General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Fast without speed work Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2016-02-02 6:36 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

User image

Seattle
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Originally posted by TJHammer I'm going to finally let my personal cat out of the bag. As basically a runner of up to 200 or so meters a clip, I never was big on running. Since triathlon, the majority of my run work is at just below threshold, threshold, and interval pace in some version of reps and repeats etc. Why? I average only 35-45 miles a MONTH and only run easy long pace when necessary. So most of my work is speed work. I am not blazing, but I brought my PR 5k down to 19 minutes in basically a year. That was by a guy who wastraining fast twitch 90% of the time for yearsssss And like dmiller said, this guy isn't logging exact numbers, for all we know he IS doing fartlek or paces that are speed work for his level

Impressive stuff, how are you avoiding being constantly injured?!

I do feel like I'm walking a fine line with that, especially since I still weight train. I try to nap alot, get extra rest in, and my diet and supplementation really addresses inflammation and free radical oxidation. I think these areas are often overlooked. dmiller, you really like bust'n my balls huh? It was a 5k race solo effort. I can't yet run a 19 in tri as of yet. I know you think I am bragging any time I post something on this forum, but I am not. I find guys like yourself etc. who have had continued fast success and progress inspiring. It's why I'm here.

Thanks for sharing this, it's kind of the flip side to what we are talking about. It's all about training load and you just happen to represent the other side, less time and volume and lots of quality! I imagine a little more volume and consistency and you would continue to see improvements.

 

My own experience has been this: when I began running, I ran a 26:XX 5K. I ran and ran some more, no speedwork, bringing my time down to 19:3X or so. Just from logging miles for a marathon. This seemed to be my approximate threshold for where I could get with just more, easy running. I plateaued about there and in fact, if I maintain my consistency and some volume I will run right around that time.

When I did training for shorter races and adding in some  specificity including lactic threshold workouts and vo2 max, I was able to  get that time down to 18:3x.

So yes, I got faster simply running easy and maintaining consistency and volume. But I could not (and still cannot) be my very fastest unless a percentage of my training load is of quality.



2016-02-02 7:16 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Donskiman Could be the guy just runs a lot. When I was 54 I averaged over 60 mikes/week for an entire year. My only fast running was during races. The following year at age 55 I set several local age group course records. Mostly on terrain not suitable for blazing fast PR times, but now 5 years later most of those records still stand. My build to that kind of mileage took several years, but I found the more I ran the faster I got. My average training pace became faster than my race pace from just a couple years before without it even seeming like I was running harder. Same thing with biking. I just rode lots of miles for many years. Even now within very few rides I can easily maintain 20+. Could I have been even faster by doing speed work? Probably, but I didn't like doing it and many of my friends hurt themselves by doing it. I read that logging higher mileage helps make physiological adaptations that benefit the cardio system in ways that may not be obtained otherwise. It's really not possible to log high mileage by running hard all the time. I tended to base my pace off race results and most of my running would be done at 90-120 seconds per mile slower than 5K race pace. So if my race pace was 6:30 the bulk of my training miles were 8:00-8:30. Racing was my speed work and I did a race at least every two weeks, and often more. For me it was how much could I do without having my body fail. For others it seems they seek ways to do the least they can. One thing most of the popular training plans often fail to mention is the elites are often running 70+ miles weekly just for 5K training. They are getting those physiological adaptations along with doing speed work, but typically the speed component only makes up a small percentage. People would likely freak out in the popular training plans were calling for that much mileage for a 5K, or well in excess of 100 for longer distances. A guy I work with runs 150-180 miles a week in the build for some of his races. Conversely another guy I work with only does hard runs in training, no easy runs. But he's also a former 2:12 marathoner with a huge number of miles under his belt. He just turned 55 and still runs 5K in sub 17. He did run big mileage in his 20-30s.

I watch a number of kids who are sub 15:00 5Ker's on the track.  None of them runs over 35 mpw or so, but it's quite a bit of speed and stress in those miles.....easy running is the smallest percentage.  Yes, I realize they are not elite 5K'ers, but I wonder how much of the thousands and thousands of yards of  swimming they do contribute to those physiological cardio adaptations you alluded to, if any.....or what moving to a more run focused training will yield for them.  I also don't think it's a coincidence that many of the kids who finish near the top of our State XC meet have swim backgrounds.

I think what you wrote is largely true........I'm always curious about what the benefits/hinderence of cross training will be on these kids I've been around as they continue with their careers.  Even the college coaches, as we talked to them during the recruiting process, were split.  Some wanted the fast kids who were running the biggest miles......some wanted nothing to do with those kids and wanted the kids who had built quite a bit of speed on relatively few miles. Some wanted them BECAUSE they cross trained, some wouldn't touch those who did.  It made no difference how strong or weak the program at the college was......the opinions were all over the place and VERY deeply rooted and strong.

This is a total side bar but you always reference swimming when you talk about this. What other sports are the lower mile kids using to build their fitness? I would assume the key is simply that the activity contribute to the physiological adaptation and that it be low impact so that you can do more of it. But is there anything else about swimming in particular? 

Since, for most/many of them, their first love is triathlon, they also bike.  Their bike workouts, during a run season like XC or track, consist of twice a week workouts for one hour.  The work is intense, with some short intervals that reach 800-1000W.  All of it is coached and done with their tested zones.  It's not an exaggeration to say they are ready to puke after most of them.  Again, low impact, very hard work.  The bike work changes again when running "season" is over.  This is 12 month per year training. The cycles of training within that year change with the seasons (XC, track, swimming, triathlon, and even some crit racing) BUT the crossover work NEVER stops.  There are always a ton of crazy hard efforts in every cycle, but much of it is very low impact on the body.

For swimming, and I've said it many times before.... many of them, my kid included, do massive kick sets at least once per week....especially, again, during run seasons.  I find it funny that many people think this can have no crossover to running, but wouldn't think twice about prescribing water jogging to keep run fitness when injured.  We're just taking it a step further......I believe, and most importantly, the guys who are doing it are convinced, that it is instrumental for their run times. 

Again, we are talking about kids who run less than 35 mpw, and mostly about 25, who can run 1:5X 800's, 4:1X miles, and 15:XX 5K's.  Yes, they are young, but the standard "knowledge" is that they don't run enough.  OK.......but why should they YET?

I had a very interesting conversation with a D1 track coach who was getting quite a bit of slack for not recruiting a local kid who is running 85-100 mpw and winning quite a few 5K XC races in 15:10-15:30.....he's not "fast" as in 800 or mile fast, but he is 5K fast.  I don't know what he can do on a track, but he can throw down those XC times on some very tough courses.  This coach said, "what am I supposed to do with a kid that can only run 15:10-15:30 on that kind of mileage?  That's fantastic for high school, but not for D1 XC or track, and how much faster will he get when he's already hitting that kind of mileage?"  he wanted the kids who may not be winning all the time, but could hit those low 16's on the kind of mileage my kid is running.......and he loved that the speed was already there for the shorter distances.  He said, "in 2 or 3 years, when I can get them to 75-100 mpw they will be running low 14's or better for 5K, and that's competitive here".  Other coaches don't feel the same, and are happy top take the kids who are blowing up the miles in HS.  I've tracked a few of them over the last 4 years.......many/most you never hear from again.  They did, indeed, run their best in HS, or ended up with nagging injuries that eventually became too much.

I think, as do others that have helped develop these kids, that swimming early, in a competitive and well-structured swim program, does promote the building of those metabolic systems that later help running, while saving their legs.  Jr has a lung capacity of 11.1 liters.......he didn't get it running 15-25 miles per week.....but you can sure see it on the 10th 400 that he can still turn in :58 in his track intervals.  Genetics?  Sure......but some very smart and forward thinking people have brought him along. 

Speed first with running.....the rest is just building and pushing that speed further.  As I have said, it is the complete opposite of the way I was handled as a young runner.

 

 



Edited by Left Brain 2016-02-02 7:19 PM
2016-02-03 1:10 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

User image


66
2525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Originally posted by TJHammer I'm going to finally let my personal cat out of the bag. As basically a runner of up to 200 or so meters a clip, I never was big on running. Since triathlon, the majority of my run work is at just below threshold, threshold, and interval pace in some version of reps and repeats etc. Why? I average only 35-45 miles a MONTH and only run easy long pace when necessary. So most of my work is speed work. I am not blazing, but I brought my PR 5k down to 19 minutes in basically a year. That was by a guy who wastraining fast twitch 90% of the time for yearsssss And like dmiller said, this guy isn't logging exact numbers, for all we know he IS doing fartlek or paces that are speed work for his level

Impressive stuff, how are you avoiding being constantly injured?!

I do feel like I'm walking a fine line with that, especially since I still weight train. I try to nap alot, get extra rest in, and my diet and supplementation really addresses inflammation and free radical oxidation. I think these areas are often overlooked. dmiller, you really like bust'n my balls huh? It was a 5k race solo effort. I can't yet run a 19 in tri as of yet. I know you think I am bragging any time I post something on this forum, but I am not. I find guys like yourself etc. who have had continued fast success and progress inspiring. It's why I'm here.

AND you weight train, woah!! I'd be in hospital within a week no doubt.

I guess this just goes to show that some regimes work/dont work for some people. Have you trained using low intensity aerobic levels and what was the outcome? For me low intensity, intervals, tempo and strength training in different configurations works pretty well - very tailored though and learnt over years of experimentation (and injury)

2016-02-03 4:09 PM
in reply to: marcag

User image


928
50010010010010025
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by mchadcota2

While I was running yesterday doing some intervals, I remembered something a guy told me. I called this guy to ask him how he was training because he went from beginner to top of the pack in a year. He's 36 years old. Started doing sprints and biking 17-18 mph and running 8:15-8:30 pace and in one year he was biking 23 mph, running 6:20 paces for sprints. Mind boggling to me. So I asked him what kind of speed work he did for running. He said "man I ain't ever done an interval before. I just go out and run whatever pace feels good.(he's a country boy). So my question is, how the heck do you get fast if you're not doing speed work intervals. Can you just go out and run at a comfortable pace, and do it enough that eventually a 6:00 pace feels comfortable? Doesn't make sense at all to me. Made me wonder if I'm wasting my time with speed work. I'm at about a 6:40 pace for sprint races and I've always done speed work. So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?


maybe you're not doing the right speed work ?

to your question, Ed Whitlock ran 6m40 miles in his marathon at the tender age of 73.
He says he does not do speedwork. He runs a lot though. And he did some when he was younger.



He says he does not do "traditional speed work" (i.e., track intervals) because it gets him injured. But he does run fast-- he does 5K races every few weeks in place of speed work.
2016-02-03 4:26 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by mchadcota2

While I was running yesterday doing some intervals, I remembered something a guy told me. I called this guy to ask him how he was training because he went from beginner to top of the pack in a year. He's 36 years old. Started doing sprints and biking 17-18 mph and running 8:15-8:30 pace and in one year he was biking 23 mph, running 6:20 paces for sprints. Mind boggling to me. So I asked him what kind of speed work he did for running. He said "man I ain't ever done an interval before. I just go out and run whatever pace feels good.(he's a country boy). So my question is, how the heck do you get fast if you're not doing speed work intervals. Can you just go out and run at a comfortable pace, and do it enough that eventually a 6:00 pace feels comfortable? Doesn't make sense at all to me. Made me wonder if I'm wasting my time with speed work. I'm at about a 6:40 pace for sprint races and I've always done speed work. So can someone explain the process of getting very fast without any type of interval training?


maybe you're not doing the right speed work ?

to your question, Ed Whitlock ran 6m40 miles in his marathon at the tender age of 73.
He says he does not do speedwork. He runs a lot though. And he did some when he was younger.



He says he does not do "traditional speed work" (i.e., track intervals) because it gets him injured. But he does run fast-- he does 5K races every few weeks in place of speed work.


yes I know. I have known Mr Whitlock and following his career since the 1970s. They were doing the 5kms races on weekends back then while training for the marathon. There was one year he did a LOT of them in prep for his marathon but overall he is a very very high volume, low intensity runner. And he wasn't doing the 200, 400 high speed stuff some of his training buddies were doing.
They were also running more than 100km per week as 50 year olds. He also weighed nothing.

Edited by marcag 2016-02-03 4:41 PM
2016-02-03 5:48 PM
in reply to: Triathlon_daddy

User image

Seattle
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Originally posted by TJHammer I'm going to finally let my personal cat out of the bag. As basically a runner of up to 200 or so meters a clip, I never was big on running. Since triathlon, the majority of my run work is at just below threshold, threshold, and interval pace in some version of reps and repeats etc. Why? I average only 35-45 miles a MONTH and only run easy long pace when necessary. So most of my work is speed work. I am not blazing, but I brought my PR 5k down to 19 minutes in basically a year. That was by a guy who wastraining fast twitch 90% of the time for yearsssss And like dmiller said, this guy isn't logging exact numbers, for all we know he IS doing fartlek or paces that are speed work for his level

Impressive stuff, how are you avoiding being constantly injured?!

I do feel like I'm walking a fine line with that, especially since I still weight train. I try to nap alot, get extra rest in, and my diet and supplementation really addresses inflammation and free radical oxidation. I think these areas are often overlooked. dmiller, you really like bust'n my balls huh? It was a 5k race solo effort. I can't yet run a 19 in tri as of yet. I know you think I am bragging any time I post something on this forum, but I am not. I find guys like yourself etc. who have had continued fast success and progress inspiring. It's why I'm here.

AND you weight train, woah!! I'd be in hospital within a week no doubt.

I guess this just goes to show that some regimes work/dont work for some people. Have you trained using low intensity aerobic levels and what was the outcome? For me low intensity, intervals, tempo and strength training in different configurations works pretty well - very tailored though and learnt over years of experimentation (and injury)

Curious about the weight training comment. Do you feel weight training inhibits speed?


2016-02-03 5:55 PM
in reply to: 0

User image


538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Originally posted by TJHammer I'm going to finally let my personal cat out of the bag. As basically a runner of up to 200 or so meters a clip, I never was big on running. Since triathlon, the majority of my run work is at just below threshold, threshold, and interval pace in some version of reps and repeats etc. Why? I average only 35-45 miles a MONTH and only run easy long pace when necessary. So most of my work is speed work. I am not blazing, but I brought my PR 5k down to 19 minutes in basically a year. That was by a guy who wastraining fast twitch 90% of the time for yearsssss And like dmiller said, this guy isn't logging exact numbers, for all we know he IS doing fartlek or paces that are speed work for his level

Impressive stuff, how are you avoiding being constantly injured?!

I do feel like I'm walking a fine line with that, especially since I still weight train. I try to nap alot, get extra rest in, and my diet and supplementation really addresses inflammation and free radical oxidation. I think these areas are often overlooked. dmiller, you really like bust'n my balls huh? It was a 5k race solo effort. I can't yet run a 19 in tri as of yet. I know you think I am bragging any time I post something on this forum, but I am not. I find guys like yourself etc. who have had continued fast success and progress inspiring. It's why I'm here.

AND you weight train, woah!! I'd be in hospital within a week no doubt.

I guess this just goes to show that some regimes work/dont work for some people. Have you trained using low intensity aerobic levels and what was the outcome? For me low intensity, intervals, tempo and strength training in different configurations works pretty well - very tailored though and learnt over years of experimentation (and injury)




I won't lie, over the last 6 months volume has increased and duration of runs as well, in an 80-85% range effort. What would be a longer distance pace for me for my current level (VDOT). Clearly it's a progressive endurance necessity, much of which everyone is familiar with here. Those types of runs aren't speed building workouts as per the topic of this thread.
Side note re: doing this with weight training: A common phrase used referencing muscle development as it pertains to aerobic endurance capacity is "Unnecessary muscle." There is a lot of truth to this in that more muscle uses more oxygen and nutrients etc etc. I desire to keep the muscle I've spent years having built; speed work (shorter durations, lower volume, higher intensities) actually helps minimize muscle loss and boost testosterone a bit. The use of long endurance work is used for light recovery and progressively for endurance according to feel. The only way I've learned to minimize muscle degradation and maintain fullness. It's not a common topic for discussion on this or slow twitch forums. *Really feel alone in this regard. There's good reason why there are barely any aesthetically muscular 200lb triathletes with good times

As asalzwed also said, quality over quantity helps with muscle maintenance as well.
*Weight training CAN inhibit speed to an extent. It all depends on distance and duration. If resistance is done heavily there is residual soreness and fatigue and WILL result in diminished performance. I think it's very difficult to near impossilble to build significant muscle mass while serious triathlon training, therefore, the inhibiting factor would be simply from too hard of weight training itself (i.e. heavy weights to failure, especially big heavy movements like squats, deadlifts, etc) No reason however, that proper SUPPLEMENTAL weight training for balance, strength flexibility etc can't be done without inhibiting speed/endurance. A former student of mine working on qualifying for Rio in the 110m hurdles. He weight trains and uses plyometric work as well.

Edited by TJHammer 2016-02-03 6:12 PM
2016-02-09 3:43 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Expert
2555
20005002525
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Donskiman Could be the guy just runs a lot. When I was 54 I averaged over 60 mikes/week for an entire year. My only fast running was during races. The following year at age 55 I set several local age group course records. Mostly on terrain not suitable for blazing fast PR times, but now 5 years later most of those records still stand. My build to that kind of mileage took several years, but I found the more I ran the faster I got. My average training pace became faster than my race pace from just a couple years before without it even seeming like I was running harder. Same thing with biking. I just rode lots of miles for many years. Even now within very few rides I can easily maintain 20+. Could I have been even faster by doing speed work? Probably, but I didn't like doing it and many of my friends hurt themselves by doing it. I read that logging higher mileage helps make physiological adaptations that benefit the cardio system in ways that may not be obtained otherwise. It's really not possible to log high mileage by running hard all the time. I tended to base my pace off race results and most of my running would be done at 90-120 seconds per mile slower than 5K race pace. So if my race pace was 6:30 the bulk of my training miles were 8:00-8:30. Racing was my speed work and I did a race at least every two weeks, and often more. For me it was how much could I do without having my body fail. For others it seems they seek ways to do the least they can. One thing most of the popular training plans often fail to mention is the elites are often running 70+ miles weekly just for 5K training. They are getting those physiological adaptations along with doing speed work, but typically the speed component only makes up a small percentage. People would likely freak out in the popular training plans were calling for that much mileage for a 5K, or well in excess of 100 for longer distances. A guy I work with runs 150-180 miles a week in the build for some of his races. Conversely another guy I work with only does hard runs in training, no easy runs. But he's also a former 2:12 marathoner with a huge number of miles under his belt. He just turned 55 and still runs 5K in sub 17. He did run big mileage in his 20-30s.

I watch a number of kids who are sub 15:00 5Ker's on the track.  None of them runs over 35 mpw or so, but it's quite a bit of speed and stress in those miles.....easy running is the smallest percentage.  Yes, I realize they are not elite 5K'ers, but I wonder how much of the thousands and thousands of yards of  swimming they do contribute to those physiological cardio adaptations you alluded to, if any.....or what moving to a more run focused training will yield for them.  I also don't think it's a coincidence that many of the kids who finish near the top of our State XC meet have swim backgrounds.

I think what you wrote is largely true........I'm always curious about what the benefits/hinderence of cross training will be on these kids I've been around as they continue with their careers.  Even the college coaches, as we talked to them during the recruiting process, were split.  Some wanted the fast kids who were running the biggest miles......some wanted nothing to do with those kids and wanted the kids who had built quite a bit of speed on relatively few miles. Some wanted them BECAUSE they cross trained, some wouldn't touch those who did.  It made no difference how strong or weak the program at the college was......the opinions were all over the place and VERY deeply rooted and strong.




My response was geared toward the OP, which was observing what someone in their 30s was doing. For the most part, high school kids don't train the same as college runners and elites. 15:xx is great in high school, but not stellar in college and would be last place in an elite race. It wouldn't be advisable to have high school kids train the same as older guys.

It was also based on my observation that some people can get much faster without a high focus on speed training. The guy being referenced in the OP could have been one of those people. Becoming fast enough to do well in local races doesn't necessarily translate into doing well against more well trained people.
2016-02-09 7:45 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by Donskiman
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Donskiman Could be the guy just runs a lot. When I was 54 I averaged over 60 mikes/week for an entire year. My only fast running was during races. The following year at age 55 I set several local age group course records. Mostly on terrain not suitable for blazing fast PR times, but now 5 years later most of those records still stand. My build to that kind of mileage took several years, but I found the more I ran the faster I got. My average training pace became faster than my race pace from just a couple years before without it even seeming like I was running harder. Same thing with biking. I just rode lots of miles for many years. Even now within very few rides I can easily maintain 20+. Could I have been even faster by doing speed work? Probably, but I didn't like doing it and many of my friends hurt themselves by doing it. I read that logging higher mileage helps make physiological adaptations that benefit the cardio system in ways that may not be obtained otherwise. It's really not possible to log high mileage by running hard all the time. I tended to base my pace off race results and most of my running would be done at 90-120 seconds per mile slower than 5K race pace. So if my race pace was 6:30 the bulk of my training miles were 8:00-8:30. Racing was my speed work and I did a race at least every two weeks, and often more. For me it was how much could I do without having my body fail. For others it seems they seek ways to do the least they can. One thing most of the popular training plans often fail to mention is the elites are often running 70+ miles weekly just for 5K training. They are getting those physiological adaptations along with doing speed work, but typically the speed component only makes up a small percentage. People would likely freak out in the popular training plans were calling for that much mileage for a 5K, or well in excess of 100 for longer distances. A guy I work with runs 150-180 miles a week in the build for some of his races. Conversely another guy I work with only does hard runs in training, no easy runs. But he's also a former 2:12 marathoner with a huge number of miles under his belt. He just turned 55 and still runs 5K in sub 17. He did run big mileage in his 20-30s.

I watch a number of kids who are sub 15:00 5Ker's on the track.  None of them runs over 35 mpw or so, but it's quite a bit of speed and stress in those miles.....easy running is the smallest percentage.  Yes, I realize they are not elite 5K'ers, but I wonder how much of the thousands and thousands of yards of  swimming they do contribute to those physiological cardio adaptations you alluded to, if any.....or what moving to a more run focused training will yield for them.  I also don't think it's a coincidence that many of the kids who finish near the top of our State XC meet have swim backgrounds.

I think what you wrote is largely true........I'm always curious about what the benefits/hinderence of cross training will be on these kids I've been around as they continue with their careers.  Even the college coaches, as we talked to them during the recruiting process, were split.  Some wanted the fast kids who were running the biggest miles......some wanted nothing to do with those kids and wanted the kids who had built quite a bit of speed on relatively few miles. Some wanted them BECAUSE they cross trained, some wouldn't touch those who did.  It made no difference how strong or weak the program at the college was......the opinions were all over the place and VERY deeply rooted and strong.

My response was geared toward the OP, which was observing what someone in their 30s was doing. For the most part, high school kids don't train the same as college runners and elites. 15:xx is great in high school, but not stellar in college and would be last place in an elite race. It wouldn't be advisable to have high school kids train the same as older guys. It was also based on my observation that some people can get much faster without a high focus on speed training. The guy being referenced in the OP could have been one of those people. Becoming fast enough to do well in local races doesn't necessarily translate into doing well against more well trained people.

Yes, I know what HS times are compared to college times.  And, if you look back, you'll see I said sub 15 on a track....quite a bit sub 15 actually.  And some , but not all, HS kids who are at the top of the heap train exactly like college runners do, which was part of the point of that post.....if they do, and can only get to 15:XX then yeah, not much more you can do with them.

My point was that swimming very high yardage at very high HR with very big kick sets absolutely transfers over to fast running.  You can pretend that sub 15 minute 5k's is not that fast on 25-35 miles per week.....but you won't find many run coaches who agree with you.

In the end, there are a number of ways to get faster.....running more miles is just one of them...and fastER is not necessarily fast, and possibly not as fast as someone could get on a more varied program.

As for your last point......I said the same and I agree with you.  He's not THAT fast......but maybe he could be. (could have been)



Edited by Left Brain 2016-02-09 7:46 PM
2016-02-10 5:52 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Left Brain
Yes, I know what HS times are compared to college times.  And, if you look back, you'll see I said sub 15 on a track....quite a bit sub 15 actually.  And some , but not all, HS kids who are at the top of the heap train exactly like college runners do, which was part of the point of that post.....if they do, and can only get to 15:XX then yeah, not much more you can do with them.

My point was that swimming very high yardage at very high HR with very big kick sets absolutely transfers over to fast running.  You can pretend that sub 15 minute 5k's is not that fast on 25-35 miles per week.....but you won't find many run coaches who agree with you.

In the end, there are a number of ways to get faster.....running more miles is just one of them...and fastER is not necessarily fast, and possibly not as fast as someone could get on a more varied program.



What is Jr running on the 5k indoor ?
2016-02-10 9:02 AM
in reply to: Left Brain


1660
10005001002525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

I think it's far, far, more likely that Jr. was fast because he was born that way and responds very well to even minimal run mileage training, than from the magic of kick sets. Sure, swimming helps with the cardio, but kick sets don't help leg speed or leg endurance required for running.  

 

How fast was Jr. running before doing all these kick sets? In fact, how fast did he go in his first few races, ever? I ask because I doubt they were 20+ min 5ks or MOP triathlete times, despite his lack of swim/run training or experience.



2016-02-10 1:21 PM
in reply to: yazmaster


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
I think swimming helps cardio/respiratory but won't help your muscles and neuro. I noticed when I started swimming my breathing changed during my runs. I had a slower more controlled breath and often my legs would tire out before my heart and lungs. I think back in nov. I was almost exclusively swimming with little running and I was hoping the swimming would keep my times down but it don't recall it helping much. I still had to break my running muscles back in.
2016-02-10 2:10 PM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain Yes, I know what HS times are compared to college times.  And, if you look back, you'll see I said sub 15 on a track....quite a bit sub 15 actually.  And some , but not all, HS kids who are at the top of the heap train exactly like college runners do, which was part of the point of that post.....if they do, and can only get to 15:XX then yeah, not much more you can do with them.

My point was that swimming very high yardage at very high HR with very big kick sets absolutely transfers over to fast running.  You can pretend that sub 15 minute 5k's is not that fast on 25-35 miles per week.....but you won't find many run coaches who agree with you.

In the end, there are a number of ways to get faster.....running more miles is just one of them...and fastER is not necessarily fast, and possibly not as fast as someone could get on a more varied program.

What is Jr running on the 5k indoor ?

He's not running any indoor this year except for a very early meet when he ran the 800 and mile for fun (not a strong field so pretty easy wins)......he has triathlons in Feb, March, April, and May, so he's more focused on that since his college is already set.  Besides, there is no indoor 5K for HS kids.  I'm sure he has some HS goals still as far as the 800 and the mile, but I don't know what they are and I doubt he'll even run the two mile more then once, and then only to get a base time. 

2016-02-10 2:14 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain Yes, I know what HS times are compared to college times.  And, if you look back, you'll see I said sub 15 on a track....quite a bit sub 15 actually.  And some , but not all, HS kids who are at the top of the heap train exactly like college runners do, which was part of the point of that post.....if they do, and can only get to 15:XX then yeah, not much more you can do with them.

My point was that swimming very high yardage at very high HR with very big kick sets absolutely transfers over to fast running.  You can pretend that sub 15 minute 5k's is not that fast on 25-35 miles per week.....but you won't find many run coaches who agree with you.

In the end, there are a number of ways to get faster.....running more miles is just one of them...and fastER is not necessarily fast, and possibly not as fast as someone could get on a more varied program.

What is Jr running on the 5k indoor ?

He's not running any indoor this year except for a very early meet when he ran the 800 and mile for fun (not a strong field so pretty easy wins)......he has triathlons in Feb, March, April, and May, so he's more focused on that since his college is already set.  Besides, there is no indoor 5K for HS kids.  I'm sure he has some HS goals still as far as the 800 and the mile, but I don't know what they are and I doubt he'll even run the two mile more then once, and then only to get a base time. 




Curious then, how do you determine these kids are running sub 15 ?
Their 800, 1mile and 3200m results don't correlate with a sub 15.
2016-02-10 2:24 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by yazmaster

I think it's far, far, more likely that Jr. was fast because he was born that way and responds very well to even minimal run mileage training, than from the magic of kick sets. Sure, swimming helps with the cardio, but kick sets don't help leg speed or leg endurance required for running.  

 

How fast was Jr. running before doing all these kick sets? In fact, how fast did he go in his first few races, ever? I ask because I doubt they were 20+ min 5ks or MOP triathlete times, despite his lack of swim/run training or experience.

I have no idea.  He didn't run a stand alone 5K for time until he was 17 (other than XC).  And the 4th AG triathlon race he ever ran, or maybe 5th....I don't remember (except for Ironkids LOL ) was AG Sprint Nationals where he finished 5th overall.  He was 15.  What I know is that he swims 1.2 - 1.5 million yards per year.  It's his main training tool.  He runs about 3 or 4 hours a week and bikes 2 or 3 hours.  His long run now is 9 miles......his pace last week for that was 6:21/mile.  That's his "long easy" run for the week. (yes, his coach wants him to slow that down some) His FTP on the bike is 345W.  I'm sure the swimming has nothing to do with any of that.

 



Edited by Left Brain 2016-02-10 2:29 PM
2016-02-10 2:44 PM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain Yes, I know what HS times are compared to college times.  And, if you look back, you'll see I said sub 15 on a track....quite a bit sub 15 actually.  And some , but not all, HS kids who are at the top of the heap train exactly like college runners do, which was part of the point of that post.....if they do, and can only get to 15:XX then yeah, not much more you can do with them.

My point was that swimming very high yardage at very high HR with very big kick sets absolutely transfers over to fast running.  You can pretend that sub 15 minute 5k's is not that fast on 25-35 miles per week.....but you won't find many run coaches who agree with you.

In the end, there are a number of ways to get faster.....running more miles is just one of them...and fastER is not necessarily fast, and possibly not as fast as someone could get on a more varied program.

What is Jr running on the 5k indoor ?

He's not running any indoor this year except for a very early meet when he ran the 800 and mile for fun (not a strong field so pretty easy wins)......he has triathlons in Feb, March, April, and May, so he's more focused on that since his college is already set.  Besides, there is no indoor 5K for HS kids.  I'm sure he has some HS goals still as far as the 800 and the mile, but I don't know what they are and I doubt he'll even run the two mile more then once, and then only to get a base time. 

Curious then, how do you determine these kids are running sub 15 ? Their 800, 1mile and 3200m results don't correlate with a sub 15.

Sure they are.  The 800 is 1:54, the mile is 4:16, and the 5K XC is 15:30 - 15:58 on a hilly course.  Hell, last year the Jr. Worlds Triathlon got turned into a duathlon and the entire front pack of 20 was just in ~14:57....on the road.  (you could argue with Bobby Mcghee about it.....he measured it after the race)  I had a discussion with Jrs. future college coach about how triathlon and college running will mesh and he has his conservatively running 3:45 1500 and 14:30 5K as a sophomore......not winning any NCAA championships, but competing and solidly working toward FOP triathlon times at a very high level.  You know......run coaches tend to know this stuff. It's better info then you get from internet chat boards.    The next few years will tell all for these kids.......some will make it through, some won't.  It'll be interesting for me to watch since I have watched these kids race for 5 years and know their individual training habits.l



2016-02-10 3:15 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


1660
10005001002525
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster

I think it's far, far, more likely that Jr. was fast because he was born that way and responds very well to even minimal run mileage training, than from the magic of kick sets. Sure, swimming helps with the cardio, but kick sets don't help leg speed or leg endurance required for running.  

 

How fast was Jr. running before doing all these kick sets? In fact, how fast did he go in his first few races, ever? I ask because I doubt they were 20+ min 5ks or MOP triathlete times, despite his lack of swim/run training or experience.

I have no idea.  He didn't run a stand alone 5K for time until he was 17 (other than XC).  And the 4th AG triathlon race he ever ran, or maybe 5th....I don't remember (except for Ironkids LOL ) was AG Sprint Nationals where he finished 5th overall.  He was 15.  What I know is that he swims 1.2 - 1.5 million yards per year.  It's his main training tool.  He runs about 3 or 4 hours a week and bikes 2 or 3 hours.  His long run now is 9 miles......his pace last week for that was 6:21/mile.  That's his "long easy" run for the week. (yes, his coach wants him to slow that down some) His FTP on the bike is 345W.  I'm sure the swimming has nothing to do with any of that.

 

 

Come on - you know EXACTLY how fast he ran for those races. How fast did he go in those earlier races? I'm sure you know at least to the minute.

2016-02-10 3:25 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain Yes, I know what HS times are compared to college times.  And, if you look back, you'll see I said sub 15 on a track....quite a bit sub 15 actually.  And some , but not all, HS kids who are at the top of the heap train exactly like college runners do, which was part of the point of that post.....if they do, and can only get to 15:XX then yeah, not much more you can do with them.

My point was that swimming very high yardage at very high HR with very big kick sets absolutely transfers over to fast running.  You can pretend that sub 15 minute 5k's is not that fast on 25-35 miles per week.....but you won't find many run coaches who agree with you.

In the end, there are a number of ways to get faster.....running more miles is just one of them...and fastER is not necessarily fast, and possibly not as fast as someone could get on a more varied program.

What is Jr running on the 5k indoor ?

He's not running any indoor this year except for a very early meet when he ran the 800 and mile for fun (not a strong field so pretty easy wins)......he has triathlons in Feb, March, April, and May, so he's more focused on that since his college is already set.  Besides, there is no indoor 5K for HS kids.  I'm sure he has some HS goals still as far as the 800 and the mile, but I don't know what they are and I doubt he'll even run the two mile more then once, and then only to get a base time. 

Curious then, how do you determine these kids are running sub 15 ? Their 800, 1mile and 3200m results don't correlate with a sub 15.

Sure they are.  The 800 is 1:54, the mile is 4:16, and the 5K XC is 15:30 - 15:58 on a hilly course.  Hell, last year the Jr. Worlds Triathlon got turned into a duathlon and the entire front pack of 20 was just in ~14:57....on the road.  (you could argue with Bobby Mcghee about it.....he measured it after the race)  I had a discussion with Jrs. future college coach about how triathlon and college running will mesh and he has his conservatively running 3:45 1500 and 14:30 5K as a sophomore......not winning any NCAA championships, but competing and solidly working toward FOP triathlon times at a very high level.  You know......run coaches tend to know this stuff. It's better info then you get from internet chat boards.    The next few years will tell all for these kids.......some will make it through, some won't.  It'll be interesting for me to watch since I have watched these kids race for 5 years and know their individual training habits.l




oK, the internet needs updating :-)

they have him have him at 800m in 1:54:27, his best 1600m 4:19:59 and 3200m 9:29.27. That correlates to at best 15:30ish split on an accurate course, ie not a triathlon


Edited by marcag 2016-02-10 3:30 PM
2016-02-11 6:13 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by yazmaster

I think it's far, far, more likely that Jr. was fast because he was born that way and responds very well to even minimal run mileage training, than from the magic of kick sets. Sure, swimming helps with the cardio, but kick sets don't help leg speed or leg endurance required for running.  

 

How fast was Jr. running before doing all these kick sets? In fact, how fast did he go in his first few races, ever? I ask because I doubt they were 20+ min 5ks or MOP triathlete times, despite his lack of swim/run training or experience.

I have no idea.  He didn't run a stand alone 5K for time until he was 17 (other than XC).  And the 4th AG triathlon race he ever ran, or maybe 5th....I don't remember (except for Ironkids LOL ) was AG Sprint Nationals where he finished 5th overall.  He was 15.  What I know is that he swims 1.2 - 1.5 million yards per year.  It's his main training tool.  He runs about 3 or 4 hours a week and bikes 2 or 3 hours.  His long run now is 9 miles......his pace last week for that was 6:21/mile.  That's his "long easy" run for the week. (yes, his coach wants him to slow that down some) His FTP on the bike is 345W.  I'm sure the swimming has nothing to do with any of that.

 




3 or 4 hours a week is quite a lot of running when you can cover that kind of distance. I'm sure the swimming helps but I think 3-4 hours of running is providing the most significant results on his feet. Kind of common sense but I'm sure swimming provides at least a dot or 2 to connect among the dozen. If I'm understanding that you are curious that they are related.
2016-02-11 9:07 PM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Extreme Veteran
3025
2000100025
Maryland
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

3 or 4 hours a week isn't much, in my last run block i was running 8-10

2016-02-12 6:09 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by dmiller5

3 or 4 hours a week isn't much, in my last run block i was running 8-10




Dave, of those 8 to 10hour, how much was speed work ?

By speed I mean anything under threshold


2016-02-12 8:32 AM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Extreme Veteran
3025
2000100025
Maryland
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

well I have been doing about 3 miles at threshold every week, and strides in 1 workout. so we could just call it a half hour.  That would put me at about 5%-6%.  As race season approaches that volume will drop and the intensity will go up a bit at it will be more like 10%. 

 

2016-02-12 8:35 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work
Originally posted by dmiller5

well I have been doing about 3 miles at threshold every week, and strides in 1 workout. so we could just call it a half hour.  That would put me at about 5%-6%.  As race season approaches that volume will drop and the intensity will go up a bit at it will be more like 10%. 

 




makes sense. thanks
2016-02-13 1:16 AM
in reply to: mchadcota2

User image


47
25
Subject: RE: Fast without speed work

The way you put it, you place the two options (doing speedwork and not doing speedwork for the end result of getting fast) against each other. I don't think this is the right way to look at it. They're not mutually exclusive.

Yes, you can get fast without doing speedwork through sheer aerobic development. This requires a decent training volume (which is relative to the individual starting point), typically in zone 2. A great example of this would be what Mark Allen did for a long time before his first win at the IM world championships. 

However, you will eventually reach a plateau doing this kind of training, when your aerobic system is fully developed for the training volume you can put in. That's where speedwork can have a significant impact, even with a much lower volume. There's no doubt that to reach your full potential speedwork is needed at certain, strategically placed periods during your year or athletic development.

Another thing to consider, you don't need to go out and run in zone 2 for a year or more and hold off all speedwork until your fully aerobically developed. This is where periodization comes in. The benefits of speedwork generally tops out after around 8-9 weeks of consistently including it in your training. After that it makes no sense to continue doing that until you reach a new level aerobically, which can support new speedwork gains. 

This is why for short course triathletes the time to put in speedwork is during the 8-9 week build period leading up to an A-race. 

So in a nutshell (for short-course triathletes):

  • During base training, aerobic development in zone 2 is the prime focus
  • In the build phase, include speedwork to max out your potential for your a-race.

 

 

 

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Fast without speed work Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2