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2016-07-20 9:31 AM


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Subject: Total Immersion swimming
Does anyone have an opinion or review of Total Immersion? Is it a set of videos or books, or both? I have been following Swim Smooth for awhile, and studying their stuff. Just wondering how TI compares. Would love to hear from people who have used it.
Thanks!


2016-07-20 11:34 AM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming

Many people have had good experiences with TI swimming. I used it myself back in 2006 for my first Ironman and credit it with swimming success.

It is a set of videos plus workshops that cost a few hundred dollars.  There is a certified TI instructor that frequents this board and she can explain more (AdventureBear, real name Suzanne Atkinson).  I notice the links to other posts below are really ancient.  Here's a much better one with comments from Suzanne.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=538951

Swimming cannot be book learned and videos only go so far.  Personal direct instruction is necessary. I compare swimming to playing the piano. It's not "training" it's "practicing" and if all you do is play the wrong notes over and over (akin to having a poor swim technique) then there is no way you will get better.  Worse, you will have to unlearn bad habits you didn't even know you had.

2016-07-20 12:24 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Many people have had good experiences with TI swimming. I used it myself back in 2006 for my first Ironman and credit it with swimming success.

It is a set of videos plus workshops that cost a few hundred dollars.  There is a certified TI instructor that frequents this board and she can explain more (AdventureBear, real name Suzanne Atkinson).  I notice the links to other posts below are really ancient.  Here's a much better one with comments from Suzanne.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=538951

Swimming cannot be book learned and videos only go so far.  Personal direct instruction is necessary. I compare swimming to playing the piano. It's not "training" it's "practicing" and if all you do is play the wrong notes over and over (akin to having a poor swim technique) then there is no way you will get better.  Worse, you will have to unlearn bad habits you didn't even know you had.

if you want to learn how to be a mediocre swimmer, its the program for you.

2016-07-20 12:32 PM
in reply to: Burchib


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming

It's very good for new swimmers. The drills are excellent for new swimmers.

 

It oversells itself however on the 'swim easy and go FAST' claims it repeatedly makes in the book. The books makes you think that by decreasing your drag in the water, you'll become a FOP swimmer, which is patently false - you need both drag reduction AND propulsion to go fast.

 

And the only way to improve propulsion is to swim hard, and a lot. No shortcut.

2016-07-20 1:02 PM
in reply to: yazmaster


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by yazmaster

It's very good for new swimmers. p>



I agree with this. It all depends on where you are with your swimming though. If you're the type that can barely swim 25 yards then it is a good path to travel until you get comfortable doing some decent distances. Eventually though you'll level off and you'll need something better. I actually think Swim Smooth has more to offer in terms of getting you faster.

Gerry Rodrigues is an open water swim coach out in CA and he does a swim podcast called Tower 26. I find his lectures to be very beneficial. My two cents. FWIW with respect to the "define FOP/MOP/BOP" thread I'm a beer leaguer.
2016-07-20 2:19 PM
in reply to: Gatornate


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Thanks for all the input everyone. Much appreciated!


2016-07-20 3:00 PM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
I feel like some of the other reviews are too harsh. I guess it depends on your definition of being a "good swimmer." I used TI and a TI coach personally. If you put me in a race with a high school/college former swimmer they would blow me away, but I'm typically front of the pack when you remove the outliers(sp?). The DVD's were a huge help at first and got me to MOP quality. When I finally got a coach I made a quick jump in speed and drastically reduced my effort at the same time.
2016-07-20 3:23 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Many people have had good experiences with TI swimming. I used it myself back in 2006 for my first Ironman and credit it with swimming success.

It is a set of videos plus workshops that cost a few hundred dollars.  There is a certified TI instructor that frequents this board and she can explain more (AdventureBear, real name Suzanne Atkinson).  I notice the links to other posts below are really ancient.  Here's a much better one with comments from Suzanne.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=538951

Swimming cannot be book learned and videos only go so far.  Personal direct instruction is necessary. I compare swimming to playing the piano. It's not "training" it's "practicing" and if all you do is play the wrong notes over and over (akin to having a poor swim technique) then there is no way you will get better.  Worse, you will have to unlearn bad habits you didn't even know you had.

if you want to learn how to be a mediocre swimmer, its the program for you.




Well you have to get to mediocre before you get to good. I'll admit I did a bit of eye-rolling when I first saw the videos (ok...a lot of eye rolling). But now watching my wife learn to swim, I can see the need for something to get people comfortable in the water before moving on to what it takes to swim fast.
2016-07-24 10:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by Burchib

Does anyone have an opinion or review of Total Immersion? Is it a set of videos or books, or both? I have been following Swim Smooth for awhile, and studying their stuff. Just wondering how TI compares. Would love to hear from people who have used it.
Thanks!


TI is not a way to swim but a methodology to teaching swimming skills. Like any methodology, no system is complete, however that doesn't mean it's lacking or is limited to a specific demographic of swimmers. Prior to "discovering" Total Immersion swimming, Terry coached 24 national champions from youth to collegiate swimmers.

It happens to be an excellent methodology for beginners, but the same skills apply to advanced swimmers.

A few pro triathlete case studies...
Pro triathlete Kim Schwabenbauer took up tri 7-10 years ago...finished last in the swim of her first tri...won the race. Studied TI to get her swim on track, eventually turned pro...never the fastest pro swimmer and not as fast as top AGers but TI was part of her path to imrpovement.
Listen to more about Kim & TI (and lots of other stories) here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdqlSFD9zk


On the other end of the spectrum...
Pro Triathlete Darbi Roberts...grew up a competitive swimmer and was always FOP. Became a pro traithlete...wanted ot improve swim further, took TI instruction & became a TI coach...finished 5th overall at IM AZ with a swim time of 51:09, a minute faster than her previous best IM swim time...due to the improvements she gained through studying TI. How many 52:xx IM swimmers think about studying TI to swim faster...easier...? Not many..but more probably should.
Read more about Darbi & TI here:
http://www.totalimmersion.net/blog/video-ti-coach-darbi-roberts-roc...

I've coached frank fearful beginners as well as professional triathletes.

You can certainly evaluate TI source materials and make your own decision...a new product was jsut released in the last 2 weeks on advanced skills...catch, 2 BK, breathing, etc.





Edited by AdventureBear 2016-07-24 10:32 PM
2016-07-25 2:26 AM
in reply to: 3mar


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming


Well you have to get to mediocre before you get to good. I'll admit I did a bit of eye-rolling when I first saw the videos (ok...a lot of eye rolling). But now watching my wife learn to swim, I can see the need for something to get people comfortable in the water before moving on to what it takes to swim fast.


There are some fundamental flaws with TI, mainly they encourage or don't discourage an exaggerated glide, which is bad, bad, bad. Well bad if you want to go fast.

Look at the pause at the front of his stroke, especially at 1.00. Absolutely terrible. He doesn't look too bad because he has great body position, 90% of people, trying to swim like this this would just sink. There are some good aspects to TI, but trying to encourage stuff like this just discredits them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

2016-07-25 7:54 AM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Total Immersion (tried it on my own with the book and video) did something that I would have thought was impossible. It made me slower. I had much better luck with the Swim Smooth method as well as the Marc Evans Endurance videos on Youtube.

(Tonight I have a session with a coach, and I have my fingers crossed that it will go well. I live in a small town, so decent swim coaches are hard to find.)


2016-07-25 8:40 AM
in reply to: Burchib


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by Burchib

Does anyone have an opinion or review of Total Immersion? Is it a set of videos or books, or both? I have been following Swim Smooth for awhile, and studying their stuff. Just wondering how TI compares. Would love to hear from people who have used it.
Thanks!


I can't really comment on TI but I recently took a Swim Smooth clinic and was impressed. I'm an adult onset swimmer so no speed demon but I thought the clinic was informative and a lot of what they said made sense to me. I
2016-07-25 11:48 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by zedzded



Well you have to get to mediocre before you get to good. I'll admit I did a bit of eye-rolling when I first saw the videos (ok...a lot of eye rolling). But now watching my wife learn to swim, I can see the need for something to get people comfortable in the water before moving on to what it takes to swim fast.


There are some fundamental flaws with TI, mainly they encourage or don't discourage an exaggerated glide, which is bad, bad, bad. Well bad if you want to go fast.

Look at the pause at the front of his stroke, especially at 1.00. Absolutely terrible. He doesn't look too bad because he has great body position, 90% of people, trying to swim like this this would just sink. There are some good aspects to TI, but trying to encourage stuff like this just discredits them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4



Results: Terry, who is in the video you linked above, just broke an Adirondack masters record in his age group (60-65): 1650 with a time of 23:10.

The actual implementation of the principals look very different in a person like Terry who is 6'0" and 65 years old, versus someone like me who is 5"3", 47 years old.

Here is my swim from 4 months ago. The swimming looks a little different in my body than it does in Terrys. Just 2 days after this video which was taken at a TI coaching camp, I also attended a Slowtwitch coaching camp at the same location Coach & retired pro triathlete Sara McClarty had NO feedback on my stroke aside from "Looks great, just swim more".

1:29/100yd plus more pratcice 50s spliced together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtSZi9lHHc

A few other TI coaches at camp swimming 100yd repeats. (they are not breathing hard between repeats)

https://vimeo.com/175983681 1:20/100yd

https://vimeo.com/175983681 1:29/100yd




2016-07-25 8:01 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming



Results: Terry, who is in the video you linked above, just broke an Adirondack masters record in his age group (60-65): 1650 with a time of 23:10.

The actual implementation of the principals look very different in a person like Terry who is 6'0" and 65 years old, versus someone like me who is 5"3", 47 years old.

Here is my swim from 4 months ago. The swimming looks a little different in my body than it does in Terrys. Just 2 days after this video which was taken at a TI coaching camp, I also attended a Slowtwitch coaching camp at the same location Coach & retired pro triathlete Sara McClarty had NO feedback on my stroke aside from "Looks great, just swim more".

1:29/100yd plus more pratcice 50s spliced together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtSZi9lHHc



I'd be interested in seeing underwater footage, but from looking at that video it doesn't look like you have great body position. Your feet aren't anywhere near the surface which means you're kicking deep = drag. Other than that it just looks like stock standard freestyle.
2016-07-25 10:59 PM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by zedzded




Results: Terry, who is in the video you linked above, just broke an Adirondack masters record in his age group (60-65): 1650 with a time of 23:10.

The actual implementation of the principals look very different in a person like Terry who is 6'0" and 65 years old, versus someone like me who is 5"3", 47 years old.

Here is my swim from 4 months ago. The swimming looks a little different in my body than it does in Terrys. Just 2 days after this video which was taken at a TI coaching camp, I also attended a Slowtwitch coaching camp at the same location Coach & retired pro triathlete Sara McClarty had NO feedback on my stroke aside from "Looks great, just swim more".

1:29/100yd plus more pratcice 50s spliced together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtSZi9lHHc



I'd be interested in seeing underwater footage, but from looking at that video it doesn't look like you have great body position. Your feet aren't anywhere near the surface which means you're kicking deep = drag. Other than that it just looks like stock standard freestyle.



[pink font]
I didn't know there was stock standard freestyle? I was under the impression from the critical comments on this thread re TI that it was something different and bad... [pink font]
2016-07-26 12:38 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by zedzded




Results: Terry, who is in the video you linked above, just broke an Adirondack masters record in his age group (60-65): 1650 with a time of 23:10.

The actual implementation of the principals look very different in a person like Terry who is 6'0" and 65 years old, versus someone like me who is 5"3", 47 years old.

Here is my swim from 4 months ago. The swimming looks a little different in my body than it does in Terrys. Just 2 days after this video which was taken at a TI coaching camp, I also attended a Slowtwitch coaching camp at the same location Coach & retired pro triathlete Sara McClarty had NO feedback on my stroke aside from "Looks great, just swim more".

1:29/100yd plus more pratcice 50s spliced together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtSZi9lHHc



I'd be interested in seeing underwater footage, but from looking at that video it doesn't look like you have great body position. Your feet aren't anywhere near the surface which means you're kicking deep = drag. Other than that it just looks like stock standard freestyle.



[pink font]
I didn't know there was stock standard freestyle? I was under the impression from the critical comments on this thread re TI that it was something different and bad... [pink font]


I'm not sure if you meant to suggest you swim with a TI style (whatever that is), but you swim nothing like the people do in the numerous TI videos I've watched.


2016-07-26 6:07 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by zedzded
Results: Terry, who is in the video you linked above, just broke an Adirondack masters record in his age group (60-65): 1650 with a time of 23:10. The actual implementation of the principals look very different in a person like Terry who is 6'0" and 65 years old, versus someone like me who is 5"3", 47 years old. Here is my swim from 4 months ago. The swimming looks a little different in my body than it does in Terrys. Just 2 days after this video which was taken at a TI coaching camp, I also attended a Slowtwitch coaching camp at the same location Coach & retired pro triathlete Sara McClarty had NO feedback on my stroke aside from "Looks great, just swim more". 1:29/100yd plus more pratcice 50s spliced together https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtSZi9lHHc
I'd be interested in seeing underwater footage, but from looking at that video it doesn't look like you have great body position. Your feet aren't anywhere near the surface which means you're kicking deep = drag. Other than that it just looks like stock standard freestyle.
[pink font] I didn't know there was stock standard freestyle? I was under the impression from the critical comments on this thread re TI that it was something different and bad... [pink font]
I'm not sure if you meant to suggest you swim with a TI style (whatever that is), but you swim nothing like the people do in the numerous TI videos I've watched.

 

LMAO!  That's some funny stuff!  You realize that you're telling one of the top coaches in the TI teaching methodology that she doesn't look like a TI swimmer.  Maybe that should make you step back and reconsider what you think you know about TI.

There's no such thing as TI swimming.  There's a lot of bad advice that pops up every time a TI thread is started. The most common ones are predicated on the misconception that TI is a way of swimming. So, comments like "it'll make you slower" or "it's a good way to become a mediocre swimmer" are made by people who don't understand it.  It's an excellent methodology for swimmers of every ability level. Don't be dissuaded by people who don't actually know anything about it,  nor clips from learning videos intended for beginners. What is shown in those types of videos has very little resemblance to what a coach like Suzanne does with a more advanced swimmer. 

2016-07-26 9:39 AM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
I'm actually surprised at the hatred over TI...

I bought the TI book when I couldn't breath correctly and didn't understand a thing about swimming. And from what I've read and understand (I've only read the book never gone to a clinic) but it's about fundamentals. The only real difference is stressing the teaching of form before you teach distance or endurance - which is the foundation of every sport (it's actually ignored in many endurance sports) you played growing up.

If someone is doing TI to enjoy a swim workout a few times a month or be competitive in triathlons the concept is the same, formulate the fundamentals and build on them. Tiger Woods has (had) a fundamentally perfect swing and it was the fastest as well, giving him the advantage over everyone; If you want to go fast, go fast with TI or not.
2016-07-26 4:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
I'm not a great swimmer, but I'm pretty good for closing in on 50 years old. I'm a versatile freestyler, pretty equally capable in sprints (28.49 50 M Long Course), middle distance (5:09 400 M Long Course), distance ( 21:17 1650 yard free), and even open water (HIM-distance in 31:18, without wetsuit). I still find worthwhile ideas, tips, and reminders in TI swimming videos; stuff that's applicable to sprints as well as long distance.

Edited by gary p 2016-07-26 4:42 PM
2016-07-26 10:45 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by TriMyBest

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by zedzded
Results: Terry, who is in the video you linked above, just broke an Adirondack masters record in his age group (60-65): 1650 with a time of 23:10. The actual implementation of the principals look very different in a person like Terry who is 6'0" and 65 years old, versus someone like me who is 5"3", 47 years old. Here is my swim from 4 months ago. The swimming looks a little different in my body than it does in Terrys. Just 2 days after this video which was taken at a TI coaching camp, I also attended a Slowtwitch coaching camp at the same location Coach & retired pro triathlete Sara McClarty had NO feedback on my stroke aside from "Looks great, just swim more". 1:29/100yd plus more pratcice 50s spliced together https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtSZi9lHHc
I'd be interested in seeing underwater footage, but from looking at that video it doesn't look like you have great body position. Your feet aren't anywhere near the surface which means you're kicking deep = drag. Other than that it just looks like stock standard freestyle.
[pink font] I didn't know there was stock standard freestyle? I was under the impression from the critical comments on this thread re TI that it was something different and bad... [pink font]
I'm not sure if you meant to suggest you swim with a TI style (whatever that is), but you swim nothing like the people do in the numerous TI videos I've watched.

 

LMAO!  That's some funny stuff!  You realize that you're telling one of the top coaches in the TI teaching methodology that she doesn't look like a TI swimmer.  Maybe that should make you step back and reconsider what you think you know about TI.

There's no such thing as TI swimming.  There's a lot of bad advice that pops up every time a TI thread is started. The most common ones are predicated on the misconception that TI is a way of swimming. So, comments like "it'll make you slower" or "it's a good way to become a mediocre swimmer" are made by people who don't understand it.  It's an excellent methodology for swimmers of every ability level. Don't be dissuaded by people who don't actually know anything about it,  nor clips from learning videos intended for beginners. What is shown in those types of videos has very little resemblance to what a coach like Suzanne does with a more advanced swimmer. 




I don't care who she is. She has poor body position and has a poor kick. This is a triathlon forum, people want to know how to swim fast, they don't give a crap about swimming gracefully or ensuring they don't splash when they kick and if they do, they're on the wrong forum. I can't say I've ever seen one competitive swimmer that swims with a kick like Suzanne's, perhaps you might be able to find one though?
2016-07-26 11:34 PM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by zedzded

I don't care who she is. She has poor body position and has a poor kick. This is a triathlon forum, people want to know how to swim fast, they don't give a crap about swimming gracefully or ensuring they don't splash when they kick and if they do, they're on the wrong forum. I can't say I've ever seen one competitive swimmer that swims with a kick like Suzanne's, perhaps you might be able to find one though?


Sure...Shelley Taylor Smith. a successful competitive open water swimmer is a great example of a world class swimmer with a body type like mine. sometimes her kick cavitates bubbles, but for the most part they don't splash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaf0-8Olhk8

Janet Evan's kick is barely visible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw

Keri-Anne Payne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuC8OXQE9nc

If you watch this race from above, Laure Manaudou has the smallest kick of any of these swimmers and wins the race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llRUNnQVJqg

Here is Darbi Roberts, the pro triathlete I mentioned earlier in the thread...she swam a 51 minute IM last year at Arizona...I see no splashes here either.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zif5fs7dbswwcob/P2290014.MOV?dl=0


There are lots of examples, you're just not looking for them. You don't see what you don't know to look for. If you spend time looking for these athletes swimming at less than race pace like Darbi is you'll see even less, and without underwater footage you'd never know that the legs were a delibarate part of the stroke and think the legs were just dragging behind.

You must not have noticed that my hips are at the surface with every rotation...its excellent body position. (I have great distribution of body fat to guarantee that.) The legs should draft the torso not splash. My legs are generally straight and the feet are just under the surface, unless I bend my knees in which case I can certainly make them appear at the surface. S

My point in showing several case studies of TI swimmers in this thread was to give the OP several examples of fast, successful, results oriented athletes who use TI principals and teaching methods. Your comment that TI teaches major flaws is not an accurate reflection of real world results.





2016-07-27 12:49 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by zedzded

I don't care who she is. She has poor body position and has a poor kick. This is a triathlon forum, people want to know how to swim fast, they don't give a crap about swimming gracefully or ensuring they don't splash when they kick and if they do, they're on the wrong forum. I can't say I've ever seen one competitive swimmer that swims with a kick like Suzanne's, perhaps you might be able to find one though?


Sure...Shelley Taylor Smith. a successful competitive open water swimmer is a great example of a world class swimmer with a body type like mine. sometimes her kick cavitates bubbles, but for the most part they don't splash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaf0-8Olhk8

Janet Evan's kick is barely visible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw

Keri-Anne Payne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuC8OXQE9nc

If you watch this race from above, Laure Manaudou has the smallest kick of any of these swimmers and wins the race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llRUNnQVJqg

Here is Darbi Roberts, the pro triathlete I mentioned earlier in the thread...she swam a 51 minute IM last year at Arizona...I see no splashes here either.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zif5fs7dbswwcob/P2290014.MOV?dl=0


There are lots of examples, you're just not looking for them. You don't see what you don't know to look for. If you spend time looking for these athletes swimming at less than race pace like Darbi is you'll see even less, and without underwater footage you'd never know that the legs were a delibarate part of the stroke and think the legs were just dragging behind.

You must not have noticed that my hips are at the surface with every rotation...its excellent body position. (I have great distribution of body fat to guarantee that.) The legs should draft the torso not splash. My legs are generally straight and the feet are just under the surface, unless I bend my knees in which case I can certainly make them appear at the surface. S

My point in showing several case studies of TI swimmers in this thread was to give the OP several examples of fast, successful, results oriented athletes who use TI principals and teaching methods. Your comment that TI teaches major flaws is not an accurate reflection of real world results.






I like these examples.
2016-07-27 1:12 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear


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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by zedzded

I don't care who she is. She has poor body position and has a poor kick. This is a triathlon forum, people want to know how to swim fast, they don't give a crap about swimming gracefully or ensuring they don't splash when they kick and if they do, they're on the wrong forum. I can't say I've ever seen one competitive swimmer that swims with a kick like Suzanne's, perhaps you might be able to find one though?


Sure...Shelley Taylor Smith. a successful competitive open water swimmer is a great example of a world class swimmer with a body type like mine. sometimes her kick cavitates bubbles, but for the most part they don't splash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaf0-8Olhk8

Janet Evan's kick is barely visible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw

Keri-Anne Payne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuC8OXQE9nc

If you watch this race from above, Laure Manaudou has the smallest kick of any of these swimmers and wins the race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llRUNnQVJqg

Here is Darbi Roberts, the pro triathlete I mentioned earlier in the thread...she swam a 51 minute IM last year at Arizona...I see no splashes here either.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zif5fs7dbswwcob/P2290014.MOV?dl=0


There are lots of examples, you're just not looking for them. You don't see what you don't know to look for. If you spend time looking for these athletes swimming at less than race pace like Darbi is you'll see even less, and without underwater footage you'd never know that the legs were a delibarate part of the stroke and think the legs were just dragging behind.

You must not have noticed that my hips are at the surface with every rotation...its excellent body position. (I have great distribution of body fat to guarantee that.) The legs should draft the torso not splash. My legs are generally straight and the feet are just under the surface, unless I bend my knees in which case I can certainly make them appear at the surface. S

My point in showing several case studies of TI swimmers in this thread was to give the OP several examples of fast, successful, results oriented athletes who use TI principals and teaching methods. Your comment that TI teaches major flaws is not an accurate reflection of real world results.




OK basically I have no idea what TI is or how it differs from conventional freestyle. It seems a lot of the videos show TI swimmers with a very low stroke rate (although yours is quite high), that's the only thing I can figure out.
2016-07-27 2:02 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by zedzded I don't care who she is. She has poor body position and has a poor kick. This is a triathlon forum, people want to know how to swim fast, they don't give a crap about swimming gracefully or ensuring they don't splash when they kick and if they do, they're on the wrong forum. I can't say I've ever seen one competitive swimmer that swims with a kick like Suzanne's, perhaps you might be able to find one though?
Sure...Shelley Taylor Smith. a successful competitive open water swimmer is a great example of a world class swimmer with a body type like mine. sometimes her kick cavitates bubbles, but for the most part they don't splash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaf0-8Olhk8Janet Evan's kick is barely visible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuwKeri-Anne Payne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuC8OXQE9ncIf you watch this race from above, Laure Manaudou has the smallest kick of any of these swimmers and wins the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llRUNnQVJqgHere is Darbi Roberts, the pro triathlete I mentioned earlier in the thread...she swam a 51 minute IM last year at Arizona...I see no splashes here either. https://www.dropbox.com/s/zif5fs7dbswwcob/P2290014.MOV?dl=0There are lots of examples, you're just not looking for them. You don't see what you don't know to look for. If you spend time looking for these athletes swimming at less than race pace like Darbi is you'll see even less, and without underwater footage you'd never know that the legs were a delibarate part of the stroke and think the legs were just dragging behind. You must not have noticed that my hips are at the surface with every rotation...its excellent body position. (I have great distribution of body fat to guarantee that.) The legs should draft the torso not splash. My legs are generally straight and the feet are just under the surface, unless I bend my knees in which case I can certainly make them appear at the surface. S My point in showing several case studies of TI swimmers in this thread was to give the OP several examples of fast, successful, results oriented athletes who use TI principals and teaching methods. Your comment that TI teaches major flaws is not an accurate reflection of real world results.
OK basically I have no idea what TI is or how it differs from conventional freestyle. It seems a lot of the videos show TI swimmers with a very low stroke rate (although yours is quite high), that's the only thing I can figure out.

Hence my statement that you should rethink what you think you know about TI.  You say you don't understand how it differs from conventional freestyle.  That's because it doesn't.  Fast swimming is fast swimming. The difference is just in how areas for improvement are identified and changes implemented.  The objectives are the same as any other methodology: fast swimming with energy conservation via reduced drag, increased lift, and increased power production.  If you think Suzanne has poor balance in the water, and the only thing you pick out of those videos is that they seem to have a slower stroke rate, then you may also want to reconsider your assumptions regarding what makes an athlete a fast and energy efficient swimmer.  One resource I like is Jim Gourley's book "Faster: Demystifying the Science of Triathlon Speed ". 

2016-07-27 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Total Immersion swimming
I learned to swim from various youtube videos and didn't like TI videos and explanations at first but after much frustration, I eventually conformed towards what TI was teaching all along. I started to think everything I was doing as wrong. Somewhere along the way I went from a six beat kick to a two beat except my kicks were reversed. I never developed the cross body connection in fact I had done the opposite. I approached TI again despite much of it feeling unnatural and was slower with the cross-body. I stuck with it and am now faster than I was before. I feel like my kicks are more purposeful than simply twitching as a side effect. The movements feel more as a system working together with a smooth roll, stroke, and streamlined breath. I kind of want to see how my old technique measures just for fun.

Edited by runtim23 2016-07-27 9:55 AM
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