General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Tips for swim leg? Rss Feed  
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2016-03-11 6:04 PM


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Subject: Tips for swim leg?
Hi All,

Long time reader, first time poster and all that!

My wife entered her first triathlon today. I was going to join her, but I am still a very weak swimmer and had to pull out as I wasn't confident finishing the swim leg.

A bit of background: I am reasonably fit, or was before I got married. My last half marathon was done in 2:03 back in 2009. My current 2km time is about 10m30 and my 5km time is about just over 30m. I haven't really been able to get back to a half marathon distance, but that's coming back slowly.

I haven't really cycled competitively but I ride to work every day and my 20km time fluctuates around 40m. I understand thats faster than most commuters, but pretty slow in most races.

The problem is my swim. I trained 2-3 times a week for 3 months but could never do more than about 150-200m without a long break. Thats not going to get me into any tri. In absolute frustration I decided to isolate the motions:

With a pull buoy, I can swim 1.1km in a hair under an hour. Not going to win any races with that time, but at least I can do the distance.

With a kickboard and no flippers I can do maybe 125. With flippers I can get maybe 300m.

Obviously, my kick is really letting me down.

I tried getting a swim coach, but the only openings in three local pools was before 5pm, or before work. Neither of those times work for me since I do the day care gauntlet.

So I'm hoping someone can tell me "Do this exercise X times a week, and this weight training Y times a week" for now, and once winter hits, there will be more swim coaches available.

My goal is 750/20km/5km, but if I have to do an enticer/beginner first to lower the swim, I can live with that.

So any tips to quickly build up my swim - especially my kick, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


2016-03-11 6:31 PM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Swimming is 80% technique. If you are swimming better with a buoy than without, you're probably dropping your legs and it is causing drag. It's not necessarily a kick issue (I'm a decent swimmer and if I can barely produce enough velocity to keep moving in a straight line when kicking). It's a body position issue. It's all guessing though. Have someone shoot a video of you swimming and post it on here.
2016-03-11 7:01 PM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?

It's most likely a balance issue.  I struggled a lot until I watched this BT video and then I had a better understanding what I needed to do.  For the balance part skip ahead to the 32 minute mark where Terry starts the balance discussion.  Dropping the hand and relaxing my head lifted my legs and I was able to drop 15 sec/100 and maintain the pace.  There's a lot if of good info provided, work on the balance then you can work on the other aspects such as the pull, rotation, etc.

FWIW, I basically flutter kick unless its the last 100 or of a swim leg or trying to pass someone. 

2016-03-11 10:15 PM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
As soon as you can, you really should get some swim help one on one from a smart swim technique instructor. If you find a good one, you will make ENORMOUS progress and rapidly. How to find a good instructor? A short post here about that:

http://darkspeedworks.com/blog-swimcoach.htm

But until then, head over to Amazon (or to your local library) and get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Immersion-Revolutionary-Better-Faster/d...

Read it cover to cover, and then practice, practice, practice. You will get better.
2016-03-12 8:54 AM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
If you can't find the time for regular coaching, you might see if you could arrange for just 1-2 swim lessons. Perhaps one lesson to get your technique analyzed and learn some more basics. Then a follow up lesson a couple of weeks later. That might be enough to get some issues corrected. Like others have said, technique/ form in the water are very important for swimming. Those of us from a running background often confuse this and try to "push through" or "power through" the swim, which leaves us slower and more exhausted.

If you're only able to swim 150-200m before a long break here are a couple of things to consider:

Are you running out of breath? You may not be breathing enough. Try increasing the frequency with which you breathe.

Body position? Are you lifting your head? (looking forward to the end of the lane instead of at the bottom of the pool). Generally, if you raise your head, your legs will sink.

Are you focused on going fast? If you're concentrating more on speed, rather than form, you're going to burn out faster. Make your next workout just about balance, form, and breathing. Don't worry about how slow/ fast you're going.

I found a cool app called Mr. Smooth (free edition). You can view a swimmer's technique from a variety of angles, etc.

Good luck and keep us posted!
2016-03-12 4:32 PM
in reply to: #5171696


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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Thanks everyone. I will try to get my wife to take a video of me next time I'm out.

Mostly I am out of breath, but I don't think I'm not breathing enough. I breathe fairly deeply every third breath.

I am trying to go as slow as possible but still keep enpugh forward momentum to keep straight, but I might not be as straight in the water as I think.

I had always assumed it was a weak muscle in the legs causing early fatigue, but if you guys pretty much unanimously agree it sounds like technique then a swim coach os even more important. Its not that I don't have time. It just seems like they don't have time after 5pm. I could try before work on the days that I dont do the childcare drop offs. But with a 8:30am start and not being a morning person, that could be tough. I guess I just have to want it enough.

Thanks again. Will post back in the next few days with a video.


2016-03-13 12:31 PM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Originally posted by Sunder1978

Thanks everyone. I will try to get my wife to take a video of me next time I'm out. Mostly I am out of breath, but I don't think I'm not breathing enough. I breathe fairly deeply every third breath. I am trying to go as slow as possible but still keep enoughh forward momentum to keep straight, but I might not be as straight in the water as I think.

I had always assumed it was a weak muscle in the legs causing early fatigue, but if you guys pretty much unanimously agree it sounds like technique then a swim coach is even more important. Its not that I don't have time. It just seems like they don't have time after 5pm. I could try before work on the days that I dont do the childcare drop offs. But with a 8:30am start and not being a morning person, that could be tough. I guess I just have to want it enough.


A few things. You want to start getting used to breathing every left arm pull, or breathing every right arm pull.

Also, with regard to your schedule, you will not need to get coaching every swim or every week. So with regard to work and childcare, it will help greatly if you can just compromise and make the effort to set up a few lessons. Then, with that new knowledge, just swim a few months, and then reassess. But, until then, get that total immersion book. It will help a lot. All the homework you do will pay off hugely. But you gotta do it.

2016-03-13 4:54 PM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Are you breathing out while your face is in the water? I found that I tensed up and held my breath until just before it was time to take a new breath.... This lead to a build up of tension and fatigue. This was, I think, a result of not being comfortable and relaxed.. I believe I was trying to hold in air to increase buoyancy, as I was unaccustomed to continuous swimming. Once I began to feel comfortable, things began to click.

Can you float face down, in a Superman pose, breathing out , and feeling 'weightless'? I do this at the end of each swim to reinforce a feeling of comfort...Even at 52 years of age, I find it fun and refreshing to play with my spatial awareness in the water, even tho I worry the Lifeguard may try to 'save me'.


2016-03-13 6:12 PM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
I was in the exact position you're in right now.............7,.5 mos ago. I can only tell you what I did.

1, I joined masters swim. There's no way I would ever swim enough or push myself like masters swim did.....and still does, to some extent. But, starting out, it was imperative that I do the classes.

2. Swim with that pull buoy ALL YOU WANT TO! Use it all the time, if you want to. It'll allow you to swim more and teach you what your body position should be. I mean use it a LOT. Plenty of time to wean off of it, after you're confident with it.

3. TJ Frye said a while back.....that a strong pull would take care of a lot of body position issues. I believe that, 100%.

4. When you can get through an entire swim class with the PB, start weaning yourself off of it a little at a time. I still use it when it's called for in class......and when I'm swimming a lot before a cycling trainer ride (we do all three disciplines on Sat mornings most weeks.

There'll be excellent swimmers that may disagree with what I'm telling you. They've never been where you are (where I've been). I'm not saying to not listen to them (at all). I'm just a 1:45/100 swimmer................who was right where you are a short while ago.

Good luck.
2016-03-13 9:39 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Since two different posters have already referred to Terry Laughlin's / Total Immersion video & book, I'd like to suggest that instead of the book Dark Speed suggested you go directly to the Ti website and get the latest self coaching manual & video set as a package. It's got all the most recent drills and technique that TI is teachign. The book is great background but has some outdated stuff that can get you a little stuck. The book has not been updated for over a dozen years and Terry has refined his teaching methods a great deal since then.

This is the package I recommend, which includes an updated eBook that essentially replaces the Amazon book link posted above:
Ultra-Efficient Freestyle Complete Self-Coaching Toolkit (HD DOWNLOADABLE PRODUCT)
http://www.totalimmersion.net/store/essential-skills-mp4-download.h...

2016-03-13 9:42 PM
in reply to: triosaurus

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Originally posted by triosaurus

Can you float face down, in a Superman pose, breathing out , and feeling 'weightless'? I do this at the end of each swim to reinforce a feeling of comfort...Even at 52 years of age, I find it fun and refreshing to play with my spatial awareness in the water, even tho I worry the Lifeguard may try to 'save me'.





One of our recent swimmers at a camp had a guard jump in and flip him over doing superman drill. When he told the guard he was practicing a drill ,the guard told him to kick his legs next time so they know he's alive!


2016-03-13 9:48 PM
in reply to: nc452010


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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?

I would actually caution against using the pull buoy 100% at your level of super-beginner swimming. 

 

THe OP clearly says he can already do like 1.1k continuously with the PB, but can't maintain 150-200m without. And furthermore, the proof is in the pudding - he clearly wasn't able to finish the swim comfortably on race day, despite his ability to cover similar distances with a PB.

 

I think you have to at a minimum, be comfortable swimming sans buoy for longer distances, at relaxed paces (and preferably better than that) before the PB isn't compensating for some serious form errors. 

 

It is true that there are some high level swim coaches (whom I agree with) who say 'use the pull buoy all you want! It's like the wetsuit!' but if you look at who they're training, they're NEVER raw beginners, and more often than not, FOP triathlon swimmers looking to further increase volume. For sure, you can ingrain some bad leg-drop habits if you're completely reliant on a PB to keep your legs from dropping a lot, even with the wetsuit assist.

2016-03-14 7:22 AM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Here's my issue with TI......and I absolutely respect that they've helped hordes of swimmers:

Nowhere in anything TI I've ever read or watched (I've bought two of their videos) does it tell the pupil to suck it up and swim hard. I never got ANY better at swimming, until I accepted that every swim session was gonna suck a little.........and sometimes it's going to suck a LOT.

End of rant.

2016-03-14 8:39 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Here's my issue with TI......and I absolutely respect that they've helped hordes of swimmers: Nowhere in anything TI I've ever read or watched (I've bought two of their videos) does it tell the pupil to suck it up and swim hard. I never got ANY better at swimming, until I accepted that every swim session was gonna suck a little.........and sometimes it's going to suck a LOT.

Yes, and no. Yes, TI has limited usefulness for more intermediate and advanced swimmers. But if a beginner swimmer reports that he/she can't swim more than about 150-200m without a long break, then they likely have a huge body drag problem. And that is where the basics of TI can help. A smart swim coach would, of course, help a lot more, but earlier in this thread I suggested looking at a basic TI book just as a stopgap measure until the OP could get some top-notch one-on-one help.

But, no, I don't think swimming should ever "suck". Ask almost any kid, most of them LOVE swimming. Sure, when you are swimming very fast, it will be tough (just like running intervals is tough, but kids LOVE running too). Training fast is tough, yes. But swimming (or biking or running) should never suck. If it does, then (1) either you're in the wrong sports, or (2) you need some help. And no shame in needing help, we have ALL been there.

Greg @ dsw

2016-03-14 8:41 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?

I'll jump in because I was a complete non-swimmer before 2008 - it takes a lot of work and patience - so good for you on getting to the pool and keeping on with trying.

there are lots of good things here already offered in the thread but here are some of my thoughts:

Although i didn't follow Total Immersion to the letter, I did look at the book and a few videos and there are some really excellent body position drills. Like 'pressing your buoy' where you'll learn to find how to get your legs up. Even my swim coach who was a pro triathlete would draw on TI drills for our coached swim sessions. No reason to discount the whole thing, as above. 

You also mentioned doing a try-a-tri and not wanting to but it is a great place to start! I did marathons before getting into tri so the super short distance didn't seem worth it but for getting comfort in the open water and experience of a group start they are really great. So definitely do one if you're worried about the distance. You'll still feel really accomplished when you make it through the swim

I agree with the others - just book a couple of lessons if you can - no need to do it all the time but it might be worth a couple of hours PTO or making some adjustments to fit it in a couple of times.  

I also had really good luck with the three month beginner swim program on here - Beginner swim program, month 1 - i used it once i had my lessons and felt okay to go on my own. 

ETA: link to swim program



Edited by juniperjen 2016-03-14 8:45 AM
2016-03-14 11:49 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
TI definitely suffers from a referral bias, yet what TI teaches is foundational to fast swimming. You can become a fast swimmer without learning TI, but all fast swimmers are doing a lot of things in common...more things in common than differently, primarily streamlining, balancing, good core control, and efficient propulsion.

There's a great article about a former olympic basketball player, Joe Stulac, who coached at the school where he taught math. Instead of coaching the senior team and trying to help players get collegiate placements, he coached the junior team. on skills, skills, skills ,and only 5-15 minutes of scrimmage at the end of practice. The skills he taught were still applicable to the top athletes of the sport, the main difference being the size, strength and sport maturity of the athletes he chose to work with.

Similarly, most people drawn to TI are more like those junior basketball players and need skill development. Joe Stulac could have easily coached a college team if he chose to. His knowledge & coaching skills apply across the board.

Terry's story parallels Joe Stulac's in that he developed 24 youth & YMCA national champions in the 17 years he coached competitive youth & collegiate swimming from age 20 to 37. He then shifted to teaching adults, using the same skills and techniques he'd been using and further refined them. Out of that emerged total immersion. In the midst of this at various times he's guest coached for Dave Marsh, Bob Bowman & Ira Klein.

A good, experienced TI coach can help beginners advance to intermediate and intermediate advance to, well, advanced swimmers regardless of their prior skills or experience. The make up of the lesson or practice session will vary. Sometimes you will have to "work" but you'll never find a TI coach that suggests it should "suck" while you're putting effort into learning and pace mastery.

I'm not saying by any means that it's the only method, but to discount it simply means you're only familiar with a slice of what's offered. Come to one of our open water camps or week long tri swim camps. If yu're an advanced swimmer you'll be with an advanced coach. My group of swimmers included 1 minute to 1:40/100m swimmers, while other groups had 2:30-3:00 swimmers. our coaches included those who work primarily with older adults to coaches who have swim 51 minute Ironman Swims, have held national age group records, swum many open water channels and even a coach who has done the triple crown of swimming.

Someone using the book dark speed recommended above, probably does not have the skills to self-coach to be an advanced swimmer. They will need outside input. That being said, none of our coaches use much of the drill the material in that book anymore b/c it's outdated, which is why i recommend the newer resources.



2016-03-14 11:52 AM
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Subject: double post
ignore

Edited by AdventureBear 2016-03-14 11:53 AM
2016-03-14 12:24 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: double post
It was me last year. Well, it was me last November too... I was barely making 50 yards...
The following plans helped me build endurance and "mileage". I did 900 yards last week

Start with "0 to 700":
http://ruthkazez.com/Zeroto1milePreamble/pre-zero.html

Once you are done with 700, go to "0 to one mile (1,650)":
http://ruthkazez.com/swimming/ZeroTo1mile.html

I read plenty of reviews for the above plans and it looks like it helped for bunch of people. Including my friend, to whom I recommended these just few weeks ago and he now does 600 easy.

As for the drag, what helped me was TI book and planks (for the core).
Good luck!
2016-03-14 4:02 PM
in reply to: Sunder1978

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?

In college I was entering triathlon as mainly a runner (who had become injured). Strong legs, weak upper body (relatively speaking). And I'd learned to swim as a youngster using the 6-beat kick. Great, until your strong legs are trying to do most of your propulsion, and sucking up most of your available oxygen. Even when I was making sure to exhale completely while my face was in the water, I was sucking wind at the pool edge after 100m.

Here's what I had to do -- for 6 weeks I swam ONLY with a pull buoy. I did that in order to UNlearn the 6-beat kick, and then I started all over again with a 2-beat kick. The difference was dramatic and instantaneous.

Just a datapoint.

2016-03-14 6:53 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
I like TI for learning good form. Once you have a technique foundation, you can progress to the "suck it up and swim harder" phase. Swimming harder with poor technique won't get you far.

Put me in the "don't use the pull buoy too much" camp, nc452010's success story not withstanding. If you can already pull 1000M+, but cant swim 200, the issue is almost certainly a combination of poor balance and a lack of core engagement (and/or swim-specific core strength) in the stroke. Continuing excessive pull buoy work will do nothing to help you with those two issues. It will actually make it harder for you to integrate the kick, as you ingrain a stroke divorced from the core and kick into your muscle and neural memory.

I was a swimmer in HS, but gave it up for 27 years. A little less than two years ago, I got back in the pool in an effort to get back into some semblance of shape. At first, I was exhausted swimming 150 meters. With the pull buoy, I could cruise for much longer. I didn't make real progress with the actual swimming endurance until I quit using the pull buoy as a crutch, resolving to use it only for the first 200 yards/meters of warm up. A year and a half later, I could do an IM distance swim (in the pool, but without wet suit) in under 54 minutes.

As for kicking with a kick board, I do almost none. Kinesthetically, kicking with a kick board bears very little resemblance to kicking as part of a freestyle stroke. Again, its a tool I use for warm up and that's about it. At typical triathlon distances and speeds, kicking will provide almost zero direct propulsive power. With proper technique, the power from the kick largely transfers to the stroking arm through the core.

Edited by gary p 2016-03-14 7:01 PM
2016-03-15 6:00 PM
in reply to: #5171696

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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?


2016-03-15 7:21 PM
in reply to: AndyEWU07


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Subject: RE: Tips for swim leg?
Thanks all for your replies.

I've been knocked around by a cold the last couple of days, so haven't been online, but I will start going through the material. TI seems to have a bit of a rep here, even if not everyone agrees, but for less than the cost of one lesson, I'm happy to fork out for it.

My local pools have signs up that people who have had respiratory diseases shouldn't swim for a week, and people with gastro diseases shouldn't swim for two, so out of courtesy to my fellow swimmers, I might delay making that video until next week.

On the bright side, I just bought the Samsung S7 which is totally waterproof, so I can ask my wife to take a video of me both from the side lines as well as one from under water to see if I can get a better view of what is going on.

Thanks again everyone for the tips. It looks like I will have a lot of browsing/reading/video watching to do before I get that video in.
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