Long swim frequency (Page 2)

OK, I totally get that form is a huge - even totally hugest - part of how you swim fast for as long as you can HOLD that good form (once learned).  The part I don't get, though, is how one learns to hold that form 2000m into a swim - so that you swim fast at the end of a long, continuous swim (which is what you do in a tri race) and not look like the end of the video...

Just by doing enough short work in a given session to get the total yardage, and keeping rest just short enough to keep your form together but not so much that you recover cardiovascularly?

Oh, and to my post above, the dang thing was so long, there were a couple good posts from when I opened it to when I finished (and I stepped away for a while).  Apologies to the reader. 

Guess I'm just slow on the uptake with this swimming stuff.  Not trying to troll at all - really just curious.

Thanks

Matt

Just my .02.   In season I do Masters 2X a week, sometimes a third day solo, and do one longer ocean swim 1-2 miles.  Getting out with a *fast* group (i.e., faster than you). and hanging with the group for the duration can be a great workout and a very important part of training.  IMO  But assumes you have the techniques and skill to do that properly 

In short, yes.  It's been the way to swimming faster/better for a very long time.  Think of a long swim like you think of a FTP cycling test....and when you do it, pick a time, say 30 minutes, and count the laps.  Do that once per month and watch the laps go up.......you're getting faster.

You're right, it was a bit unrealistic.  When I was posting it I considered using different times but in the end I used it for the simplicity of the math.

The difference is that your run form breaking down won't ingrain bad technique habits like your swim stroke breaking down will....and for swimming that's a big problem.

The truth is most people who do triathlon don't do good swim intervals because they are hard....done properly they are REALLY hard.  It's much easier to "see how far I can go".

I don't think everyone is negative on a long swim set everyone once in a while.  It just depends on how often you are doing it.  Once a week is too often with limited time to get in the water.  Once a month is a different thing if you are testing your fitness. 

Yeah....the main difference being 90% of people who do triathlon can't hold their form for 1500 all out so they don't learn to swim.

And all anyone here is saying is that if your goal is to be a better swimmer/triathlete, then you are doing far too much long-distance in your mix to be optimal.  If you just want to 'survive' the swim and enjoy yourself, then whatever 'works' for you is fine.  

Training for an oly, you should try to do some main sets that are at least 1500m.  But that 1500m does not have to be a straight swim (e.g., could be 15x100, 30x50, 5x50/10x100/5x50, or countless other combos).  And, as people have been pointing out in this thread, it should probably not be a straight swim most of the time.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing long swims - if done correctly. 

In fact, the newer a swimmer you are, the more important it is for you to gain the confidence to do the race distance swim at effort by practicing similar or overlength long continuous swims without rests. 

There reasons the broken sets like 20 x 100 is recommended as a workout staple instead for the 1 x 2000 is that:

1. Most AG triathletes/swimmers will slack off a lot more during the 1 x 2000 and not even know it, as they'll just hit their watch at the end. You're much more accountable to holding a strong pace on the 20 x 100 where you check the clock on each sendoff and return. And because of the more steady pacing on the 10 x 200 due to the clocked intervals, you'll learn to swim at correct steady pacing rather than the typical start-fast->end-slow that you'll incorrectly practice if doing only long steady swims with one or two timed checkpoints.

2. An understated reason for why team and club competitive swimmers train with these intervals all the time, as opposed to pretty much any other endurance sport, is the logistics of sharing lanes. With 3 swimmers in a lane, even small pace differences mean the fast guy will probably lap the slowest guy at some point in a long 2000+ swim. Whereas the fast swimmer can still hammer it and not overlap the slow guy on a 10 x 200 with the same sendoff (fast guy gets more rest time, but is offset by the faster swim pace.) It's also more motivating and competitive to have people near each other as is the case on the start of each interval sendoff.

3. The logistics of tracking laps and pace times for 2000+ swims is a lot more annoying than the simplicity of a 20 x 100 on a fixed sendoff, even if nobody is sharing lanes. Especially in a group setting where there might be 20+ swimmers to monitor. 

4. Some argument to be made for better neuromuscular technique training due to the slightly faster pace on the 20 x 100 vs 2000, but I think this is overstated for most AG triathletes. If you can actually pace the 2000 straight correctly (for example, I'll do the 2000 straight but I hit the lap button on every 100 to make sure I'm pacing it dead-on through), it's a pretty much identical workout to the 20 x  100 with small stops given fair pacing for each.   It's just that the 2000 is easier to misexecute (esp for self-training AGers), so it's prob better to do more of the intervals as your regular pool workout.

I actually believe that for most newer or slower AG triathlete swimmers, the long swim can be particularly important in that it really forces you to NOT hang onto that wall too long during the rest breaks. It's far more common for these AG swimmers to start slacking off by hanging onto the wall for extra rest at the tail end of a tough 10 x 200 set, thus short-circuiting their workout juts as it's giving them the most benefit.  For sure, I've seen quite a few aspiring AG triathlete-swimmers from whom I'd say that doing mostly long 2000+ sets for awhile would help them more than a 10 x 200, as they seem to never be able to finish a 10 x 200 at the correct pace - they give up way too easily and sit out too many of the crucial final intervals when they're well within their ability to suffer. 

yes

At least 2:00/100.  Probably a bit faster.

Don't do this!  Start out at on 2:05 or 2:10 (or 2:15 if that is really the right interval for you).  Ideally, you want to swim at nearly the same pace (and have the same amount of rest) on each rep.  Of course, the last rep will feel harder because you are more tired.

You don't suck.  You just haven't trained sufficiently to be fast.  Welcome to the club.  Now get in the pool and swim hard!  :-)

Drop your rest first, the time to the wall (your speed) will follow.  It's a process and it takes quite a bit of time, so don't drop big junks as you find your sweet spot.  5 seconds MAX.  But if you are holding 1:50 for each then you likely have way too much rest because your time is not falling off.  Done properly, you should have less rest as the workout goes on, not built in, but because you're struggling a bit more as the effort gets longer. 

I used to watch my kid as he learned to swim do 100 X 20 on 1:05...SCY.  The first 5 or so he'd hit the wall at :51-:53.  By 15 - 20 he was hitting the wall in a minute and only getting 5 seconds rest.  The intensity needs to stay up......even as the rest falls off.