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2016-04-07 2:38 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
We could have an official on the back of every bike making sure no one drafts off of you...



2016-04-07 2:44 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Left Brain

Or just allow drafting and move on.

And get rid of the swim...and the run...

Why would you do that?  I always get a kick out of the folks who have never done a draft legal triathlon (maybe you, maybe not) who think drafting somehow makes the bike leg less competitive. 

However.....allowing drafting on the bike would require  people who want to do well to be good swimmers.....so I get that part from people who do triathlon. 

LOL...perhaps you didn't understand where my sarcasm was coming from.  It's not that I think making the bike draft legal ruins triathlon...it's that I don't like running and swimming...to the point where I don't do it anymore.  Being that I am a bike racer now...I am all for draft legal...as long as there is no swim or run.  

You know.....the first thing I wrote was, "why would you do that, then it would just be a bike race.....oh, wait"........I think my sarcasm meter was not zeroed and I headed off in another direction after editing.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-04-07 2:45 PM
2016-04-07 4:24 PM
in reply to: McFuzz

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by marti038 I'd settle for a clear definition from a race official of what is and isn't considered drafting.Seems like they all have their own point of view. I'd also like if people didn't pass me, only to slow down after they've completed the pass. Can't tell you how much that hacks me off.

I actually had some (ahem) conversation a few years ago with BT'ers who officiated as well as the head of USAT officiating.  

The officials policing the course don't follow the rules as written about the drafting zone, which is specified as (section 5.10b):  

b. Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle.  

Only they disregard the bold section and consider the drafting zone the full width of the course.  (Yup, I got that from the head man himself.)...

Interesting.  I've never heard that before.  If I understand what you're implying, they said they'll assess a drafting penalty instead of the position penalty that would actually apply in certain situations?

 

2016-04-07 7:24 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by Left Brain

Or just allow drafting and move on.

And get rid of the swim...and the run...

Why would you do that?  I always get a kick out of the folks who have never done a draft legal triathlon (maybe you, maybe not) who think drafting somehow makes the bike leg less competitive. 

However.....allowing drafting on the bike would require  people who want to do well to be good swimmers.....so I get that part from people who do triathlon. 

LOL...perhaps you didn't understand where my sarcasm was coming from.  It's not that I think making the bike draft legal ruins triathlon...it's that I don't like running and swimming...to the point where I don't do it anymore.  Being that I am a bike racer now...I am all for draft legal...as long as there is no swim or run.  

You know.....the first thing I wrote was, "why would you do that, then it would just be a bike race.....oh, wait"........I think my sarcasm meter was not zeroed and I headed off in another direction after editing.

Yet T1 & T2 still seem to be on ...

2016-04-07 7:28 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by marti038 I'd settle for a clear definition from a race official of what is and isn't considered drafting.Seems like they all have their own point of view. I'd also like if people didn't pass me, only to slow down after they've completed the pass. Can't tell you how much that hacks me off.

I actually had some (ahem) conversation a few years ago with BT'ers who officiated as well as the head of USAT officiating.  

The officials policing the course don't follow the rules as written about the drafting zone, which is specified as (section 5.10b):  

b. Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle.  

Only they disregard the bold section and consider the drafting zone the full width of the course.  (Yup, I got that from the head man himself.)...

Interesting.  I've never heard that before.  If I understand what you're implying, they said they'll assess a drafting penalty instead of the position penalty that would actually apply in certain situations?

 

I've had some goofy thing like that too. Talk to was actually indoors and they had a slide presentation of things. The verbiage and even a diagram was the rule book, but the verbal explanation and motions by the presenter (the ref/official) was the width of the course. I went up after for clarification. I think he had the aha moment of realization, but stick with the course width. It's too long ago to remember if it was drafting or position.

2016-04-08 7:16 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by marti038 I'd settle for a clear definition from a race official of what is and isn't considered drafting.Seems like they all have their own point of view. I'd also like if people didn't pass me, only to slow down after they've completed the pass. Can't tell you how much that hacks me off.

I actually had some (ahem) conversation a few years ago with BT'ers who officiated as well as the head of USAT officiating.  

The officials policing the course don't follow the rules as written about the drafting zone, which is specified as (section 5.10b):  

b. Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle.  

Only they disregard the bold section and consider the drafting zone the full width of the course.  (Yup, I got that from the head man himself.)...

Interesting.  I've never heard that before.  If I understand what you're implying, they said they'll assess a drafting penalty instead of the position penalty that would actually apply in certain situations?

 

I've had some goofy thing like that too. Talk to was actually indoors and they had a slide presentation of things. The verbiage and even a diagram was the rule book, but the verbal explanation and motions by the presenter (the ref/official) was the width of the course. I went up after for clarification. I think he had the aha moment of realization, but stick with the course width. It's too long ago to remember if it was drafting or position.

The context of the earlier discussion was over the 15-second allowance to pass someone.  

My interpretation:  If you stay out of the draft zone (i.e. pass with more than 1 meter laterally separating you and the other cyclist), you can take longer than 15 seconds to complete the pass because the 15 seconds applies to violations of the draft zone only.  .  

Trained officials replied "nope, we'll still flag you for drafting."  

Now there is an overall rule that any cooperative behavior that is advantageous is not allowed.  



2016-04-08 7:58 AM
in reply to: McFuzz

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by marti038 I'd settle for a clear definition from a race official of what is and isn't considered drafting.Seems like they all have their own point of view. I'd also like if people didn't pass me, only to slow down after they've completed the pass. Can't tell you how much that hacks me off.

I actually had some (ahem) conversation a few years ago with BT'ers who officiated as well as the head of USAT officiating.  

The officials policing the course don't follow the rules as written about the drafting zone, which is specified as (section 5.10b):  

b. Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle.  

Only they disregard the bold section and consider the drafting zone the full width of the course.  (Yup, I got that from the head man himself.)...

Interesting.  I've never heard that before.  If I understand what you're implying, they said they'll assess a drafting penalty instead of the position penalty that would actually apply in certain situations?

 

I've had some goofy thing like that too. Talk to was actually indoors and they had a slide presentation of things. The verbiage and even a diagram was the rule book, but the verbal explanation and motions by the presenter (the ref/official) was the width of the course. I went up after for clarification. I think he had the aha moment of realization, but stick with the course width. It's too long ago to remember if it was drafting or position.

The context of the earlier discussion was over the 15-second allowance to pass someone.  

My interpretation:  If you stay out of the draft zone (i.e. pass with more than 1 meter laterally separating you and the other cyclist), you can take longer than 15 seconds to complete the pass because the 15 seconds applies to violations of the draft zone only.  .  

Trained officials replied "nope, we'll still flag you for drafting."  

Now there is an overall rule that any cooperative behavior that is advantageous is not allowed.  

 

 

 

Hmmm...My understanding is that the rules intend that 5.10.f would apply, but, the athlete is not riding in accordance with the rules regardless, so the point is moot.  Ride right, pass left.  This also means that when passing, you don't have the option of passing in the middle of the lane.  You need to pass only far enough to the left of the person you're passing to do so safely.  If there's a full lane, you're still obligated to leave room to your left so that other faster riders are able to pass you while you're executing a pass.

 

 

5.10 Position Fouls. In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance. While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct. A variable time penalty shall be imposed for any violation of this section.  This section shall not apply to off-road triathlons and duathlons and shall be excluded from enforcement at those events.

a. Drafting.  Except as otherwise provided in these Rules, while on the cycling course, no participant shall permit his drafting zone to intersect with or remain intersected with the drafting zone of a leading cyclist or that of a motor vehicle. With respect to a motor vehicle (including authorized race vehicles); it is the athlete’s responsibility to move out of the vehicle’s drafting zone or to continually communicate to the vehicle to move away.

b. Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle. The longer sides of the zone begin at the leading edge of the front wheel and run backward parallel to the bicycle; the front wheel divides the short side of the zone into two equal parts. With respect to a moving motor vehicle, the "drafting zone" is a rectangular area extending 15 meters to each side of the vehicle and 30 meters behind the vehicle.

c. Right-of -Way. A participant is generally entitled to assume any otherwise proper location on the cycling course provided that the participant arrives in the position first without contacting another participant. When taking a position near another participant, however, a cyclist shall not crowd the other participant and shall allow reasonable space for the other participant to make normal movement without making contact.

d. Blocking. Cyclists must not block or obstruct the progress of another participant.

e. Passing. A participant who approaches another cyclist from the rear or from another unfavorable position bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul even if the cyclist being approached alters speed. A participant must not attempt to pass another cyclist unless adequate space is available and the athlete is confident of his/her ability to pass the other cyclist. All passing is to be done to the left of the cyclist being overtaken unless otherwise specified.

f. Position. Except for reasons of safety and when no advantage is gained, all cyclists shall keep to the right of the prescribed course unless passing.

g. Being Overtaken. When the leading edge of the front wheel of one cyclist passes beyond the front wheel of another cyclist, the second cyclist has been "overtaken" within the meaning of these Rules. A cyclist who has been overtaken bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul and must immediately move to the rear and out of the drafting zone of the passing cyclist. The overtaken cyclist shall first move completely out of the drafting zone of the other cyclist before attempting to re-pass the other cyclist.

h. Exceptions. A participant may enter the drafting zone without penalty only under the following conditions:

(1) When entering the drafting zone from the rear, closing the gap, and overtaking all within no more than 15 seconds.

(2) When cyclist reduces speed for safety reasons, for course blockage, for an aid station, for an emergency, when entering or exiting a transition area, or when making a turn of 90 degrees or more; or

(3) When USA Triathlon or the Head Referee expressly excludes a section of the bicycle course from the position foul rules because of overly narrow lanes, construction, detours, or a similar reason.

 

This gets into something that a lot of triathletes don't seem to understand when they complain that it's not possible to avoid drafting in larger races...It's possible to have multiple people passing each other at the same time, and all within the rules.  Fast riders passing a series of other riders can be within other's draft zones for several minutes without ever riding outside a draft, so long as they're not in any single rider's draft zone for more than 15 seconds.  Large races with closed roads will frequently have riders passing 4 wide, all legally.

 

 

2016-04-08 8:38 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by TriMyBest

This gets into something that a lot of triathletes don't seem to understand when they complain that it's not possible to avoid drafting in larger races...It's possible to have multiple people passing each other at the same time, and all within the rules.  Fast riders passing a series of other riders can be within other's draft zones for several minutes without ever riding outside a draft, so long as they're not in any single rider's draft zone for more than 15 seconds.  Large races with closed roads will frequently have riders passing 4 wide, all legally. 

That's also why being a slower swimmer is less of a detriment, especially in larger (and longer) races.  There is a lot of time on the bike and a lot of riders on the course that can provide a legal (but still very real) drafting benefit.  Or, in general, crowded races (up to a point, of course) and loop bikes make for faster times because there is more legal drafting benefit.  Especially since larger races also tend to be flatter/faster courses to begin with. 

2016-04-08 8:47 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by TriMyBest

This gets into something that a lot of triathletes don't seem to understand when they complain that it's not possible to avoid drafting in larger races...It's possible to have multiple people passing each other at the same time, and all within the rules.  Fast riders passing a series of other riders can be within other's draft zones for several minutes without ever riding outside a draft, so long as they're not in any single rider's draft zone for more than 15 seconds.  Large races with closed roads will frequently have riders passing 4 wide, all legally. 

That's also why being a slower swimmer is less of a detriment, especially in larger (and longer) races.  There is a lot of time on the bike and a lot of riders on the course that can provide a legal (but still very real) drafting benefit.  Or, in general, crowded races (up to a point, of course) and loop bikes make for faster times because there is more legal drafting benefit.  Especially since larger races also tend to be flatter/faster courses to begin with. 

I bet there are less than 5% of AG triathletes (that's being generous) who know how to, or are able to, get that benefit.

2016-04-08 8:52 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Media, PA
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by TriMyBest

This gets into something that a lot of triathletes don't seem to understand when they complain that it's not possible to avoid drafting in larger races...It's possible to have multiple people passing each other at the same time, and all within the rules.  Fast riders passing a series of other riders can be within other's draft zones for several minutes without ever riding outside a draft, so long as they're not in any single rider's draft zone for more than 15 seconds.  Large races with closed roads will frequently have riders passing 4 wide, all legally. 

That's also why being a slower swimmer is less of a detriment, especially in larger (and longer) races.  There is a lot of time on the bike and a lot of riders on the course that can provide a legal (but still very real) drafting benefit.  Or, in general, crowded races (up to a point, of course) and loop bikes make for faster times because there is more legal drafting benefit.  Especially since larger races also tend to be flatter/faster courses to begin with. 

I bet there are less than 5% of AG triathletes (that's being generous) who know how to, or are able to, get that benefit.

IDK.  It's not that hard to do.  You simply ride behind the rider right until you are coming up on their wheel, slide over and around and then slip back to the right until you come up on the next rider.  Rinse and repeat.

On a crowded, loop course, you don't actually have to do much of anything to get some benefit.  Even just outside the draft zone provides some modest drafting benefits and that assume you never pass or get passed by anyone that gives you a little 'added' benefit.

2016-04-08 9:14 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by TriMyBest

This gets into something that a lot of triathletes don't seem to understand when they complain that it's not possible to avoid drafting in larger races...It's possible to have multiple people passing each other at the same time, and all within the rules.  Fast riders passing a series of other riders can be within other's draft zones for several minutes without ever riding outside a draft, so long as they're not in any single rider's draft zone for more than 15 seconds.  Large races with closed roads will frequently have riders passing 4 wide, all legally. 

That's also why being a slower swimmer is less of a detriment, especially in larger (and longer) races.  There is a lot of time on the bike and a lot of riders on the course that can provide a legal (but still very real) drafting benefit.  Or, in general, crowded races (up to a point, of course) and loop bikes make for faster times because there is more legal drafting benefit.  Especially since larger races also tend to be flatter/faster courses to begin with. 

I bet there are less than 5% of AG triathletes (that's being generous) who know how to, or are able to, get that benefit.

The best draft you can get is off the lead motorbike.



2016-04-08 9:37 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by TriMyBest

This gets into something that a lot of triathletes don't seem to understand when they complain that it's not possible to avoid drafting in larger races...It's possible to have multiple people passing each other at the same time, and all within the rules.  Fast riders passing a series of other riders can be within other's draft zones for several minutes without ever riding outside a draft, so long as they're not in any single rider's draft zone for more than 15 seconds.  Large races with closed roads will frequently have riders passing 4 wide, all legally. 

That's also why being a slower swimmer is less of a detriment, especially in larger (and longer) races.  There is a lot of time on the bike and a lot of riders on the course that can provide a legal (but still very real) drafting benefit.  Or, in general, crowded races (up to a point, of course) and loop bikes make for faster times because there is more legal drafting benefit.  Especially since larger races also tend to be flatter/faster courses to begin with. 

I bet there are less than 5% of AG triathletes (that's being generous) who know how to, or are able to, get that benefit.

The best draft you can get is off the lead motorbike.




I've never been up that far. I figured it was a unicorn or something. Thanks for blowing the surprise.
2016-04-08 10:43 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Undercover Draft Busters

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by trijamie Gets even more complicated with different sections of the course being void of draft rules. Ironman Barcelona for example doesn't apply drafting rules during:
"- Steep uphill sections,
- Tight turns,
- At the aid stations."

So you'd have to have some kind of GPS system knowing which part of the course you're on. Yea, I can't see anything going wrong with that

Just talking tech wise It's not that bad, the recording could be activated we crossing the timing mat at T1 and deactivated at T2. You could have similar points on hills or at rest stops(don't need to be mats just signals). The tech is really close already, it's the return on investment that is not.

I think you'd need a two tag system, one on the stem (sensor, and store a log of the ride) and one on the seatpost (transmitter).  That way it'd be easier for it to know if you're behind someone and for how long.  You wouldn't need a gps or anything, just a short range ping of its own special ID every 5 seconds or so.  Bluetooth, ant+, or something similar.  Tricky part is getting it to be directional and correct range.

The front piece records IDs.  If the same ID shows up in front of you for 20+ seconds, you're drafting.  You'd still need course marshals for other things like blocking though.

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