General Discussion Triathlon Talk » When does "fitness" happen? Rss Feed  
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2016-04-26 2:25 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by nc452010 "An easy day or two prior to racing should be enough taper to have a good race." Again...I was just referring to your words (quoted above). If it's not a taper, maybe you shouldn't call it one. Either way, it makes no difference to me. It affects me in no way. Good luck.

Since we're running off the rails anyway...I know JK knows this, so I'm not disagreeing with him, but just trying to help explain... in general, a good taper doesn't consist of easy days.  It's primarily short sessions at about the intensity of the planned race, but at a drastically decreased volume.  So, if you're racing sprints and olys, the meat of taper sessions is going to be at pretty high intensity.  Nothing easy about that at all.

In the case of someone who wants to race a lot, it can help to use an A, B, C race approach.

'A' races are the ones where you really want to knock it out of the park, and be in your best condition for.  For the average AGer, this can only be achieved about twice a year on average.  Genetically gifted professional athletes are more likely to be able to achieve this about 3 times a year.

'B' races are ones that you want to do well, but they're not as important as 'A' races.  For these, you'll do a partial taper, and go into them fairly well rested, but not at peak fitness.

'C' races are the lowest priority.  They are just part of your training, and done with no taper at all.  They're a good opportunity to hone your racing skills for the higher priority races.

IMO, using this approach can be an effective way to develop your annual training plan.

 

The bolded is important.....because there is a VAST misunderstanding among most people who do triathlon of what a taper actually looks like.  My guess is it's because many people who come to triathlon as adults were never actually endurance athletes and don't have a clue.

There is nothing necessarily easy about a taper workout......it's fast and short (compared to the training you have been doing). 

Think of it like sharpening a knife.  You've been working with a rough stone with long, even strokes, then a finer and finer stone as you taper.  You are sharpening with the same frequency, but for shorter duration and increased intensity as the edge on the knife gets sharper.

 



2016-04-26 4:19 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

You need to create a "when does loss of fitness happen" thread because if you "over" taper and recover too long you may come out in the red.

2016-04-26 8:12 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by marcag


You need to create a "when does loss of fitness happen" thread because if you "over" taper and recover too long you may come out in the red.




OK.........so how long would one have to "over-taper" to lose fitness before a race? Same question for recovery.

Discuss it, here.
2016-04-27 5:09 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by nc452010

Originally posted by marcag


You need to create a "when does loss of fitness happen" thread because if you "over" taper and recover too long you may come out in the red.




OK.........so how long would one have to "over-taper" to lose fitness before a race? Same question for recovery.

Discuss it, here.


The problem with over tapering is not as much as you lose the fitness for that specific race but rather with recovery lose fitness for the next race and you do this over and over and you never achieve your full potential for the season.

Theoretically, hold a constant training load for a few months, take 2 days off, do a sprint, take 2 days off, you lost fitness. Theoretically. This is why planning is important and there are things to mitigate this. How much fitness you had going into the race makes a difference.

Tapering is great but many people think they require too much of it based on the load they have coming into the race.

I know pros are different, but they may train hard up until the Thursday of a HIM race and race 2 back to back weekends with little recovery. They only do that because they are worried about the race after, not the one coming up.
2016-04-27 7:32 AM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
How does tapering work for someone 50+ yrs old? How does their fitness level - going in - affect how much they should taper?

I would assume the answer to all of the questions is "it depends", although I'm sure there are some SOP's that typically work for most.

I've got 9 races on my calendar, and I'm likely to add 1 more (maybe 2). I know there's no way I can be at my peak for each race, but there's only two I won't utilize "some" form of a taper for. After this past weekend (I did a sprint and an international back-to-back weekends), I'll typically have 3-4 wks between races (as many as 6). I feel like that's enough time to get in a good block, but I don't know that to be true. My "A" race is my HIM in Sept. I've never raced this much. We'll see what happens. So far, I've been very pleased with my results.

*The above only includes triathlons. I've done a couple open running races this year, and I'll likely do more.

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-27 7:34 AM
2016-04-27 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010 How does tapering work for someone 50+ yrs old? How does their fitness level - going in - affect how much they should taper? I would assume the answer to all of the questions is "it depends", although I'm sure there are some SOP's that typically work for most. I've got 9 races on my calendar, and I'm likely to add 1 more (maybe 2). I know there's no way I can be at my peak for each race, but there's only two I won't utilize "some" form of a taper for. After this past weekend (I did a sprint and an international back-to-back weekends), I'll typically have 3-4 wks between races (as many as 6). I feel like that's enough time to get in a good block, but I don't know that to be true. My "A" race is my HIM in Sept. I've never raced this much. We'll see what happens. So far, I've been very pleased with my results. *The above only includes triathlons. I've done a couple open running races this year, and I'll likely do more.

I don't have time at the moment to give a detailed response, but the biggest misconception about tapering (after the idea of reducing intensity during it) is that the length of the taper is dependent on the length of the race.  One has nothing to do with the other.  Taper length is dependent on the fatigue level prior to beginning it.  Because of this, I agree with Marc that most AGers overestimate the length of taper they need, because they're usually not carrying enough fatigue to warrant a lengthy taper.  I've tapered athletes as little as 4-5 days for a HIM in instances where they had unexpected "forced tapers" (illness, work, family, etc) when we originally planned to be doing their final big build.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2016-04-27 8:32 AM


2016-04-27 8:33 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

If you've got 11 races on your calendar at 50 years old, and just got back to training) then you might as well get used to the idea that some of those races are NOTHING more than hard training days, and some may even be nothing more than practice.  Your first order of business is to prioritize your race schedule.  Which race or two do you want to be your "A" race(s). 

2016-04-27 9:20 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by Left Brain

If you've got 11 races on your calendar at 50 years old, and just got back to training) then you might as well get used to the idea that some of those races are NOTHING more than hard training days, and some may even be nothing more than practice.  Your first order of business is to prioritize your race schedule.  Which race or two do you want to be your "A" race(s). 




I got back into training last August. But, yeah....that's relatively recent. Conceded.

I said, earlier, that some of the races are training days. I won't do anything differently the week of those races.....at all. The only thing I've been doing is cutting back on volume (a lot) the week of my previous 3 races. I've still mixed in (even heightened) intensity into the shortened runs/rides/swims. I have a coach. I'm doing what he tells me to do. It seems to be working. I've been pleased with my results, so far. Everything's relative, though (I'm 51 and never have been at the front end of the spectrum in triathlons). I'm faster than I was 6 yrs ago, though (in every discipline).

I would like to say my "A" race is the HIM in Sept. I have 6 weeks before it with no races scheduled, so that should be a good training block and a proper taper. The alternative to what I'm doing is no taper (for my 'in-between' races)? If increased fitness is realized (as was discussed earlier in this thread) during periods of lowered volume/intensity/(______), wouldn't the short taper every few weeks - prior to the "B,C" races seem to fit into that model?

2016-04-27 10:18 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Maybe, depending on what your training blocks looked like.....but as short as every 2 weeks??  Nah. 

Maybe this has already been covered.....but why so many races?  It's not necessary for good performance and certainly muddies the training water for optimal performance.

2016-04-27 10:29 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Maybe, depending on what your training blocks looked like.....but as short as every 2 weeks??  Nah. 

Maybe this has already been covered.....but why so many races?  It's not necessary for good performance and certainly muddies the training water for optimal performance.




It wouldn't be optimal on the (you cited the shortest time left between races) shortest interval (between races). But, the real intervals are 4wks, 2 wks, 4wks, 4 wks, 7 wks and 3 wks - assuming I stick to the 9 I have paid entries for. If you take out the intervals for the races I have no intention of tapering ANY for, it looks like 5wks, 8 wks, 7 wks between races I'd like to be well-prepared for.

Why so many races? Because I like to race.
2016-04-27 10:43 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010
Originally posted by Left Brain

If you've got 11 races on your calendar at 50 years old, and just got back to training) then you might as well get used to the idea that some of those races are NOTHING more than hard training days, and some may even be nothing more than practice.  Your first order of business is to prioritize your race schedule.  Which race or two do you want to be your "A" race(s). 

I got back into training last August. But, yeah....that's relatively recent. Conceded. I said, earlier, that some of the races are training days. I won't do anything differently the week of those races.....at all. The only thing I've been doing is cutting back on volume (a lot) the week of my previous 3 races. I've still mixed in (even heightened) intensity into the shortened runs/rides/swims. I have a coach. I'm doing what he tells me to do. It seems to be working. I've been pleased with my results, so far. Everything's relative, though (I'm 51 and never have been at the front end of the spectrum in triathlons). I'm faster than I was 6 yrs ago, though (in every discipline). I would like to say my "A" race is the HIM in Sept. I have 6 weeks before it with no races scheduled, so that should be a good training block and a proper taper. The alternative to what I'm doing is no taper (for my 'in-between' races)? If increased fitness is realized (as was discussed earlier in this thread) during periods of lowered volume/intensity/(______), wouldn't the short taper every few weeks - prior to the "B,C" races seem to fit into that model?

If your cut back in volume is done as part of an integrated training plan, then it might be fine.  Some people use such a plan as general practice (and, typically, call it periodization although that is also not generally accurate) and it can work okay.  You say you have a coach and if he/she is on-board and aware of your race plans and your goals, then you should probably trust him/her (if you don't, you should fire him/her). On its face, it does sound to me like you may be giving up some long-term fitness potential in order to feel a little 'fresher' for your races.  But I have no idea what the rest of your training looks like (or even what you race week training looks like), so that may be a bad read.  Also, there is at least some merit to having you fresh for all those races so that you have a good experience in them and get to your A-race with lots of confidence.  Even if that means you arrive with less fitness than you might have otherwise had, a lot can be made up for with a good mental attitude.  And for many athletes, seeing some progress and having good race experiences can be just as/more satisfying than thinking you did everything possible to milk your absolute best performance on a specific day.  It's not how I would choose to approach it, but I can understand how it might benefit some people (and, again, not saying this is what you and your coach are doing now--no way for me to know--just throwing it out there as an example).  So, yes, it all depends.



2016-04-27 10:46 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
I'd say you're spot-on, Johnny Kay. And yes, my coach and I are on great terms.
2016-04-27 2:21 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Maybe, depending on what your training blocks looked like.....but as short as every 2 weeks??  Nah. 

Maybe this has already been covered.....but why so many races?  It's not necessary for good performance and certainly muddies the training water for optimal performance.

You're the guy who usually reminds us that we're age groupers and we mostly do this for fun

2016-04-27 2:23 PM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Left Brain

Maybe, depending on what your training blocks looked like.....but as short as every 2 weeks??  Nah. 

Maybe this has already been covered.....but why so many races?  It's not necessary for good performance and certainly muddies the training water for optimal performance.

You're the guy who usually reminds us that we're age groupers and we mostly do this for fun

You gotta define fun.....because the end game for all us beer league types is.................injury. 



Edited by Left Brain 2016-04-27 2:25 PM
2016-04-27 2:54 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?




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2016-04-27 2:55 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Left Brain

Maybe, depending on what your training blocks looked like.....but as short as every 2 weeks??  Nah. 

Maybe this has already been covered.....but why so many races?  It's not necessary for good performance and certainly muddies the training water for optimal performance.

You're the guy who usually reminds us that we're age groupers and we mostly do this for fun

You gotta define fun.....because the end game for all us beer league types is.................injury. 

...but, injury can involve our significant others bringing us beer while we're laid up in front of the TV.  :-D

 



2016-04-28 4:25 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay
It's not how I would choose to approach it, but I can understand how it might benefit some people (and, again, not saying this is what you and your coach are doing now--no way for me to know--just throwing it out there as an example).


I agree with you. This is something best figured out by his coach who has all the details.
2016-04-28 7:37 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by JohnnyKay
It's not how I would choose to approach it, but I can understand how it might benefit some people (and, again, not saying this is what you and your coach are doing now--no way for me to know--just throwing it out there as an example).


I agree with you. This is something best figured out by his coach who has all the details.



How would you choose to approach a 9 race season in which you have 3-4 "A" races?
2016-04-28 8:37 AM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by nc452010

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by JohnnyKay
It's not how I would choose to approach it, but I can understand how it might benefit some people (and, again, not saying this is what you and your coach are doing now--no way for me to know--just throwing it out there as an example).


I agree with you. This is something best figured out by his coach who has all the details.



How would you choose to approach a 9 race season in which you have 3-4 "A" races?


there are way too many variables to that question for your specific case

But if my A race was a HIM in Sept, I would be peeking fitness and fatigue probably 10days out. A bunch of tapers before that will definitely impact how how I could get that fitness level

Also depends on what the goals of the race are. If it's to qualify for worlds that's one thing. If it's to complete and have fun, that's another


Edited by marcag 2016-04-28 8:37 AM
2016-04-28 8:43 AM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
What if these small tapers fall in line (at the end of a training block) with where a 51 yr old with a year's training under his belt should probably be taking some rest, anyway?

You're right. There are a lot of variables. I'm also dealing with the remnants of runner's knee.

I only replied, because you said it's not how you would choose to approach it. Hence my question. I'm interested in how you would do it. Not saying I could do it that way (or, that I'd want to). Just curious.

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-28 8:52 AM
2016-04-28 12:16 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Ignoring everything that's been posted already, your question is pretty basic exercise physiology

Stress-Adaptatoin response

Apply Training Stress-> Recovery -> Supercompensation.

This super compensation occurs after tissue repair, enzyme production, neo-genesis of cellular 'stuff' that helps carry oxygen, etc.

If another training stress is applied in this supercompensation phase, the addititive effects create better fitness. Endurance, speed, power, strength, etc. Whatever you're targeting.

If you don't stress during the super compensation, detraining effect will occur and you'll maintain rather than improve. Leave a bigger gap and you'll detrain. Apply too much stress and the recovery process takes longer, necessitating longer intervals of applying new training stress. The size of hte supercompensation will change depending on the load of the training applied. tiny loads, tiny super-compensation. Big loads potentially bigger compensation.

More isn't better. The right load at the right time leads to continued progress. Scheduled rest (ie 3 wk on, 1 week recovery) builds an insurance policy against overtraining...but can also be a recipe for under training.

In general you'll respond to a training load in 4-6 weeks before the super compensation starts to plateau.

Recovery is letting fatigue shed from your body, "uncovering" the fitness, like the way the continental plates are still rebounding from the ice age...the stress is reduced and fatigue sheds faster tan detraining occurs and you're performance imrpoves overall.

Basic stuff, good stuff to learn.

all the argument / discussion above is more than just semantics, it's the "art" of training


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