were some thoughts from my recent workouts... I run just under a sub 50 10k, and about a 1:50 HM. That's about an 8min and 8:25 min mile respectively. I jogged 4 miles the other night at about a 9 min mile and I was wondering to myself what RPE I was doing. I concluded I was at about a 5 because I knew I was only going to run about 35 mins. If I was running 10, maybe that's a 7. I swim about a 2min per 100m. If I'm doing lengths of 400m or so. However I feel like I'm working hard when I swim sets of 100m doing about 1:55's. Safe to say I'm at an RPE of 8 or so? I appreciate any discussion. Just figured I'd gather some thoughts and opinions before starting training. Thanks as always! Alex "Trust the process."
I wonder if you're overthinking this? You seem to be trying to determine RPE based on other metrics. e.g. I'm running 30 sec per mile slower than my 10k pace so my RPE must be x. RPE is about perception not measurement. And you're the only one that knows what you are perceiving. Imagine 0 or 1 are a relaxing stroll, and imagine that the end of a brutal race is 9 or 10. Then place everything else somewhere in between. With experience you will figure out how RPE aligns with other indicators. Don
I agree with this. It's about perceived exertion (to state the obvious), not the output. I personally use a 1-5 scale because it jives with HR zones so I sort of keep an eye on both but RPE trumps. I can't find the 5 point scale online right now but it is a bit more descriptive (able to carry on a conversation, etc.). From my search it doesn't sound like it's as accepted and scientific but it works for me.

RPE is actually fairly well accepted by a lot of very good athletes. The trick is that it needs to be tuned in to be of value. That's where the metrics can help. Before getting power on the bike, I knew it's fairly normal to pick it up some on a hill. Turns out for me that was like 400-500 watts at the onset, fading to maybe 280 or so in spite of the apparent effort never changing. That's terrible pacing. After using power for a bit I can now keep it more even.



2016-01-13 8:32 AM
in reply to: linkslefty

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
2016-01-13 8:58 AM
in reply to: ToxicDonkey

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts

I think RPE is the best metric available.  It takes time and practice to get it right, but once you get dialed in to your paces it can absolutely tell you everything you need to know about your workout.  Log everything, and state your RPE in each workout.....it's about practice and LEARNING.  It's not hard to learn what 10 is, but 1-9 takes some work.

2016-01-13 10:06 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts

Agree that RPE is a very useful gauge, but takes time to fine tune.  Keep in mind that elite racers in all aspects...running, cycling, rowing, swimming, xc skiing, etc race mainly off of RPE.  Yes, they likely use other metrics in training to help fine tune, but when push comes to shove and winning moves are made, they are not looking at their pace, power meter, or HRM. 

2016-01-13 1:37 PM
in reply to: linkslefty

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts

I agree with the others, but will take it a step farther.  IMO, it's absolutely crucial for any endurance athlete to develop a sense of RPE, regardless of what metric they primarily use for training.

At some point, every athlete experiences a technology fail with their power meter, HR monitor, or GPS.  Murphy's Law says it's likely to be during their "big race".  Lacking an awareness of how their RPE correlates to various power levels, HR's, or paces, the athlete is likely to perform poorly that day.

Two years ago, I had an athlete doing IMMD for his first IM.  His wrist was kicked during the swim, breaking the band on his 910xt.  When he exited the water and pulled off his wetsuit, one part of his watch flew one way, and the rest of the band flew the other.  Because we had worked on using RPE in conjunction with HR, instead of panicking, he literally shrugged, and went on to enjoy the race without any data (not even pace or time on the bike, because he normally used the 910 for that too).  He finished within 15 minutes of the "best case scenario" that we'd established in his race plan.  A situation that could have been a bad experience for him ended up being a real confidence booster.

 

2016-01-13 1:52 PM
in reply to: linkslefty

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
In addition to what else has been posted, bear in mind that if you are thinking of a 10 point scale with 10 being all out, you are going to be quite a bit under that in almost all workouts. This is Borg's scale for 1-10 (the original work was 6-20).



Shane


2016-01-13 3:07 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
Originally posted by TriMyBest

I agree with the others, but will take it a step farther.  IMO, it's absolutely crucial for any endurance athlete to develop a sense of RPE, regardless of what metric they primarily use for training.

At some point, every athlete experiences a technology fail with their power meter, HR monitor, or GPS.  Murphy's Law says it's likely to be during their "big race".  Lacking an awareness of how their RPE correlates to various power levels, HR's, or paces, the athlete is likely to perform poorly that day.

Two years ago, I had an athlete doing IMMD for his first IM.  His wrist was kicked during the swim, breaking the band on his 910xt.  When he exited the water and pulled off his wetsuit, one part of his watch flew one way, and the rest of the band flew the other.  Because we had worked on using RPE in conjunction with HR, instead of panicking, he literally shrugged, and went on to enjoy the race without any data (not even pace or time on the bike, because he normally used the 910 for that too).  He finished within 15 minutes of the "best case scenario" that we'd established in his race plan.  A situation that could have been a bad experience for him ended up being a real confidence booster.

 




On a tangent of this, I have heard (many times) people contemplate doing their workout when technology fails. As "great" as some of those tools can be, I find them to be very limiting and binding to athletes.

Stress your body, gadgets never do the work.
2016-01-14 2:36 AM
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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts

Originally posted by gsmacleod In addition to what else has been posted, bear in mind that if you are thinking of a 10 point scale with 10 being all out, you are going to be quite a bit under that in almost all workouts. This is Borg's scale for 1-10 (the original work was 6-20). Shane

The best way I know to calibrate RPE is running 5K races and trying to PR.  Once you've ran 3 or 4, and paced yourself to not blow up the last mile, and hit it as hard as you can, along with using something like a Garmin that shows time interval (I use 2/10ths mile intervals), then you will know what a 10 feels like for endurance athletes.  It's the last quarter mile of a 5K.

My other "10+" RPE was the last quarter mile of Ironman Canada 2009.  I thought I was going to miss my 13:00 goal, but then on Lakeshore drive as I made the last turnaround I saw my coach and she yelled "You can still make 13!!!"  I dug as deep as I could, ran the last mile as hard as I ever ran any mile, experienced tunnel vision, and finished in 12;59:46, the last sub-13 finisher of the day. My Garmin said I did the last quarter mile at a 6:57 pace with an average HR of 189 and a peak of 197, which must have been right as I entered the finish chute with 30 seconds to go and knew I had made it.



Edited by brucemorgan 2016-01-14 2:37 AM
2016-01-14 8:44 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: RPE Thoughts
Originally posted by TriMyBest

I agree with the others, but will take it a step farther.  IMO, it's absolutely crucial for any endurance athlete to develop a sense of RPE, regardless of what metric they primarily use for training.

At some point, every athlete experiences a technology fail with their power meter, HR monitor, or GPS.  Murphy's Law says it's likely to be during their "big race".  Lacking an awareness of how their RPE correlates to various power levels, HR's, or paces, the athlete is likely to perform poorly that day.

Two years ago, I had an athlete doing IMMD for his first IM.  His wrist was kicked during the swim, breaking the band on his 910xt.  When he exited the water and pulled off his wetsuit, one part of his watch flew one way, and the rest of the band flew the other.  Because we had worked on using RPE in conjunction with HR, instead of panicking, he literally shrugged, and went on to enjoy the race without any data (not even pace or time on the bike, because he normally used the 910 for that too).  He finished within 15 minutes of the "best case scenario" that we'd established in his race plan.  A situation that could have been a bad experience for him ended up being a real confidence booster.

 




Yes I agree with all of this that RPE is free, and the ONLY way to sense what your body is doign or capable of. it takes willingness, experience and time.

Kirsten Sass, current ITU overall womens age group world champion...uses RPE for all of her training. It's crazy. She owns a HRM and uses it for her workouts, but we never / rarely look at it because she constantly gives me feedback about how things felt. "kept it easy" or "it hurt but I wanted to see how hard I could go" for the hard stuff. I use the numbers just to calibrate and track her PMC which can help plan future training blocks and peaks for upcoming races, and when I anticipate her needing a break, but it nearly always comes down to her knowing just how she is feeling, and sharing with me for feedback. Usually I recommend more rest when she is in doubt b/c I know she has no trouble pushing hard.

Pace, HR and Power can't tell you any of these things and they are so important to ongoing progress as an endurance athlete.
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