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2016-04-24 7:30 AM

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Subject: Karma...
Okay, so maybe it's not the most political of issues, but I am pretty sure it's polarizing nonetheless.
Anybody here see the news story out of Florida that spoke about three teenagers who stole a Honda Accord?
Well, if ya didn't see it, they stole it and proceeded to drive it off the road, into a marsh, and they drowned.
How in the world is this not karma?
The controversy is now, "Why didn't the police officers go into the 15' deep water in the middle of the night and try to save them?"
In my opinion, screw 'em.
Why should police officers risk their lives to save car thieves?
It's outrageous in my opinion.

And, to be consistent with my well-established opinion on parental accountability, I'd have the sperm and egg donors who created these thieves do some jail time and pay partial restitution for their actions. Anybody else?


2016-04-24 7:41 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Karma...
The police officers would have had to a make judgement call and balance the risks to themselves versus the chance of saving the teenagers. Car thieves shouldn't enter into it. I don't envy anyone having to make life and death decisions in a situation like that.
2016-04-24 7:42 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Karma...

That's not karma.  That's sad.  They were juveniles, albeit bad ones, but did they deserve to die?  Really?  Wow.  

 

Now, I will agree that the parents should be held accountable as well, but they did not deserve to die. 

2016-04-25 7:12 AM
in reply to: crowny2

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Subject: RE: Karma...
Agree. They're kids. Kids do stupid, irresponsible and sometimes criminal things, but to suggest they "deserve" to die for stealing a car? It's a sad story on a lot of levels, not the least of which is your response to it. A sixth grader we know got mugged by some high school kids who punched the 11-year old in the face and stole his phone. I hope they catch them and hold them accountable, but I'd never in a million years suggest they deserved to die for it.
2016-04-25 8:59 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Karma...
And I don't think you can hold one person accountable for another's actions, unless they had some direct involvement or negligence. Bill of Rights?
2016-04-25 9:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Karma...

The police probably responded the best they could at the time (as they do in the overwhelming majority of cases).  That they will be second guessed for not doing enough, or doing too much, or doing it wrong, is kind of.....meh, to me.  That just comes with the job.

I agree that it's horrible that these kids died.

Tomorrow, and the next day, and the day after that something else that's horrible will happen, along with all kinds of great and wonderful things.  It's life, not karma.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-04-25 9:36 AM


2016-04-25 9:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Karma...
My initial response was to consider this the feel good story of the week. We've removed three repeat offenders from the face of the earth before they kill someone else. Down side is that we'll probably see rioting, protesting and demands that these officers pay for what they did. But, it isn't that simple is it?

The disturbing trend in this country is to vilify law enforcement and second guess their actions after the fact. The bad guys are no longer accountable for the crime that led to their interaction with law enforcement. It boils down to this, if you don't want get killed by the police, don't fk with them. What we know of the event is that the police were chasing a stolen car, at night and the car was not responding to lights and sirens. For law enforcement, that is the ultimate red flag; meaning they have to believe that the people in the vehicle are willing to kill you, themselves and anyone who might just be walking along minding their own business to avoid arrest. I'm pretty sure they drill that into recruits from day 1 at the academy. "If the bad guys are not willing to obey your request to pull over, you need to be on 100% alert and be prepared to return deadly force," or something along those lines. Now fast forward. The big chase ends in a pond( in gator country! ), at night with the cops having absolutely no clue what is waiting for them inside that car. Do you jump into the water and pop open that door knowing full well that you could get shot in the face for your troubles? I couldn't do it out of respect for my wife, children and family.

Now let's look at the family of the three girls. I'm really sorry that they are going through this. But, I really have to wonder that if maybe they had any respect for their own family and community, that they would have done a better job monitoring their precious children. I'd be willing to wager that this is probably the first interest these kids parents have shown them in years. Sad that it takes them dying and the prospect of a big lawsuit paycheck to get that attention.

No they didn't deserve to die. But I can honestly state that society is better off without them. What if they had run over and killed some innocent person walking on the sidewalk? What if their chase ended with them running the car through your kid's bedroom? Feel sorry for them now? Had they killed an innocent bystander, the family of the bystander would probably get in line to sue the police as well. We, as a society need to get behind law enforcement and stop defending the criminal when they wind up dead because they didn't stop and put their hands up when asked to do so. I fear that if we keep going down the path we're on, law enforcement is eventually going to just punch in and go drive around with their radios turned off.

Edited by mdg2003 2016-04-25 9:40 AM
2016-04-25 11:19 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Karma...

Not sure what else the police officers could have done.  But I really don't know the story.

I do disagree with holding the parents responsible to the point of jail time.   I've been robbed more then once.  Last time was at our current home in a somewhat quiet community.  Everyone is pretty sure it's a kid a few streets over who is a junky.  If it is the kid do I want to kick his , yes.  Do I hold his parents responsible, no.  Here's why, IDK if his parents are like everyone I know in our community.  Hard working people who are trying to raise their kids right.  Or maybe the parents are junkies also.  I couldn't hold someone who is a good person responsible for their kid being a thief so how could I do it for the ones that aren't trying.  It can't be a selective thing so I don't know how you could put parents in jail for the stuff their kids do. 

2016-04-25 11:30 AM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Karma...

Very sad story with no easy answers.
Did the kids deserve to die for the crime they did?  Of course not.  Did they deserve to die because they ran from the police?  Of course not.  Did they die because they committed a crime and then opted to take a high risk approach and run from the police?  Yes, they did.
The responsibility is not on the police, it's on the kids who made the decisions that they did.  You could make the same argument for kids street racing or bungee jumping.  They made a series of decisions that had potential bad consequences and they rolled 7's.

As for the police not helping, I wasn't there so I can't offer a judgement.  I do know that Cops have a LOT of extra weight on their bodies, so I suspect that even a strong swimmer would have a difficult time keeping him or herself above water let alone lugging an unknown risk criminal who just fled from them.
We as triathletes recognize the swim panic challenges and we train for swimming in open water.  Do we even know the cops could swim at all?

As for holding the parents accountable, that's a big giant mess that could and would never fly in America.  If you can arrest the parents for the crime of their child then what else can you do?  Wouldn't it be better if we had the state tell parents how to raise and discipline their children even before they become criminals?  I mean, if it saves one child!!! 
In America there are VERY bad parents and I am of the belief that 95% of the woes of our society is because of poor parenting.  If parents raised loving, respectful, well mannered, polite, and hard working kids then we would have very few societal problems.  Yet, every parent has the constitutional right to be a crappy parent if they want to as long as they don't cross the line into the abuse realm.  I don't like it and I'd LOVE to change it, but it just can't be done at the government level in a free society.

 

2016-04-25 11:58 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Karma...

Let me be clear. 

I do not hold the LEO responsible.  They made a call based on the situation and their own safety.

Secondly, about the parents being held accountable, some great points have been raised.  I withdraw my suggestion for the reasons raised.

 

2016-04-25 9:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Karma...
Originally posted by crowny2

That's not karma.  That's sad.  They were juveniles, albeit bad ones, but did they deserve to die?  Really?  Wow.  

 

Now, I will agree that the parents should be held accountable as well, but they did not deserve to die. 





It's funny how these threads work. Crowny, I think the miscommunication began with this post of yours. Did I say the lil' felons deserved to die? Nope. That said, your post implied I did, and hence the backlash. Did I title the thread Karma? Yes.

Karma (Sanskrit: ????; IPA: ['k?rm?] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).

It sounds like karma to me.
Is it sad they chose to commit a felony? Yes.
Is it unfortunate they died? Yes.
Will I shed tears? Absolutely not. It reminds me of the fool in Georgia who lost his leg shooting at a tannerite-stuffed lawnmower from 30 feet away.

btw, yes, parents (even the ones that aren't there with the kids) should be held responsible for a % of the jail time. The only way we get out of this mess (the breakdown of the family structure) is to make parents accountable. Just my opinion.



Edited by ChineseDemocracy 2016-04-25 9:25 PM


2016-04-26 7:42 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Karma...

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by crowny2

That's not karma.  That's sad.  They were juveniles, albeit bad ones, but did they deserve to die?  Really?  Wow.  

 

Now, I will agree that the parents should be held accountable as well, but they did not deserve to die. 

It's funny how these threads work. Crowny, I think the miscommunication began with this post of yours. Did I say the lil' felons deserved to die? Nope. That said, your post implied I did, and hence the backlash. Did I title the thread Karma? Yes. Karma (Sanskrit: ????; IPA: ['k?rm?] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect). It sounds like karma to me. Is it sad they chose to commit a felony? Yes. Is it unfortunate they died? Yes. Will I shed tears? Absolutely not. It reminds me of the fool in Georgia who lost his leg shooting at a tannerite-stuffed lawnmower from 30 feet away. btw, yes, parents (even the ones that aren't there with the kids) should be held responsible for a % of the jail time. The only way we get out of this mess (the breakdown of the family structure) is to make parents accountable. Just my opinion.

How do you define parent?  What if one parent is raising the child?  What if there's a step parent?  What if there's joint custody?  What if they're adopted at 14?  Do you punish the biological parents 80% and the adoptive parents 20%?
I know what you're saying in spirit, but legally there's absolutely no way on earth you can create legislation to punish a parent for the actions of their child in cases like this.

2016-04-26 9:49 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Karma...
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by crowny2

That's not karma.  That's sad.  They were juveniles, albeit bad ones, but did they deserve to die?  Really?  Wow.  

 

Now, I will agree that the parents should be held accountable as well, but they did not deserve to die. 

It's funny how these threads work. Crowny, I think the miscommunication began with this post of yours. Did I say the lil' felons deserved to die? Nope. That said, your post implied I did, and hence the backlash. Did I title the thread Karma? Yes. Karma (Sanskrit: ????; IPA: ['k?rm?] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect). It sounds like karma to me. Is it sad they chose to commit a felony? Yes. Is it unfortunate they died? Yes. Will I shed tears? Absolutely not. It reminds me of the fool in Georgia who lost his leg shooting at a tannerite-stuffed lawnmower from 30 feet away. btw, yes, parents (even the ones that aren't there with the kids) should be held responsible for a % of the jail time. The only way we get out of this mess (the breakdown of the family structure) is to make parents accountable. Just my opinion.

How do you define parent?  What if one parent is raising the child?  What if there's a step parent?  What if there's joint custody?  What if they're adopted at 14?  Do you punish the biological parents 80% and the adoptive parents 20%?
I know what you're saying in spirit, but legally there's absolutely no way on earth you can create legislation to punish a parent for the actions of their child in cases like this.




I believe that's why they juvenile detention facilities. When parents won't deal with their kids, the state takes them and houses them in a building with like minded little shiiteheads. This way they can hone their skillz and be a better criminal when they get out. Or the state just might actually rehabilitate the kid, despite the parental influence to do otherwise.
2016-04-26 1:07 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Karma...
Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by crowny2

That's not karma.  That's sad.  They were juveniles, albeit bad ones, but did they deserve to die?  Really?  Wow.  

 

Now, I will agree that the parents should be held accountable as well, but they did not deserve to die. 





It's funny how these threads work. Crowny, I think the miscommunication began with this post of yours. Did I say the lil' felons deserved to die? Nope. That said, your post implied I did, and hence the backlash. Did I title the thread Karma? Yes.

Karma (Sanskrit: ????; IPA: ['k?rm?] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).

It sounds like karma to me.
Is it sad they chose to commit a felony? Yes.
Is it unfortunate they died? Yes.
Will I shed tears? Absolutely not. It reminds me of the fool in Georgia who lost his leg shooting at a tannerite-stuffed lawnmower from 30 feet away.

btw, yes, parents (even the ones that aren't there with the kids) should be held responsible for a % of the jail time. The only way we get out of this mess (the breakdown of the family structure) is to make parents accountable. Just my opinion.



I don't think crowny2 was the cause of any miscommunication. In fact it seems to me that this thread has stayed on topic better than 99% of Internet communication.

You didn't say they deserved to die in those exact words but you did say some things that I think are very cold hearted.
"In my opinion, screw 'em.
Why should police officers risk their lives to save car thieves?
It's outrageous in my opinion."


And any implication that Police Officers might choose not to attempt a rescue because those in danger were car thieves does a huge disservice to the officers.
Don
2016-04-26 1:49 PM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: Karma...
This situation reminds me of the Psychology of Evil class I am taking right now (basically, we are trying to define evil from psychology perspective). Unless it was stated somewhere in the article, I would be careful with blaming parents for their kids' action. Yes, parenting is the key, but at the same time, we have great parents with one child graduating Harvard, and the sibling sitting in prison. So there is a combination of things.
Another thing, do we know exactly what happened when they stole the car? Was it a mutual idea of all three? Or only one person, and then two others followed, because they were under peer pressure?
Yea, they could be lil criminals, who were stealing stuff for a while, and this time it was unfortunate, but it's also possible they were teenagers who made a terrible mistake. They wanted to steal the car for "fun" and leave it somewhere, and then share their stupid story on Facebook. 20 years later they are grown ups with decent life feeling ashamed of their actions when they were young. Again, i do not know the details, but in my opinion, every situation has to be looked at from different perspectives.
I do not believe in such thins as Karma. I do no thing there is something or someone who controls our actions and consequences.
Did the police do the right thing? It's hard for me to believe that their initial thought was: oh, they stole the car, let's have them pay for it... with their lives... mwa-ha-ha. I'd rather go with their judgement of risk and chances to save the kids.
2016-04-26 2:30 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Subject: RE: Karma...

If you want to save your kids (or any kids) it is imperative that you know who they are friends with and who they run around with.  It's more important than any lesson you think you can teach them.  Who they run with will begin to define them in the eyes of society.......once they are defined, and know they are, it's a very short bus ride to joining in whatever activity their circle of peers is up to.



2016-04-26 3:40 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Karma...

Originally posted by Left Brain

If you want to save your kids (or any kids) it is imperative that you know who they are friends with and who they run around with.  It's more important than any lesson you think you can teach them.  Who they run with will begin to define them in the eyes of society.......once they are defined, and know they are, it's a very short bus ride to joining in whatever activity their circle of peers is up to.

Not really a religious thing, but our Pastor always says "show me your friends and I'll show you your future".

There's a lot of truth in that because we tend to always gravitate to those around us, good and bad.  If you hang out with successful business owners you tend to work that way.  If you hang out with the barely employed party crowd, then guess what you become.

2016-04-26 4:09 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Karma...

I posted this on my FB feed yesterday not to get a pat on the back but because I think too often we do and say things in the heat of the moment that cannot be reversed.  It feels like this thread is the appropriate area to bring it up because I believe it has relevance.

 

Be Careful!!

Only a few of you know that 2 weeks ago while out on a ride with the South Chicago Wheelmen a car came very close on my left side, a passenger leaned out of the car and lightly touched my shoulder. To say it scared me is an understatement but I was also angry at the time. I have a Garmin VIRB camera and was able to clearly capture the youth's face as well as the license plate.

I called the local police department and initiated an investigation that night. At first I was thinking of pressing charges, throwing the book at them. That is until I heard who did it. They were kids. 16 and 17 year old kids. They are all honor roll students, heavily involved in clubs in and out of school and were just doing it for fun, not meaning to harm anyone.

I am thankful I did not post the photo's on Facebook. I'm also purposefully withholding exactly where this occurred. They had a brain fart, albeit a potentially dangerous one. Nothing more....nothing less. Who among us HAVEN'T done something stupid at that age. I know I can't, right Sam and Chuck?

I am now working through the detective to see if we can get these youths to our race in June in an attempt to humanize us. Show them who we are and why we do what we do. Ideally we can turn what could have been a horrific situation (if I had been 6 inches to my left and they hit me I would have gone down at 20pmh and possibly taken another rider with me) into a positive one and maybe have some good ambassadors on the road in that community.

I also learned a valuable lesson in that I could have potentially ruined these young people's lives by putting a photo on social media where all of their information could have been looked up. It could have been permanent. Maybe it would have crept up in future searches and caused colleges and universities to question whether they should accept this youth. I don't want that.

Remember, we are all in this together.

2016-04-26 4:18 PM
in reply to: crowny2

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Subject: RE: Karma...

Originally posted by crowny2

I posted this on my FB feed yesterday not to get a pat on the back but because I think too often we do and say things in the heat of the moment that cannot be reversed.  It feels like this thread is the appropriate area to bring it up because I believe it has relevance.

 

Be Careful!!

Only a few of you know that 2 weeks ago while out on a ride with the South Chicago Wheelmen a car came very close on my left side, a passenger leaned out of the car and lightly touched my shoulder. To say it scared me is an understatement but I was also angry at the time. I have a Garmin VIRB camera and was able to clearly capture the youth's face as well as the license plate.

I called the local police department and initiated an investigation that night. At first I was thinking of pressing charges, throwing the book at them. That is until I heard who did it. They were kids. 16 and 17 year old kids. They are all honor roll students, heavily involved in clubs in and out of school and were just doing it for fun, not meaning to harm anyone.

I am thankful I did not post the photo's on Facebook. I'm also purposefully withholding exactly where this occurred. They had a brain fart, albeit a potentially dangerous one. Nothing more....nothing less. Who among us HAVEN'T done something stupid at that age. I know I can't, right Sam and Chuck?

I am now working through the detective to see if we can get these youths to our race in June in an attempt to humanize us. Show them who we are and why we do what we do. Ideally we can turn what could have been a horrific situation (if I had been 6 inches to my left and they hit me I would have gone down at 20pmh and possibly taken another rider with me) into a positive one and maybe have some good ambassadors on the road in that community.

I also learned a valuable lesson in that I could have potentially ruined these young people's lives by putting a photo on social media where all of their information could have been looked up. It could have been permanent. Maybe it would have crept up in future searches and caused colleges and universities to question whether they should accept this youth. I don't want that.

Remember, we are all in this together.

Well said and nice job.

I always feel so bad for people that get caught up in heat of the moment crimes (victims and perpetrators).  As an example, road rage crimes that result in death and very long imprisonment are usually done by really good people that have a momentary lapse of judgement in the heat of a high stress situation.

2016-04-26 9:16 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Karma...
Originally posted by Left Brain

If you want to save your kids (or any kids) it is imperative that you know who they are friends with and who they run around with.  It's more important than any lesson you think you can teach them.  Who they run with will begin to define them in the eyes of society.......once they are defined, and know they are, it's a very short bus ride to joining in whatever activity their circle of peers is up to.





I definitely agree with that. To boot, I'd add my favorite excuse out there though when they do end up screwing up..."They were just hanging out with the wrong crowd."

I've got news for most of those parents...your kid likely IS the wrong crowd.
2016-04-26 9:27 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Karma...
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by crowny2

That's not karma.  That's sad.  They were juveniles, albeit bad ones, but did they deserve to die?  Really?  Wow.  

 

Now, I will agree that the parents should be held accountable as well, but they did not deserve to die. 

It's funny how these threads work. Crowny, I think the miscommunication began with this post of yours. Did I say the lil' felons deserved to die? Nope. That said, your post implied I did, and hence the backlash. Did I title the thread Karma? Yes. Karma (Sanskrit: ????; IPA: ['k?rm?] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect). It sounds like karma to me. Is it sad they chose to commit a felony? Yes. Is it unfortunate they died? Yes. Will I shed tears? Absolutely not. It reminds me of the fool in Georgia who lost his leg shooting at a tannerite-stuffed lawnmower from 30 feet away. btw, yes, parents (even the ones that aren't there with the kids) should be held responsible for a % of the jail time. The only way we get out of this mess (the breakdown of the family structure) is to make parents accountable. Just my opinion.

How do you define parent?  What if one parent is raising the child?  What if there's a step parent?  What if there's joint custody?  What if they're adopted at 14?  Do you punish the biological parents 80% and the adoptive parents 20%?
I know what you're saying in spirit, but legally there's absolutely no way on earth you can create legislation to punish a parent for the actions of their child in cases like this.




That would be my campaign slogan, "We're Gonna Make 'em Pay!"
Of course, adopted kids would be treated differently.
Joint custody? Joint responsibility. And listen, I'm not talking about the parents doing equal time. But some % of time, and definite fines would be imposed.
And yes, it would be impossible to implement...but a man can dream, right?
Bottom line, it would only serve to bolster parental responsibility in my opinion.
Hopefully, folks would think twice about who they are procreating with.


2016-04-26 9:33 PM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: Karma...
Originally posted by donw

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by crowny2

That's not karma.  That's sad.  They were juveniles, albeit bad ones, but did they deserve to die?  Really?  Wow.  

 

Now, I will agree that the parents should be held accountable as well, but they did not deserve to die. 





It's funny how these threads work. Crowny, I think the miscommunication began with this post of yours. Did I say the lil' felons deserved to die? Nope. That said, your post implied I did, and hence the backlash. Did I title the thread Karma? Yes.

Karma (Sanskrit: ????; IPA: ['k?rm?] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).

It sounds like karma to me.
Is it sad they chose to commit a felony? Yes.
Is it unfortunate they died? Yes.
Will I shed tears? Absolutely not. It reminds me of the fool in Georgia who lost his leg shooting at a tannerite-stuffed lawnmower from 30 feet away.

btw, yes, parents (even the ones that aren't there with the kids) should be held responsible for a % of the jail time. The only way we get out of this mess (the breakdown of the family structure) is to make parents accountable. Just my opinion.



I don't think crowny2 was the cause of any miscommunication. In fact it seems to me that this thread has stayed on topic better than 99% of Internet communication.

You didn't say they deserved to die in those exact words but you did say some things that I think are very cold hearted.
"In my opinion, screw 'em.
Why should police officers risk their lives to save car thieves?
It's outrageous in my opinion."


And any implication that Police Officers might choose not to attempt a rescue because those in danger were car thieves does a huge disservice to the officers.
Don


I do plead guilty to the "cold-hearted" label.
When I turn on the tv to see a burglar suing a homeowner he was robbing (yes, he got shot in the arm) I want to puke.
These 3 kids are dead.
I believe it's highly likely their parents or guardians are partially responsible and should be punished.
Instead, they may end up with quite a nice sum of cash...only in America.

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