Cadence question

Originally posted by marcag

Optimal cadence is very dependant on the individual.
Learning to ride at a range of cadences is a skill that may be useful as conditions change, ie hill climbing, descents, accelerations....

But in terms of efficiency and durability, your body is pretty good at figuring out the optimal point

HR for a given wattage, for a short duration is not a good indicator of what is optimal.

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Cadence is a red herring.  

Originally posted by PRHTri

Optimal cadence on tri bike? Is there really such a thing or very dependent on the individual? I've been working a higher cadence on trainer (90+) but seem to put out more power working at lower cadence (@70) and keep HR about the same. Thanks for any guidance.

Originally posted by Triathlon_daddy

Read this!!

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/cycling-cadence-in-training-and-racing

 

Originally posted by mike761



The assumption in this was wrong from the start.

Bob and Bill are not identical!

Everyone is different and therefore everyone ideal cadence will also be different. Furthermore ones own ideal cadence can change over time with your body composition.

Read this, gives a method for testing your cadence.

http://coachlevi.com/cycling/high-vs-low-cadence-pedaling-speed/

Originally posted by marcag



Mike is right. Your body composition in terms of slowtwitch vs fasttwitch will be a major differentiator for what your body will select as natural cadence. Your body knows best what to use.

Originally posted by mike761



It's good to work those high cadence on the trainer some, but don't feel you need to ride at 90 all the time. You should be able to have a smooth pedal stroke right up over 100 to 110, some would say up to 120rpm, but there is no optimal.

My cadence is more like 75 to 80 most of the time, I do however pick the cadence up for about a mile before T2 it seems to help my legs transition to the run.

Originally posted by gsmacleod



I would say being comfortable even higher is preferable but would aim for at least 120rpm for smooth pedaling.

Shane

Originally posted by Hot Runner I have really struggled with this and I'm not sure the "body knows best". I'm probably very far toward the slow-twitch end of the spectrum, plus really lightweight by triathlete standards. Even with a lot of strength training and power work on the bike, it's going to be an uphill battle for me to push the big gears that muscular women who have 30+ pounds on me can push. But my "natural cadence" is a sluggish 75-80 RPM. I can sustain much better power and speed by doing between 90 and 100 RPM in a slightly easier gear (as evidenced by FTP tests). Plus my legs would presumably be in much better shape for the run. 90-99 RPM feels kind of unnatural, and I have to concentrate to maintain it. But when I do, I am faster, both in terms of power and speed on the road. I first discovered this prior to getting a power meter--I occasionally rode with a training partner (who has since left Vietnam) who was a former All-American 10K runner and very competitive cyclist (much stronger than me). Due to injuries, she now completely focuses on cycling. She and I are within an inch and five pounds of each other, similar lean, wiry builds. I noticed that her cadence was much faster than mine; I was only able to keep up when I switched to an easier gear and upped my cadence to match hers. The first time I did that, we were doing a 60 km ride at what was an easy ride for her and pretty much Oly race effort for me. I equaled my best Oly split, and then kept going for another 20 km at that pace. I was tired at the end but not destroyed as I expected, and managed a short brick run after. We were trading the lead regularly, so not entirely a drafting effect, either. In the past, I'd always bought the "listen to your body" mantra, but in the case of someone like me (lightweight, slow twitch) I'm wondering if that leads to suboptimal performance.

Originally posted by mike761 The assumption in this was wrong from the start. Bob and Bill are not identical! Everyone is different and therefore everyone ideal cadence will also be different. Furthermore ones own ideal cadence can change over time with your body composition. Read this, gives a method for testing your cadence. http://coachlevi.com/cycling/high-vs-low-cadence-pedaling-speed/

Originally posted by Hot Runner

I have really struggled with this and I'm not sure the "body knows best". I'm probably very far toward the slow-twitch end of the spectrum, plus really lightweight by triathlete standards. Even with a lot of strength training and power work on the bike, it's going to be an uphill battle for me to push the big gears that muscular women who have 30+ pounds on me can push. But my "natural cadence" is a sluggish 75-80 RPM. I can sustain much better power and speed by doing between 90 and 100 RPM in a slightly easier gear (as evidenced by FTP tests). Plus my legs would presumably be in much better shape for the run. 90-99 RPM feels kind of unnatural, and I have to concentrate to maintain it. But when I do, I am faster, both in terms of power and speed on the road.

I first discovered this prior to getting a power meter--I occasionally rode with a training partner (who has since left Vietnam) who was a former All-American 10K runner and very competitive cyclist (much stronger than me). Due to injuries, she now completely focuses on cycling. She and I are within an inch and five pounds of each other, similar lean, wiry builds. I noticed that her cadence was much faster than mine; I was only able to keep up when I switched to an easier gear and upped my cadence to match hers. The first time I did that, we were doing a 60 km ride at what was an easy ride for her and pretty much Oly race effort for me. I equaled my best Oly split, and then kept going for another 20 km at that pace. I was tired at the end but not destroyed as I expected, and managed a short brick run after. We were trading the lead regularly, so not entirely a drafting effect, either. In the past, I'd always bought the "listen to your body" mantra, but in the case of someone like me (lightweight, slow twitch) I'm wondering if that leads to suboptimal performance.

Originally posted by TJHammer

This is so true, I came into cycling and tri's from a fast twitch background of training; therefore, fast twitch Type II muscle really tends to lower cadence and push more power, BUT as you all know, there will be an earlier fatigue factor and thus a slowing of performance. In the beginning I had to be very cognizant of this and catch myself slowing cadence and driving too low a gear. It's not always good to let your body find it's "desired" cadence, In triathlon wouldn't being right on the border of low force/low velocity -> low force/high velocity be the key to triathlon endurance and "saving the legs?"

Originally posted by Hot Runner
I have really struggled with this and I'm not sure the "body knows best".
my "natural cadence" is a sluggish 75-80 RPM.

Originally posted by marcag
Ride 3x12' at threshold. Do one at 70rpm, one at 80, one at 90. Which one feels easier ?

Originally posted by Hot Runner
I have done something similar in a workout. In terms of my legs, definitely the higher cadence with easier gearing. My HR is slightly higher at the higher cadence, but there's not a big difference.

Originally posted by GMAN 19030
Cadence is a red herring.  Let your cadence fall wherever it does.

Originally posted by TJHammer

Shane, I get a little bouncy in the saddle over 105ish. Where are you advising to incorporate the 120rpm?

Originally posted by marcag



Yes saving the legs is good, but if you are low ST you might do better by finding the right slow/fast twitch combination.

One guy said it best "at a constant power, most people will naturally self select the lowest and most efficient cadence that activates a minimal amount of fast twitch muscle fibers".

Do TTs, do efforts at fixed power, you will naturally find your right cadence.
Your optimal cadence is probably found through a few TTs were you are trying to maximize power. Your body will decide which is best.

Now coming from a BB background you also know you can manipulate muscle strength and endurance by developing/atrophying type IIa, IIb muscle fibers. In the gym I think you guys do that by number of reps and % of RM ? Some say you can do the same thing by controlling the force you are putting o the pedals, which you can figure out from power and cadence. It's all part of strength training. Some say just go and climb a big hill.