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2016-05-23 10:42 AM


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Subject: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
So I've been an endurance athlete for a long time, but just sort of got back into the game and have been dipping my toe into the water for about 9 months. Consistency has been a real problem for me but over the last few months I've been able to average probably 8hrs/week but I can't seem to pull a full half distance race together and struggle ALOT on the half distance run.

So right now I'm pretty stuck at the ~4:30 mark. I'm a pretty average swimmer (just started 9months ago), but capable of certainly riding 2:15 or under and my standalone half time is in the ~1:16ish range but can't seem to bust 1:30 after the ride.

What really makes me think this is a volume issue is that in shorter races - sprint/olympic I am handily beating guys that in turn handily beat me at the half distance.

So... thoughts? And just for anecdotal evidence, for those of you who are/have broken the 4:20 range, any feedback on the type of volume you put in to do so?

Muchas gracias!


2016-05-23 11:05 AM
in reply to: infmjstrimonkey

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Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?

Is this a joke???

I'll assume it's not...

If you've really gone in the 4:20 range on 8 hours of training, you should find a coach, adjust priorities to permit more training, and set the goal of getting your elite card.

If the conditions between the open HM and your HIM run were the same, and you went from a 1:16 to a 1:30, you're over-biking your fitness level.  That's an 18% difference, and you want to shoot for more like 5%-7%.  That's a 1:20-1:22.  Weekly volume will be a contributing factor, but race execution is likely the bigger culprit.

I'd try to build up to weekly volume in the mid-teens, and see how your body responds to that.

Make those changes, and you'll be in contention for the overall at most HIM's.

BTW, which races have you done?

 

2016-05-23 11:09 AM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey

So I've been an endurance athlete for a long time, but just sort of got back into the game and have been dipping my toe into the water for about 9 months. Consistency has been a real problem for me but over the last few months I've been able to average probably 8hrs/week but I can't seem to pull a full half distance race together and struggle ALOT on the half distance run.

So right now I'm pretty stuck at the ~4:30 mark. I'm a pretty average swimmer (just started 9months ago), but capable of certainly riding 2:15 or under and my standalone half time is in the ~1:16ish range but can't seem to bust 1:30 after the ride.

What really makes me think this is a volume issue is that in shorter races - sprint/olympic I am handily beating guys that in turn handily beat me at the half distance.

So... thoughts? And just for anecdotal evidence, for those of you who are/have broken the 4:20 range, any feedback on the type of volume you put in to do so?

Muchas gracias!



What is your swim time, roughly? Transitions? Assuming 1:30 for the run, 2:15 for the bike, that leaves you 35 minutes to crack that 4:20.

Your transitions should be 1 min to 1:30 tops, so that still leaves you 32 minutes (assuming 2 x 1:30)....

To me, it sounds like you need a swim coach. A 32 min swim is quite attainable for an adult inset swimmer with a high fitness background, and that would put you right there.

Just be thankful your weak leg is the shortest leg. I wish I had a 115-130 half after 56 miles. Righ now I swim 24-25 ish, bike 215ish, and am struggling to run a 150 half, and my running isn't going to get much faster (old injuries).

Edit: and before anyone tells me I'm overbiking: i'm not.... my HM is the same open. I crushed my foot a little less than 2 years ago and was told I wouldn't be able to run again period, so it's foot pain/being very, very careful not to reinjure my foot that's slowing me down.

Edited by davejustdave 2016-05-23 11:13 AM
2016-05-23 11:33 AM
in reply to: davejustdave


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Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Oh, and volume wise: my next 70.3 is in july... right now I put in about 10-12 hrs on the bike over 4 rides of varying length, about 12k yards in the pool (3 1 hr sessions at a 1:20/100 scy base pace), and only about 2.5-3 hrs total running split between 3 short and 1 longer run (gotta protect the foot).

So about 18 hrs: I think this is my 2nd highest volume week in the plan, but the highest volume week will only be an hr more.
2016-05-23 1:12 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest


8

Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Is this a joke???

I'll assume it's not...

If you've really gone in the 4:20 range on 8 hours of training, you should find a coach, adjust priorities to permit more training, and set the goal of getting your elite card.

If the conditions between the open HM and your HIM run were the same, and you went from a 1:16 to a 1:30, you're over-biking your fitness level.  That's an 18% difference, and you want to shoot for more like 5%-7%.  That's a 1:20-1:22.  Weekly volume will be a contributing factor, but race execution is likely the bigger culprit.

I'd try to build up to weekly volume in the mid-teens, and see how your body responds to that.

Make those changes, and you'll be in contention for the overall at most HIM's.

BTW, which races have you done?

 




Not a joke - but to be clear - I have not gone in the 4:20 range - 4:30 is kind of the range I have settled in so far- have done 4:37, 4:31, 4:27 - in the past 8 mos. I am doing my damndest to add some time to training but well, same old sob story, family priorities, work priorities etc. so doing what I can.

I've based my ride pacing off of my current FTP level at 315w and I've read to go 80-90%, indeed too hard? I feel like a total beginner when it comes to tris even though I've been endurance racing for quite some time - I feel like I'm doing a tundran death march at 7+min/mi when I should be low 6's.

Thank you for your help!
2016-05-23 1:18 PM
in reply to: davejustdave


8

Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by davejustdave

Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey

So I've been an endurance athlete for a long time, but just sort of got back into the game and have been dipping my toe into the water for about 9 months. Consistency has been a real problem for me but over the last few months I've been able to average probably 8hrs/week but I can't seem to pull a full half distance race together and struggle ALOT on the half distance run.

So right now I'm pretty stuck at the ~4:30 mark. I'm a pretty average swimmer (just started 9months ago), but capable of certainly riding 2:15 or under and my standalone half time is in the ~1:16ish range but can't seem to bust 1:30 after the ride.

What really makes me think this is a volume issue is that in shorter races - sprint/olympic I am handily beating guys that in turn handily beat me at the half distance.

So... thoughts? And just for anecdotal evidence, for those of you who are/have broken the 4:20 range, any feedback on the type of volume you put in to do so?

Muchas gracias!



What is your swim time, roughly? Transitions? Assuming 1:30 for the run, 2:15 for the bike, that leaves you 35 minutes to crack that 4:20.

Your transitions should be 1 min to 1:30 tops, so that still leaves you 32 minutes (assuming 2 x 1:30)....

To me, it sounds like you need a swim coach. A 32 min swim is quite attainable for an adult inset swimmer with a high fitness background, and that would put you right there.

Just be thankful your weak leg is the shortest leg. I wish I had a 115-130 half after 56 miles. Righ now I swim 24-25 ish, bike 215ish, and am struggling to run a 150 half, and my running isn't going to get much faster (old injuries).

Edit: and before anyone tells me I'm overbiking: i'm not.... my HM is the same open. I crushed my foot a little less than 2 years ago and was told I wouldn't be able to run again period, so it's foot pain/being very, very careful not to reinjure my foot that's slowing me down.


Thanks, Dave! I am dutifully improving on my swim but due to schedule... go figure - masters/swim coaching has been a bear - so have been rolling solo trying to improve off of videos online (not joking - but it has helped) and did an underwater swim clinic. Started at 36min, 33min, and latest at 28min (downriver so that's a throwaway but it was a good swim and kind of in the thick of things - I would say it was probably 32min effort all else being equal) - for context my long distance pool intervals are right about 1:30-1:33/100yds average.

The transitions are improving - oh man you should have seen the first - but now I'm solid in the top 1/3 to top 15% of transition times in age group so could be better, but not terrible either.

You've got some really impressive results, good work - and I have some volume goals to shoot for! Thank you for your input, Dave!


2016-05-23 1:21 PM
in reply to: davejustdave


8

Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by davejustdave

Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey

So I've been an endurance athlete for a long time, but just sort of got back into the game and have been dipping my toe into the water for about 9 months. Consistency has been a real problem for me but over the last few months I've been able to average probably 8hrs/week but I can't seem to pull a full half distance race together and struggle ALOT on the half distance run.

So right now I'm pretty stuck at the ~4:30 mark. I'm a pretty average swimmer (just started 9months ago), but capable of certainly riding 2:15 or under and my standalone half time is in the ~1:16ish range but can't seem to bust 1:30 after the ride.

What really makes me think this is a volume issue is that in shorter races - sprint/olympic I am handily beating guys that in turn handily beat me at the half distance.

So... thoughts? And just for anecdotal evidence, for those of you who are/have broken the 4:20 range, any feedback on the type of volume you put in to do so?

Muchas gracias!



What is your swim time, roughly? Transitions? Assuming 1:30 for the run, 2:15 for the bike, that leaves you 35 minutes to crack that 4:20.

Your transitions should be 1 min to 1:30 tops, so that still leaves you 32 minutes (assuming 2 x 1:30)....

To me, it sounds like you need a swim coach. A 32 min swim is quite attainable for an adult inset swimmer with a high fitness background, and that would put you right there.

Just be thankful your weak leg is the shortest leg. I wish I had a 115-130 half after 56 miles. Righ now I swim 24-25 ish, bike 215ish, and am struggling to run a 150 half, and my running isn't going to get much faster (old injuries).

Edit: and before anyone tells me I'm overbiking: i'm not.... my HM is the same open. I crushed my foot a little less than 2 years ago and was told I wouldn't be able to run again period, so it's foot pain/being very, very careful not to reinjure my foot that's slowing me down.


Another question for another post but do you ride with power and if so, do you mind me asking your FTP and what % of FTP you shoot for in a half? Just rode at 270w for a 2:22 and based on some others I know are going significantly faster on same/lower power numbers - I know a lot of this is personal body geometry etc. but I may need to spend some time focusing on aero positioning - or maybe I'm just crazy and i'm right about where I should be.
2016-05-23 2:37 PM
in reply to: infmjstrimonkey


89
252525
Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Just got back into the sport in november after 15 years off, so invested my dough in a P2, Wheels (cheapie chinese carbons) and a helmet.

I plan on gettina a power meter next year, but right now I just work on cadence 100-110 and percieved effort.
2016-05-23 2:58 PM
in reply to: davejustdave


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Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by davejustdave

Oh, and volume wise: my next 70.3 is in july... right now I put in about 10-12 hrs on the bike over 4 rides of varying length, about 12k yards in the pool (3 1 hr sessions at a 1:20/100 scy base pace), and only about 2.5-3 hrs total running split between 3 short and 1 longer run (gotta protect the foot).

So about 18 hrs: I think this is my 2nd highest volume week in the plan, but the highest volume week will only be an hr more.


I'm curious about your swim volume and swim workouts. What sort of swim workouts do you do? I'm a slow swimming and always looking for ideas. Right now, I really need to work on my technique which I know is bad.
2016-05-23 2:59 PM
in reply to: infmjstrimonkey

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Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey

Originally posted by davejustdave

Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey

So I've been an endurance athlete for a long time, but just sort of got back into the game and have been dipping my toe into the water for about 9 months. Consistency has been a real problem for me but over the last few months I've been able to average probably 8hrs/week but I can't seem to pull a full half distance race together and struggle ALOT on the half distance run.

So right now I'm pretty stuck at the ~4:30 mark. I'm a pretty average swimmer (just started 9months ago), but capable of certainly riding 2:15 or under and my standalone half time is in the ~1:16ish range but can't seem to bust 1:30 after the ride.

What really makes me think this is a volume issue is that in shorter races - sprint/olympic I am handily beating guys that in turn handily beat me at the half distance.

So... thoughts? And just for anecdotal evidence, for those of you who are/have broken the 4:20 range, any feedback on the type of volume you put in to do so?

Muchas gracias!



What is your swim time, roughly? Transitions? Assuming 1:30 for the run, 2:15 for the bike, that leaves you 35 minutes to crack that 4:20.

Your transitions should be 1 min to 1:30 tops, so that still leaves you 32 minutes (assuming 2 x 1:30)....

To me, it sounds like you need a swim coach. A 32 min swim is quite attainable for an adult inset swimmer with a high fitness background, and that would put you right there.

Just be thankful your weak leg is the shortest leg. I wish I had a 115-130 half after 56 miles. Righ now I swim 24-25 ish, bike 215ish, and am struggling to run a 150 half, and my running isn't going to get much faster (old injuries).

Edit: and before anyone tells me I'm overbiking: i'm not.... my HM is the same open. I crushed my foot a little less than 2 years ago and was told I wouldn't be able to run again period, so it's foot pain/being very, very careful not to reinjure my foot that's slowing me down.


Another question for another post but do you ride with power and if so, do you mind me asking your FTP and what % of FTP you shoot for in a half? Just rode at 270w for a 2:22 and based on some others I know are going significantly faster on same/lower power numbers - I know a lot of this is personal body geometry etc. but I may need to spend some time focusing on aero positioning - or maybe I'm just crazy and i'm right about where I should be.


So lets start out with I am not as fast as you, and never will be. But my bike time is close to yours and my swim time is faster, so I'll chime in with some thoughts.

If you just rode with an average of 270W and did a 2:22, I think you are leaving free speed on the table in way of aerodynamics. I do not ride with power but I ride about a 2:30 HIM and don't think I'm averaging that much power.

As for swimming- volume is key to getting faster once your technique is good. You don't always need to keep that volume going, you can maintain with less. If your times start to slip through a heavy week in to keep them up.
2016-05-23 4:05 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey

Originally posted by davejustdave

Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey

So I've been an endurance athlete for a long time, but just sort of got back into the game and have been dipping my toe into the water for about 9 months. Consistency has been a real problem for me but over the last few months I've been able to average probably 8hrs/week but I can't seem to pull a full half distance race together and struggle ALOT on the half distance run.

So right now I'm pretty stuck at the ~4:30 mark. I'm a pretty average swimmer (just started 9months ago), but capable of certainly riding 2:15 or under and my standalone half time is in the ~1:16ish range but can't seem to bust 1:30 after the ride.

What really makes me think this is a volume issue is that in shorter races - sprint/olympic I am handily beating guys that in turn handily beat me at the half distance.

So... thoughts? And just for anecdotal evidence, for those of you who are/have broken the 4:20 range, any feedback on the type of volume you put in to do so?

Muchas gracias!



What is your swim time, roughly? Transitions? Assuming 1:30 for the run, 2:15 for the bike, that leaves you 35 minutes to crack that 4:20.

Your transitions should be 1 min to 1:30 tops, so that still leaves you 32 minutes (assuming 2 x 1:30)....

To me, it sounds like you need a swim coach. A 32 min swim is quite attainable for an adult inset swimmer with a high fitness background, and that would put you right there.

Just be thankful your weak leg is the shortest leg. I wish I had a 115-130 half after 56 miles. Righ now I swim 24-25 ish, bike 215ish, and am struggling to run a 150 half, and my running isn't going to get much faster (old injuries).

Edit: and before anyone tells me I'm overbiking: i'm not.... my HM is the same open. I crushed my foot a little less than 2 years ago and was told I wouldn't be able to run again period, so it's foot pain/being very, very careful not to reinjure my foot that's slowing me down.


Another question for another post but do you ride with power and if so, do you mind me asking your FTP and what % of FTP you shoot for in a half? Just rode at 270w for a 2:22 and based on some others I know are going significantly faster on same/lower power numbers - I know a lot of this is personal body geometry etc. but I may need to spend some time focusing on aero positioning - or maybe I'm just crazy and i'm right about where I should be.


So lets start out with I am not as fast as you, and never will be. But my bike time is close to yours and my swim time is faster, so I'll chime in with some thoughts.

If you just rode with an average of 270W and did a 2:22, I think you are leaving free speed on the table in way of aerodynamics. I do not ride with power but I ride about a 2:30 HIM and don't think I'm averaging that much power.

As for swimming- volume is key to getting faster once your technique is good. You don't always need to keep that volume going, you can maintain with less. If your times start to slip through a heavy week in to keep them up.


^^This. Going to Marc's thread on "How Aero are You". 270 watts for 24 mph puts you at the absolute bottom of the chart in the "poor" catagory. The good news is, there is a lot of "free" speed right there for the taking. Note that "free" means no work, but it will likely cost you $$. See link:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...


2016-05-23 4:29 PM
in reply to: mike761


8

Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Yes, I do think I'm leaving free speed on the table too - I kind of have so much stuff going on right now that it's hard to focus on the most important stuff.

And I'm glad you mentioned about the swim volume - I was honestly about to drown after 200yd intervals 6months ago so swim volume has really not been a thing for me - have eased up to 2500-3000yd workouts but they leave me pretty beat by the end - it's taking time but I'm finally getting to the point where I can put some significant time in the pool - good to know I can continue to see positive gains if I approach it right!

Thanks for your input, Mike!
2016-05-23 4:30 PM
in reply to: davejustdave


8

Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
You are a beast, Dave. Good to remember the fundamentals - riding your bike and PE
2016-05-23 4:30 PM
in reply to: 3mar


8

Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Thanks, 3mar!
2016-05-23 4:36 PM
in reply to: infmjstrimonkey

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Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?

Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Is this a joke???

I'll assume it's not...

If you've really gone in the 4:20 range on 8 hours of training, you should find a coach, adjust priorities to permit more training, and set the goal of getting your elite card.

If the conditions between the open HM and your HIM run were the same, and you went from a 1:16 to a 1:30, you're over-biking your fitness level.  That's an 18% difference, and you want to shoot for more like 5%-7%.  That's a 1:20-1:22.  Weekly volume will be a contributing factor, but race execution is likely the bigger culprit.

I'd try to build up to weekly volume in the mid-teens, and see how your body responds to that.

Make those changes, and you'll be in contention for the overall at most HIM's.

BTW, which races have you done?

 

Not a joke - but to be clear - I have not gone in the 4:20 range - 4:30 is kind of the range I have settled in so far- have done 4:37, 4:31, 4:27 - in the past 8 mos. I am doing my damndest to add some time to training but well, same old sob story, family priorities, work priorities etc. so doing what I can. I've based my ride pacing off of my current FTP level at 315w and I've read to go 80-90%, indeed too hard? I feel like a total beginner when it comes to tris even though I've been endurance racing for quite some time - I feel like I'm doing a tundran death march at 7+min/mi when I should be low 6's. Thank you for your help!

For a HIM, you should generally be in the 75%-85% range.  Even as fast as you are, only training 8 hours per week, and focusing on tri's only the last 9 months, you need to ride lower in that range right now than you could with more training for a longer time.  This also all assumes that your FTP is accurate.

Also, what Mike & 3Mar said about reading Marc's thread is good.  It does really sound like your CdA isn't optimized, so there's likely some low hanging fruit there.   Maybe Marc will weigh in with some additional thoughts.

 

2016-05-23 5:36 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest


8

Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by infmjstrimonkey
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Is this a joke???

I'll assume it's not...

If you've really gone in the 4:20 range on 8 hours of training, you should find a coach, adjust priorities to permit more training, and set the goal of getting your elite card.

If the conditions between the open HM and your HIM run were the same, and you went from a 1:16 to a 1:30, you're over-biking your fitness level.  That's an 18% difference, and you want to shoot for more like 5%-7%.  That's a 1:20-1:22.  Weekly volume will be a contributing factor, but race execution is likely the bigger culprit.

I'd try to build up to weekly volume in the mid-teens, and see how your body responds to that.

Make those changes, and you'll be in contention for the overall at most HIM's.

BTW, which races have you done?

 

Not a joke - but to be clear - I have not gone in the 4:20 range - 4:30 is kind of the range I have settled in so far- have done 4:37, 4:31, 4:27 - in the past 8 mos. I am doing my damndest to add some time to training but well, same old sob story, family priorities, work priorities etc. so doing what I can. I've based my ride pacing off of my current FTP level at 315w and I've read to go 80-90%, indeed too hard? I feel like a total beginner when it comes to tris even though I've been endurance racing for quite some time - I feel like I'm doing a tundran death march at 7+min/mi when I should be low 6's. Thank you for your help!

For a HIM, you should generally be in the 75%-85% range.  Even as fast as you are, only training 8 hours per week, and focusing on tri's only the last 9 months, you need to ride lower in that range right now than you could with more training for a longer time.  This also all assumes that your FTP is accurate.

Also, what Mike & 3Mar said about reading Marc's thread is good.  It does really sound like your CdA isn't optimized, so there's likely some low hanging fruit there.   Maybe Marc will weigh in with some additional thoughts.

 




Thanks guys, I read that whole thread, that's some great stuff - to be fair.. it does assume flat course so "poor" may not be accurate - but certainly not "good" - looks like I have some work to do. More training and less drag... genius.


2016-05-23 5:57 PM
in reply to: TriTampa2


89
252525
Subject: RE: Training Volume for sub 4:20 70.3?
Originally posted by TriTampa2

Originally posted by davejustdave

Oh, and volume wise: my next 70.3 is in july... right now I put in about 10-12 hrs on the bike over 4 rides of varying length, about 12k yards in the pool (3 1 hr sessions at a 1:20/100 scy base pace), and only about 2.5-3 hrs total running split between 3 short and 1 longer run (gotta protect the foot).

So about 18 hrs: I think this is my 2nd highest volume week in the plan, but the highest volume week will only be an hr more.


I'm curious about your swim volume and swim workouts. What sort of swim workouts do you do? I'm a slow swimming and always looking for ideas. Right now, I really need to work on my technique which I know is bad.


I just get in and swim 4-5 k 3x a week.

Usually warm up with 500 to a thousand, then a descending set or 2 .. say 5 x 100 on 130, 4 on 125, 3 on 120, 2 on 115, 1x 110, then 105 repeats until I can't make the interval anymore. Will do tge same thing with 200s to mix it up. I also like doing 500s where I sprint the first 50-100 to the point I am in serious O2 debt and then back off to a 110-115 pace for the remainder to simulate race starts. Very rarely mix in a few drills. I don't do kick sets or pull.

I swam on teams from 6 until 20, then worked summers as an ocean LG which meant about an hour of swim workout/day plus whatever swimming I did dragging knuckleheads out of rip currents so it's more about maintaining fitness than technique or getting comfy in OW.

Typical workout is about an hour once I factor in chatting w the superwife between sets. Usually do 3 a week, 4 rides and 4 runs, plus yoga and weights once or twice a week. Will probably bump the yards up to 6500-8000 yds on a couple of the workouts in the fall to as superwife and I prep for the 140.6 we have in april.

Hope that helps.

There is no magic to swimming, it's all about time in the water. I put that time in when I was in my teens so don't need to as much now, so I try to spend my time on the bike and to a lesser extent running.

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author : spetremears
comments : 0
9 weeks after my first bike ride, 5 months after my first swim and 13 months after my surgery I entered the Nelson week Tri a Tri !