General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Run cadence and heart rate question Rss Feed  
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2006-09-06 7:37 PM

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Ottawa
Subject: Run cadence and heart rate question
I am new to training for tris and only recently started running again after many years away from the sport. Despite doing some walk/run intervals I have had a cramping sensation in the front of my shins. I did some research and this is not shin splints. So, I have been taking it slow and waiting for my legs to get used to the pounding and adapt before pushing much harder.

Over the past week I have been reading other forum posts about the benefits of proper cadence and so today I did a run maintaining a 90+ cadence throughout. I still had to do some run/walk intervals, but my legs didn't hurt. It was great. The quicker, shorter strides definitely made a difference.

BUT, my heartrate soared at the quicker cadence. I still haven't been tested to discover my max HR while running, but it was up around 180 which I am sure will be way too high.

Will my heart rate start to drop if I continue training at this cadence?

Thanks for your input.



2006-09-06 11:11 PM
in reply to: #532802

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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question
Make sure that you are also taking shorter steps with that higher cadence.  Increasing the cadence and maintaining your stride length just means you are running faster.  The purpose behind a higher turn-over is because you want to avoid over-striding and reduce heel striking.  That requires a shorter stride to allow your foot to land under your center of gravity rather than out in front of your body.  Generally though, it isn't unusual for your HR to respond to any change in your "normal" techniques.  When I focus on a higher run cadence it tends to feel a bit more intense but I'm able to maintain it much longer than I would predict based on how it feels.  There is a certain amunt of neuromuscular conditioning that is necessary before your body adapts to a faster turn-over.
2006-09-07 1:10 AM
in reply to: #532802

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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question
Also, there is no "too high" for your Max HR while running...it is what it is. I think what you are getting at, however, is what is an appropriate HR for you to train in order to improve. That's a long discussion, sort of.

Joel is absolutely right, it will take some time for your body to simply figure out what you are doing because you are using a slightly different muscle set to increase your cadence. Once your body sorts it out, your HR shoudl come down some.

However, I was recently told by Bobby McGee (no, not the song, the running coach) while learning a new for me running form and having very high HR and being out of breath (this is turning into a longish run-on sentance...)...that if your HR was consistently above 75% of max while trying to run at your aerobic level that you should be walking instead. So i've been alternating "intervals". EVen though I'm not trying to do speed work, my HR goes so high that I have to do short 1-2 minutes at a time, then walk. when I do these intervals, I concetrate only on form. I am now stringing together 10 minutes at a time with a higher running cadence and my HR is back where it was before.

You will probably need to still integrate walking with the higher cadence running for awhile, but stick with it and let us know how it goes.
2006-09-07 12:23 PM
in reply to: #532802

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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question

Ok, so i don't want to hijack JJ's thread, but i've a quick one about this run cadence malarkey. I took a run the other night and measured my cadence at about 80, which i take to be bad. However, by trying to up it to 90 it feels really weird, as if i'm putting in more effort to go the same distance (even allowing for using different muscles, as above). Surely more steps = more work?

I don't want to draw comparisons between my miserable efforts and a cheetah, but our friend from the jungle takes whacking great strides and goes really fast. It seems counter-intuitive to me that short steps are quicker.



Edited by Gordon Gekko 2006-09-07 12:24 PM
2006-09-07 12:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question
Gordon Gekko - 2006-09-07 11:23 AM

Ok, so i don't want to hijack JJ's thread, but i've a quick one about this run cadence malarkey. I took a run the other night and measured my cadence at about 80, which i take to be bad. However, by trying to up it to 90 it feels really weird, as if i'm putting in more effort to go the same distance (even allowing for using different muscles, as above). Surely more steps = more work?

I don't want to draw comparisons between my miserable efforts and a cheetah, but our friend from the jungle takes whacking great strides and goes really fast. It seems counter-intuitive to me that short steps are quicker.



Look at it this way - there are only two ways you can get faster: either you can take a longer stride or you can fit more strides into the same amount of time. Initially you will have to have a shorter stride if you increase your cadence to maintain the same speed, but as your body adjusts you will be able to lenthen your stride again. If you only try to get faster by increasing the length of your stride you will end up not only heel-striking and wasting energy, but also courting injury.
2006-09-07 1:10 PM
in reply to: #533474

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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question
Ahh, thanks.  Will have to work on it.


2006-09-07 1:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question

I may be getting in over my head here and there are certainly more qualified people to answer this, but isn't it also a lot like cycling theory with regards to cadence?  In general spinning at a higher cadence in a lower gear is more efficient and ultimately faster than mashing low cadences in higher gears? 

2006-09-07 1:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question

also, when you take shorter/quicker strides, you are more likely to be moving horizontally, forward, rather than the more agressive up and down that bigger (slower) strides cause. so less braking, less jamming on your joints. unscientific, but true. for me anyway. and as my logs will demonstrate, I am a fabulous runner.

 

that was a joke, obviously, but once upon a time, a long time ago, i could run a 5k in under 20 minutes with the above observations...

2006-09-07 2:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question

My normal cadence is around 83.  I recently bought a temp trainer metronome and am working on getting used to 90cadence.  It's going pretty well.  My HR is somewhat higher for the same speed at 90 than it was at 83, but more than that I find that my RPE is higher at lower HR's.  I know this will get better, and it slowly is.  I just thought I would share.

I will say that I do find my legs feel better after a run than they used to at the slower cadence.  That's a very nice thing. 

2006-09-07 3:01 PM
in reply to: #532802

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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question
Thanks for all of the replies everyone. I'll be sure to post again with an update on how I'm progressing. It seems that this cadence thing is new to a lot of us newbies.

FYI, I was having trouble finding an online metronome file to put on my ipod so I simply took an electronic metronome that I use for music out with me on a run. I got some strange looks from neighbours as I beeped past them on the run, but it worked like a charm.

2006-09-07 9:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Run cadence and heart rate question

It will feel that way at first.  I have developed a higher run cadence naturally over the past year or so althugh I do focus on my form and technique from time to time.  I wouldn't say that running at 80 is necessarily "bad" but research shows that a higher turn-over is more efficient...regardless of how long your legs are.  Watch elite runners and you'll see that they aren't taking super long strides...they are turning over their feet very fast and have proper foot placement.  Think of spinning on your bike as an similar situation.  By increasing your cadence you decrease the amount of force required for each pedal revolution which reduces the stress on your fast twitch fibers.  You can maintain a fast light stride longer than a powerful long stride, not to mention the shorter stride is mechanically more efficient.  I'd suggest picking up Ken Mierke's book "The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training".  Lots of good information on proper mechanics and the specifics of efficient running.

Gordon Gekko - 2006-09-07 1:23 PM

Ok, so i don't want to hijack JJ's thread, but i've a quick one about this run cadence malarkey. I took a run the other night and measured my cadence at about 80, which i take to be bad. However, by trying to up it to 90 it feels really weird, as if i'm putting in more effort to go the same distance (even allowing for using different muscles, as above). Surely more steps = more work?

I don't want to draw comparisons between my miserable efforts and a cheetah, but our friend from the jungle takes whacking great strides and goes really fast. It seems counter-intuitive to me that short steps are quicker.



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