General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run? Rss Feed  
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2016-04-23 5:18 PM

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Subject: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?

I'm going to be following the Friel power based IM plan this year.  In looking it over, it has the long run of the week on the day preceding the long ride - every week.  In the past, I've always had the bike precede the run because a) the plans called for it, b) it made sense as the run follows the bike in the race and c) that progression puts you on legs that got a good workout within the last 24 hours.  I've never trained the way that Friel's plan calls for, and am wondering what differences to expect in how I feel or approach it.  If I don't like the way it works out, is there any downside to switching days between run/ride?



2016-04-23 5:30 PM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
I don't think it matters. Because of the traffic situation here, I pretty much always do my long ride on Sunday and my long run on Saturday. I don't think it's impacted my training or racing. I think the one case where it would really matter is if you were a weak or very injury-prone runner. Then it might actually be better to do the long run on the first day. I do a brick workout pretty much every week when I'm training for an event, so it's not like I'm not getting any practice in running on legs that are already fatigued from the bike. My experience is that a hard or long run the day before tends to impact biking less than the other way around, but not sure if that's true for others--maybe it's just because that's what I'm used to.
2016-04-23 6:26 PM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
Here is one opinion from a guy who knows a thing or two

http://www.markallencoaching.com/long-bike-and-long-run-workouts/

2016-04-23 6:53 PM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
I put the long ride first. If it rains, I can always switch the run and ride and have a second chance at the ride.
2016-04-23 7:10 PM
in reply to: nickster

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
Originally posted by nickster

I put the long ride first. If it rains, I can always switch the run and ride and have a second chance at the ride.


x2 I let them float and decide based on the weather. I can run in anything, but my bike handling skills are not as great so I will hesitate in high wind or rain.
2016-04-24 10:11 AM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
For a triathlete it makes sense to put the run after the bike. For a duathlete, it truly doesn't matter as you'll have both situations anyways...


2016-04-24 11:03 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?

Originally posted by marcag Here is one opinion from a guy who knows a thing or two http://www.markallencoaching.com/long-bike-and-long-run-workouts/

I'm with Mark Allen on this one: long bike first, long run the next day.  No huge bricks, but bricks with a moderate run (he says up to 50 minutes) are fine.

This is what I generally do, occasionally subject to change due to circumstances.



Edited by brucemorgan 2016-04-24 11:05 AM
2016-04-24 1:42 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?

Thanks for all the feedback.  I'm leaning toward switching and putting the runs following the bike, but may try the first few weeks to see how I like it.  On the other hand, I'm also a creature of habit so just may go with what I've found works for me.

2016-04-24 3:28 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Originally posted by marcag Here is one opinion from a guy who knows a thing or two http://www.markallencoaching.com/long-bike-and-long-run-workouts/

I'm with Mark Allen on this one: long bike first, long run the next day.  No huge bricks, but bricks with a moderate run (he says up to 50 minutes) are fine.

This is what I generally do, occasionally subject to change due to circumstances.

In this, he even extended the thought of not running so far to the long run when it's the day after a long bike. Not just bricks. "It is not important to cover a lot of ground on that long run, but rather to learn how to deal with fatigue and hold your overall form and keep it relaxed, to maintain a good cadence rate and to hold a midfoot strike."

2016-04-24 7:45 PM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
Originally posted by TTom

I'm going to be following the Friel power based IM plan this year.  In looking it over, it has the long run of the week on the day preceding the long ride - every week.  In the past, I've always had the bike precede the run because a) the plans called for it, b) it made sense as the run follows the bike in the race and c) that progression puts you on legs that got a good workout within the last 24 hours.  I've never trained the way that Friel's plan calls for, and am wondering what differences to expect in how I feel or approach it.  If I don't like the way it works out, is there any downside to switching days between run/ride?




It depends where you are in your triathlon career. How many IMs have you done int he past? How many marathons? Which is a relative weakness your run or your bike? Why are you trying Friel's plan now? What do you have to lose by trying his plan as written?

Too many triathletes don't try effective training methods out of fear..ie if I don't do it this way I won't be prepared.

How will you know when it is or isn't working out (last question in your post). Will it just be instinct? Do you have a marker race planned? Will you track overall fatigue, or run improvement or bike improvement or... ???
2016-04-25 7:39 AM
in reply to: nickster

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
Originally posted by nickster

I put the long ride first. If it rains, I can always switch the run and ride and have a second chance at the ride.


Same here. If I am riding and it starts raining, I keep riding, but I hate to start a ride in the rain. I love to run in the rain though. However, I prefer to do the ride on the first day because I am trying to train my legs to run tired.


2016-04-25 8:17 AM
in reply to: #5178555

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
Friel states if I remember right that he wanted your legs fresh so you got a more "quality" run in instead of running on tired legs the next day. I did his plan and not sure how I feel about it. I did a 3:52 marathon split in my IM, but there were other factors that played into that.

I think Mr. Allen has it right though.
2016-04-25 9:30 AM
in reply to: Bevie

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?

Running on tired legs is not a skill.  The only added training benefit of doing consecutive long bike/long run is mental.  Doing a small amount of it can make one more confident come race day.  But, in general, making the workout higher quality should be the primary focus most of the time.  Doing this could make you place the long run before or after the bike, depending which workout you need/want to be of higher quality.  Another option is to separate the long run and bike and not do them back-to-back at all.  My preferred long course training program puts a long run mid-week (earl am for me) and then two bikes on the weekend--with a brick run after at least one of them.  Unless forced, I never do them back-to-back in training.

2016-04-25 10:12 AM
in reply to: #5178686

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
I'm with johnny Kay. I never place my athletes long run and ride back to back. Long ride sat so it can be moved to sun if needed. Long run tu, we'd, thu as their own schedule allows
2016-04-25 10:20 AM
in reply to: #5178720

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
I think a lot of folks do their long runs and rides on Saturday and Sunday (whatever the order) is because they don't have time to do one of them during the work week. I'd love to put some space between my long rides/runs, but work and family make this rough during the week.
2016-04-25 1:10 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Training - long run before long bike, or long bike before long run?
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Originally posted by marcag Here is one opinion from a guy who knows a thing or two http://www.markallencoaching.com/long-bike-and-long-run-workouts/

I'm with Mark Allen on this one: long bike first, long run the next day.  No huge bricks, but bricks with a moderate run (he says up to 50 minutes) are fine.

This is what I generally do, occasionally subject to change due to circumstances.

In this, he even extended the thought of not running so far to the long run when it's the day after a long bike. Not just bricks. "It is not important to cover a lot of ground on that long run, but rather to learn how to deal with fatigue and hold your overall form and keep it relaxed, to maintain a good cadence rate and to hold a midfoot strike."




Lots of variables to who can get the most effective training from a long run the day after a long bike. But if you cannot hold a quality run gait from the start of your long run the day AFTER your long bike, then its best to switch it around, or think if running fatigued will make you a better runner. Will it make you run more effectively then high quality running? Probably not.

I would say that long run after a long bike is more or less earned then just given.


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