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Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR
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 2016-01-19 11:23 AM |
 Mojave Desert |  Subject: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHRI am getting back into triathlon starting with running. I am using a monitor and 910XT. I am trying to figure out my LTHR, but being an engineer, I may be over-analyzing. I ran a 5k in December about a month into training. My average heart rate was 171 for the last 20 minutes. My average pace for the entire race was about 9 min/mile (on dirt roads). Today I did the 30 minute LTHR test. My average HR for the last 20 min was only 161. (My pace was up to 8:20 for the full 30). Should I use 171 or 161 as my LTHR? Should I average? I'm 5'9, 200 lb (down from 250 in Sept, hoping for 175 eventually). I was at 208 for the race in Dec. Last time I was at 170 lbs. my race pace was 7:20 for a 5k, but I have no idea what the HR was. For more info, I seem comfortable under 148 I start having trouble talking in sentences at 154. I have been using those as my rough zones 1 and 2. For intervals, etc. I just try to shoot my HR up into the 160s. I know I need to keep testing every month or so, but how do you know if you ran hard enough? |
| 2016-01-19 1:03 PM in reply to: ktsdad |
 194  , North Carolina | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR It sounds like you are doing things right on. What is confusing you is that your 5k pace is actually above LT pace (Or it should be) so naturally your 5k pace and avg. HR during a 5k will be higher than when you do the last 20mins of the LTHR test. I would set my zones based on the results of your test (161) and I would also suggest using something like Trainingpeaks to set the pace zones as well. For running, training by pace as opposed to HR is a whole lot more accurate because so many things can effect HR on a given day (weather, fatigue, caffeine). That being said, I like to use HR as a secondary measure, especially on hills since pace will be slower even at a higher intensity. Also, yes, do your test every few weeks, especially early in the season because the zones will always be changing. You will find that as the season goes on your LTHR will start to plateau, but your pace should continue to increase at a given HR (like you are seeing now in your training). Sounds to me like you are on the right track! Here's a blog post I did back in Oct. about the whole thing. It should be informative... or at least an encouragement for you  https://triathlonpal.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/lthr-lactate-heart-rat... |
| 2016-01-19 1:13 PM in reply to: triathlonpal07 |
| Mojave Desert | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR Thanks, I've been using endomondo before I got my 910XT, now I am using both endomondo and Garmin Connect until I run my half marathon next month (I plan to switch to a triathlon plan at that time). After that I plan to transition to either Garmin Connect or Training Peaks with a link to BT (just linked yesterday). I'll seriously look at Training Peaks. Hopefully it won't eat my phone battery like Endomondo. Thanks for the advice. It's reassuring to know I'm in the right direction. I'm trying not to stress too much as my overall goals are just to be fit and eventually finish an ironman race with no specific time in mind. I say that, but finishing 4th in my age group at an Olympic Tri a couple of years ago brought out the competitor in me. I HATE 4th place! |
| 2016-01-19 2:50 PM in reply to: ktsdad |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR The 5k sounds like a race with others around and the later 30' LTHR test was on your own? If so, sounds like you were more motivated being around other people in the race and were able to push harder. This is not at all unusual. With a 9 min/mi pace in the 5k both runs were close enough to 30'. What is being used to set zones? Why they 148 & 154? |
| 2016-01-19 3:59 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Mojave Desert | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR No formula for the 148 and 154, just a seat of the pants feeling while I'm running. It seems I can run all day (or at least 2 hours) below 148 or so, and 154 or so starts to work towards a sprint. I haven't watched it in the 160s, but usually it starts rising quickly in the upper 150s and 160s. Again no formulas, just somewhat random observations. |
| 2016-01-19 4:11 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR Originally posted by ktsdad No formula for the 148 and 154, just a seat of the pants feeling while I'm running. It seems I can run all day (or at least 2 hours) below 148 or so, and 154 or so starts to work towards a sprint. I haven't watched it in the 160s, but usually it starts rising quickly in the upper 150s and 160s. Again no formulas, just somewhat random observations. what pace are you doing at 148 and 154bpm respectively ? Edited by marcag 2016-01-19 4:11 PM |
| 2016-01-19 5:44 PM in reply to: ktsdad |
Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR 5K pace is higher than LT. Or, at least it should be assuming that you've run that 5K for all you're worth. One of (there are many) definitions of LT; is the pace that you can sustain for 1 hour. The reason why there are 20 and 30 min LT tests, is because it's friggen hard to run at your maxLTHR for a full hour. My guess is that your LT is closer to 161 than 171. Although I personally never really find out what I'm capable of doing unless it's race day. some people can give it all they got on a training day. And- my guess is that your Z1 tops out in the 130s, and that 154 is probably Z3. Realize- that with regular training, these numbers will move in the next month or three. Especially if you just re-started endurance training. You'll be able to lift you LT quite a bit. Maybe 10beats or more.
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| 2016-01-19 7:35 PM in reply to: ktsdad |
Extreme Veteran 1332 | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR Friel does a LTHR based on a 30 minute test, taking the last 20 minutes, but does not include race situations, just hard training runs, so I wouldn't use your first example with 171 for your LTHR. As far as knowing whether you went hard enough, that can be tough, if you struggled to finish, you're likely about there, but it can take some practice and pushing, and a few failures from going too fast to know you're really at your limit in training. Same thing happened when I started doing 20 minute threshold tests on the bike. After the first few they got better, I went too easy at first, blew up a couple times, then started to really hit the right pace. Also, as you gain fitness, your LTHR can go up or down depending on how you are training. I find when I am training with more intensity and less volume, it goes up, whereas training low intensity, higher volume, it drops. As an example, 2 years ago I couldn't get my heart rate above about the 171/172 mark for training or races of about 45 minute or more, where this last year I had multiple times where I was actually in the upper 180, including a half marathon where I averaged something like 188/189, then the same thing in a cross country race near the end of the season. You may well have dropped your LTHR a bit, or it's the same and you were racing harder than you can train, or you simply didn't go hard enough in training, and there's no way we can know that, but you can experiment, find out, and then see a few times over the course of a race season or build how it's changing. |
| 2016-01-21 10:53 AM in reply to: #5162506 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR What was your total time for the dfirst ex race, and what kind of warmup did you do? |
| 2016-01-21 1:20 PM in reply to: ktsdad |
| 47 | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR Yeah just to tie up a few loose ends that have already been mentioned here: -The 30 min LTHR test is 30 minutes (with the HR from the last 20) because its on your own. -It represents the max effort you could sustain in an all out 1 h race (which is a very good proxy for LTHR) So, the point is that on your own, you're only capable of sustaining your max 1h effort (LTHR) for half as long. As others have said, that's why you should use the test result. |
| 2016-01-21 1:57 PM in reply to: ktsdad |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Confused about Heart Rate and LTHR Use the LT test number, using a race result will skew the zones due to the competition aspect. Same can happen in reverse thinking you can run a short race with HR, it can actually hold you back. IIRC, a soft rule one can approximate LT is to take 95% of a whole 5k HR average, 97% for a 10k. Your 171 (last 20') * .95 is 162, which is pretty close. 171 would be slightly lower for the whole 5k, especially if you started out cold on the 5k (lack of a cool warm-up). Your breathing sounds about right with the calc LT zones using 161. 1 - Recovery 106 - 136 2 - Extensive Endurance 137 - 146 3 - Intensive Endurance 147 - 153 4 - Sub-Threshold 155 - 160 5a - Super-Threshold 161 - 164 Someone stated that your LT will be changing, maybe, maybe not. My run LT from tests have all been within a 3 bpm range, obviously my pace for each was different depending on fitness at the time. My bike LT however has exhibited changes up to 7 bpm. Retest when you feel like you're ready and see how things line up again. |
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