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2016-01-21 8:22 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by Hot Runner I'm not Don or Scott, but in my younger days I had a few acquaintances, including an occasional training partner, who succumbed to what I believe was OTS. It often (but not always) affects people who train very compulsively, without (or in spite of) competent coaching, and often ignoring what their bodies (and coaches) are trying to tell them. In at least one case and possibly the others, I'm sure the issue was compounded by disordered eating, or at least questionable nutrition, if not an actual eating disorder, which obviously affects recovery and resilience. These were young athletes (post-collegiate--both male and female) who ran upwards of 100 miles a week, with a fair amount of intensity. All were marathon/distance runners trying to break into the pro ranks, and there was a lot of pressure to do well in races, get sponsorships, etc. They were training at the same volume and intensity as the pros, without the resources that top pros have access to, and struggling even to afford training shoes, food, housing, etc. At the time it was diagnosed as chronic fatigue syndrome. Both never did return to the same level as before, and eventually quit competitive running. Probably pure OTS wouldn't be that common in recreational athletes, but given that some do put in amazingly high loads considering otherwise very full lives, and OCD type behavior seems pretty common in triathletes, I wouldn't doubt that it's possible. It would seem to me to be more of a danger with tri--one would be more likely to be stopped by other limiters like soreness, mental staleness. and injury with a single sport focus (particularly running) before OTS developed, whereas it might be easier, at least initially, to sustain a higher, possibly excessive, training load with three different sports, two of which are low-impact. Just thinking of myself, you couldn't PAY me to run 15 hours a week (which would have been over 120 miles a week when I was younger), but I regularly (and usually quite happily) do it with tri, even now at 46, in a peak week. But it's still 15 hours of training, some of it fairly intense, that requires adequate nutrition, recovery, etc. to sustain.

Based on your description, it's possible that you witnessed Female Athlete Triad.

 



2016-01-21 8:29 AM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by Burchib I'm not an expert at all, but I can say that I have been fighting a sinus and chest cold for 3 weeks, and I have had to reduce my pace in all areas. Part of the reason is fatigue, but for me, my HR has been HIGHER than normal when I am sick. You had mentioned that you couldn't get yours up to 160? I have had to add 35-45 seconds/mile to my pace when running just to keep things normal. Also, while I have been sick, my resting HR has been up about 6 or 7 beats/minute all day. And, talk about fatigue? can't wait to go to bed, which is what I am going to do right now....lol PS took 3 full days off. Feeling a little stir crazy but better as I finally got a Z Pack. Might try to start up tomorrow again.

Elevated resting HR can be one of the symptoms of overreaching / under recovery / OTS.  A lingering cold that you can't seem to shake is another.  Extreme fatigue and can't wait to get to bed?  I'm sure that you're benefiting from 3 days without any training, good nutrition & hydration, and extra sleep.  My suggestion is that you be honest with yourself regarding whether that was enough time to get rid of the cold completely.  If not, take another day or three.  Staying healthy is always a higher priority than trying to increase fitness through training stress.  It's counter intuitive for most endurance athletes, but you'll perform better in the long run by prioritizing that way.

 

2016-01-21 4:10 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance
In one case, possible. Two were guys, though. It's really a stereotype that eating disorders are a female thing. I hung out with quite a few elite runners of both genders in my youth, and I'd say it was pretty common in both. And guys were more prone to just plain old poor nutrition-plenty of food, but probably not the right kind to fuel 100+ mile weeks or optimize health.
2016-01-21 7:11 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by Left Brain

Don and Scott.......how common do you think OTS actually is?  Admittedly, I don't know muchy about it and haven't seen it (that I know of) in any of the athletes I'm around who train extensively. 

LB -

I don't think anyone really knows.  That's part of the problem, there is very little empirical evidence indicating the prevalence of Functional Overreaching, Non-functional overreaching, or Overtraining Syndrome.  There isn't even agreement in the medical community on how to diagnose OTS.  A few years ago a study was done that looked at the prevalence of FO, NFO, and OTS in Swiss Elite athletes.  The study looked at 139 athletes, 95% of whom represented Switzerland Internationally in their respective sport.  63 males and 76 females filled out a 7-part online survey (this is part of the problem, no real studies have been done).  From those surveys, it was determined that 9% of the athletes had had OTS and 21% had NFO at least once in their athletic careers. (I don't accept that as proof of anything by the way, given the nature of the study and that it was a relatively small sample).

My personal suspicion is that the incidence of NFO and OTS is at least that high, if not higher among age-group triathletes, certainly among those training for HIM and IM distances.  When you consider we are talking about age-group athletes that are likely balancing training with a job, a spouse, and a couple little ones it is easy to see how the stressors can add up.  Right here in the forums on BT you regularly see the posts talking about up at 5:00 to run, then get the kids to school and off to work.  Get in a swim at lunch, family time in the evening then hop on the trainer after the little ones go to bed.  A few hours of sleep and do it all again.

There are A LOT of age-group triathletes that have no athletic experience or haven't regularly trained since high school or college.  A large percentage of those athletes are self-coached.  NO!  I am not saying that self-coached athletes are OTS waiting to happen.  I am saying that there are a lot of athletes that have light athletic backgrounds, full plates during the day with life and are pushing training to ridiculous levels to achieve their goals.

We (collectively as athletes) are attempting to achieve physiological adaptations (super-compensation) by applying training stress.  Athletes are often taking training to the very edge of functional overreaching.  It doesn't take very much to put an athlete over the edge into FO, NFO, or in extreme cases, OTS.

That is a really long way to say I don't have a percentage.  I think it is higher than is generally appreciated although I admittedly don't have evidence to support that position.  I also think that sickness or injury enters in and forces the athlete that may be on the verge of NFO or OTS to take time off - the bodies way of saying "back it down!"  (NO!  I am not saying every person that gets sick or injured is on the edge of OTS - sometimes shiot happens).

I will say that since I started working with an athlete recovering from Stage 3 OTS I have become keenly interested in the topic.  This athlete and I have had several discussions in which we have discussed previous training, etc.  The biggest takeaway for me has been that OTS is fairly easy to see in hindsight.  In real time however, it would have been FAR more challenging.  I've looked at training logs, and we've talked about life, family, work, training, races, performance increases, etc. The training appeared to be working - until it didn't work anymore - by then it was too late.  There is NOTHING I would have had this athlete do differently - yet the athlete still ended up with Stage 3 OTS.  My quest of late has been to determine what should be done differently.

2016-01-21 7:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by Left Brain

Don and Scott.......how common do you think OTS actually is?  Admittedly, I don't know muchy about it and haven't seen it (that I know of) in any of the athletes I'm around who train extensively. 

LB -

I don't think anyone really knows.  That's part of the problem, there is very little empirical evidence indicating the prevalence of Functional Overreaching, Non-functional overreaching, or Overtraining Syndrome.  There isn't even agreement in the medical community on how to diagnose OTS.  A few years ago a study was done that looked at the prevalence of FO, NFO, and OTS in Swiss Elite athletes.  The study looked at 139 athletes, 95% of whom represented Switzerland Internationally in their respective sport.  63 males and 76 females filled out a 7-part online survey (this is part of the problem, no real studies have been done).  From those surveys, it was determined that 9% of the athletes had had OTS and 21% had NFO at least once in their athletic careers. (I don't accept that as proof of anything by the way, given the nature of the study and that it was a relatively small sample).

My personal suspicion is that the incidence of NFO and OTS is at least that high, if not higher among age-group triathletes, certainly among those training for HIM and IM distances.  When you consider we are talking about age-group athletes that are likely balancing training with a job, a spouse, and a couple little ones it is easy to see how the stressors can add up.  Right here in the forums on BT you regularly see the posts talking about up at 5:00 to run, then get the kids to school and off to work.  Get in a swim at lunch, family time in the evening then hop on the trainer after the little ones go to bed.  A few hours of sleep and do it all again.

There are A LOT of age-group triathletes that have no athletic experience or haven't regularly trained since high school or college.  A large percentage of those athletes are self-coached.  NO!  I am not saying that self-coached athletes are OTS waiting to happen.  I am saying that there are a lot of athletes that have light athletic backgrounds, full plates during the day with life and are pushing training to ridiculous levels to achieve their goals.

We (collectively as athletes) are attempting to achieve physiological adaptations (super-compensation) by applying training stress.  Athletes are often taking training to the very edge of functional overreaching.  It doesn't take very much to put an athlete over the edge into FO, NFO, or in extreme cases, OTS.

That is a really long way to say I don't have a percentage.  I think it is higher than is generally appreciated although I admittedly don't have evidence to support that position.  I also think that sickness or injury enters in and forces the athlete that may be on the verge of NFO or OTS to take time off - the bodies way of saying "back it down!"  (NO!  I am not saying every person that gets sick or injured is on the edge of OTS - sometimes shiot happens).

I will say that since I started working with an athlete recovering from Stage 3 OTS I have become keenly interested in the topic.  This athlete and I have had several discussions in which we have discussed previous training, etc.  The biggest takeaway for me has been that OTS is fairly easy to see in hindsight.  In real time however, it would have been FAR more challenging.  I've looked at training logs, and we've talked about life, family, work, training, races, performance increases, etc. The training appeared to be working - until it didn't work anymore - by then it was too late.  There is NOTHING I would have had this athlete do differently - yet the athlete still ended up with Stage 3 OTS.  My quest of late has been to determine what should be done differently.

I appreciate your comments, and those from Don as well.  As a high school running prodigy I was pushed to extreme levels by my dad and others.  I was a broken athlete by the time my college career came around.......mentally and physically.  I ran hurt, sick, drained, and eventually done.  So, like you, when my son showed the same athletic promise and INTEREST, I spent a great deal of time and money finding people who would develop him and let him grow.  The value of their coaching and knowledge has left him primed to move on to the next level as he concludes his high school career.

Don and I traded a few PM's today regarding the topic (and my high regard for his advice on this board) and I related a recent story where my kid ran 5 really hard XC 5K's in 5 weeks, with daily swim practice as well.  Conference, Districts, Sectionals, State, and Nike regionals.  Each of his races were with a goal of moving on to the next race so the efforts were no joke.  Each of them right at 16:00....sometimes less, or more, depending on the course.  The night after the last race he developed a fever out of nowhere.  The next weekend he was slated to swim in the regional Sr. Champs meet for clubs in our region.  The day after the fever he went to swim practice and was a mess.  His swim coaches wanted more from him with the meet coming.(a non-taper meet to gauge training needs)  His triathlon coach called them and shut him down for what turned out to be 8 days......everyone got on the same page .....he slept for what seemed like non-stop in those first few days. FO, NFO, OTS???  Who knows.  But it took someone with that knowledge to say stop before a big problem developed.

As I said before.....I never really thought about over training in regard to AG athletes and the rest of their lives.......but it so obviously makes sense, when you consider what life stress does to people who don't train at all, that I can easily see the value of a coach who spends as much time looking for recovery opportunities as he/she does looking for ways to increase the load/stress to get faster.

The topic, over time, has actually changed my opinion on the need of coaching for AG athletes.  The right one would obviously be worth their weight in gold for improved performance and overall health....mental and physical.

Thanks for your reply.

PS - I still think the OP is just sick.

.

 



Edited by Left Brain 2016-01-21 8:14 PM
2016-01-21 8:58 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by Left Brain

 . . . As a high school running prodigy I was pushed to extreme levels by my dad and others.  I was a broken athlete by the time my college career came around.......mentally and physically.  I ran hurt, sick, drained, and eventually done. 

 . . . His triathlon coach called them and shut him down for what turned out to be 8 days......everyone got on the same page .....he slept for what seemed like non-stop in those first few days. FO, NFO, OTS???  Who knows.  But it took someone with that knowledge to say stop before a big problem developed.

PS - I still think the OP is just sick.

Back when I was swimming it was at the end of the era where we did "vomit sets."  By which I mean, if you weren't at some point literally hanging on the wall, hurling into the gutter, you weren't going hard enough.  Back then the mantra truly was "no pain - no gain."  Like you, I was very close to being done.  I was constantly sick, almost always fighting to stay awake, and pretty much hated swimming.  Fortunately new science began to emerge that said you didn't have to train that way and I was fortunate to go on to a fairly successful swimming career.  That really was what got me interested in coaching.  I knew intuitively there had to be a better way.  There had to be a way you could train for excellence while maintaining your health.

Glad JR got over it and glad he had the people around him that saw what was going on.  That one was actually pretty easy to see, but even so, when you are on the front lines in the middle of it, sometimes what is obvious isn't so obvious.

PS - You're probably right, the OP is likely just sick - but better safe than sorry.  Wouldn't you agree?

 



2016-01-21 9:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Sudden change in performance

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by Left Brain

 . . . As a high school running prodigy I was pushed to extreme levels by my dad and others.  I was a broken athlete by the time my college career came around.......mentally and physically.  I ran hurt, sick, drained, and eventually done. 

 . . . His triathlon coach called them and shut him down for what turned out to be 8 days......everyone got on the same page .....he slept for what seemed like non-stop in those first few days. FO, NFO, OTS???  Who knows.  But it took someone with that knowledge to say stop before a big problem developed.

PS - I still think the OP is just sick.

Back when I was swimming it was at the end of the era where we did "vomit sets."  By which I mean, if you weren't at some point literally hanging on the wall, hurling into the gutter, you weren't going hard enough.  Back then the mantra truly was "no pain - no gain."  Like you, I was very close to being done.  I was constantly sick, almost always fighting to stay awake, and pretty much hated swimming.  Fortunately new science began to emerge that said you didn't have to train that way and I was fortunate to go on to a fairly successful swimming career.  That really was what got me interested in coaching.  I knew intuitively there had to be a better way.  There had to be a way you could train for excellence while maintaining your health.

Glad JR got over it and glad he had the people around him that saw what was going on.  That one was actually pretty easy to see, but even so, when you are on the front lines in the middle of it, sometimes what is obvious isn't so obvious.

PS - You're probably right, the OP is likely just sick - but better safe than sorry.  Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

Yes I would....the truth is, at every/any level, there is very little on the line compared to rest/recovery.  I think that's the lesson.  Every single time he's been shut down he came back stronger.  It's the opposite of the way I was handled as a kid. 

Your point about it being obvious/not so obvious is also a great one......it's very easy to go the other way and say, "he almost came down with a bug but was able to fight it off because he's in great shape"......when that wasn't what the body was saying at all.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-01-21 9:16 PM
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