General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event Rss Feed  
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2016-07-20 12:00 PM

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Subject: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may
result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

Edited by BuckHamilton 2016-07-20 12:00 PM


2016-07-20 12:04 PM
in reply to: BuckHamilton

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
running up the shore line instead of swimming will get you DQ'ed.

This is a 3 sport event, if you can't swim, don't sign up.
2016-07-20 12:22 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by mike761 running up the shore line instead of swimming will get you DQ'ed. This is a 3 sport event, if you can't swim, don't sign up.

wrong.  as long as you go around the buoys you are fine.

2016-07-20 12:32 PM
in reply to: BuckHamilton

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
There was a guy on the forum a few years ago who figured out he was faster (in a pool tri) by dolphin diving and not swimming (he was fully capable of swimming the distance). So.....he dolphin-dove the entire swim leg.

There's a story in 'Becoming an Ironman' about one of the first Hawaii ironmans when they brought in some stud from across the pond to compete. They put the swim in a shallow part of the body of water and this guy walked the entire 2.4 mi. He couldn't swim a lick.

So yes......it's been done.
2016-07-20 12:37 PM
in reply to: BuckHamilton

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO

2016-07-20 12:48 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO

I think it has to be noted that you cannot exit the water for it to be a violation ?  I read about a race a ways back where this was an issue because part of the swim was really close to the shore.  I say it has to be noted because then it becomes a matter of following the prescribed course

a. Entire Course. Participants must cover the prescribed course in its entirety. It is the participant’s responsibility to know the course. Any violation of this section, even if no advantage is gained, shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l). In the event the Head Referee makes such a determination, the penalty shall be disqualification.

 



2016-07-20 12:55 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO




I think most ref's would give at least a time penalty if not a DQ for running up the side of the river instead of swimming. It's a different story if your a bad swimmer and you stand or slow walk(slower than the swimmers) in waste deep water to stop from drowning. If your just trying to go faster and get an advantage by running up the side in ankle deep water your a total D'bag. IMHO
2016-07-20 1:00 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Well hell......if you can run up the shore in ankle deep water I'm taking my bike.

2016-07-20 1:01 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO

I think it has to be noted that you cannot exit the water for it to be a violation ?  I read about a race a ways back where this was an issue because part of the swim was really close to the shore.  I say it has to be noted because then it becomes a matter of following the prescribed course

a. Entire Course. Participants must cover the prescribed course in its entirety. It is the participant’s responsibility to know the course. Any violation of this section, even if no advantage is gained, shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l). In the event the Head Referee makes such a determination, the penalty shall be disqualification.

 

Well, you're parsing exiting the water, and sounds like you're looking for a justification to run in really shallow water for some unexplained reason.  

2016-07-20 1:07 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO

I think it has to be noted that you cannot exit the water for it to be a violation ?  I read about a race a ways back where this was an issue because part of the swim was really close to the shore.  I say it has to be noted because then it becomes a matter of following the prescribed course

a. Entire Course. Participants must cover the prescribed course in its entirety. It is the participant’s responsibility to know the course. Any violation of this section, even if no advantage is gained, shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l). In the event the Head Referee makes such a determination, the penalty shall be disqualification.

 

Well, you're parsing exiting the water, and sounds like you're looking for a justification to run in really shallow water for some unexplained reason.  

Try again.   It goes in context with the rule you posted.  About how to AVOID people running the swim course. 

2016-07-20 1:30 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO

I think it has to be noted that you cannot exit the water for it to be a violation ?  I read about a race a ways back where this was an issue because part of the swim was really close to the shore.  I say it has to be noted because then it becomes a matter of following the prescribed course

a. Entire Course. Participants must cover the prescribed course in its entirety. It is the participant’s responsibility to know the course. Any violation of this section, even if no advantage is gained, shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l). In the event the Head Referee makes such a determination, the penalty shall be disqualification.

 

Well, you're parsing exiting the water, and sounds like you're looking for a justification to run in really shallow water for some unexplained reason.  

Try again.   It goes in context with the rule you posted.  About how to AVOID people running the swim course. 

 

Sorry, glanced quickly and thought you were the OP.   sharks and aircraft carriers (?) all look alike to me



2016-07-20 1:34 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

No worries, I thought you were messing with me. 

That's a ferry.  East coast variation of Escape from Alcatraz.

2016-07-20 1:40 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
I think I could do a 1.25 miles of walking in 6 inches of water in about 20 min compared to 40 minutes of swimming it. plus if there s a good current walking upstream walking would be faster than swimming in the current. I do not see where I would be breaking the rule walking 3 inches of water as the course is defined as to the right of the buoys. I am not leaving the water


Just having some fun with this as it popped into my head during a long swim workout.
2016-07-20 1:43 PM
in reply to: BuckHamilton

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
plus its fun to get a good argument going here
2016-07-20 1:52 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO




I think most ref's would give at least a time penalty if not a DQ for running up the side of the river instead of swimming. It's a different story if your a bad swimmer and you stand or slow walk(slower than the swimmers) in waste deep water to stop from drowning. If your just trying to go faster and get an advantage by running up the side in ankle deep water your a total D'bag. IMHO


Probably not, especially if lots of people are doing it.The Buffalo Springs Lake HIM is a beach start on a small cove. A few years ago, when the gun went off to start the men's pro wave, the pro's took off running along the shore of the cove for about 200-yards to the main body of the lake, then waded in and started swimming. All the following waves saw what they did and followed suit. Ref's reviewed the rules, and concluded there was nothing that prevented this. The next year (and every year since), the RD has put buoys on both sides of the beach and made a channel that the rules explicitly required people to stay inside.

The IM races in both Louisville and The Woodlands typically have people walking during shallow portions of the swim, but these sections are usually 3' or 4' deep. Even slow swimmers end up passing them, but that's a little different than running along the shore or wading in ankle deep water.
2016-07-20 2:00 PM
in reply to: BuckHamilton

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by BuckHamilton plus its fun to get a good argument going here

Post a thread "Why you must flip turn"

That should do it.

In ocean swims, which I know are not governed by the same rules, the smart swimmers run the beach to get as close to and the straightest line to the first buoy before entering the water



2016-07-20 2:02 PM
in reply to: g_shotts

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

Originally posted by g_shotts
Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO

I think most ref's would give at least a time penalty if not a DQ for running up the side of the river instead of swimming. It's a different story if your a bad swimmer and you stand or slow walk(slower than the swimmers) in waste deep water to stop from drowning. If your just trying to go faster and get an advantage by running up the side in ankle deep water your a total D'bag. IMHO
Probably not, especially if lots of people are doing it.The Buffalo Springs Lake HIM is a beach start on a small cove. A few years ago, when the gun went off to start the men's pro wave, the pro's took off running along the shore of the cove for about 200-yards to the main body of the lake, then waded in and started swimming. All the following waves saw what they did and followed suit. Ref's reviewed the rules, and concluded there was nothing that prevented this. The next year (and every year since), the RD has put buoys on both sides of the beach and made a channel that the rules explicitly required people to stay inside. The IM races in both Louisville and The Woodlands typically have people walking during shallow portions of the swim, but these sections are usually 3' or 4' deep. Even slow swimmers end up passing them, but that's a little different than running along the shore or wading in ankle deep water.

 

Yeah, as long as you round turn buoys on the right side, you've done the course.  If they set them up so you can run to a closer entry, that's not illegal (IMO)

2016-07-21 8:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

 

" Probably not, especially if lots of people are doing it.The Buffalo Springs Lake HIM is a beach start on a small cove. A few years ago, when the gun went off to start the men's pro wave, the pro's took off running along the shore of the cove for about 200-yards to the main body of the lake, then waded in and started swimming. All the following waves saw what they did and followed suit. Ref's reviewed the rules, and concluded there was nothing that prevented this. The next year (and every year since), the RD has put buoys on both sides of the beach and made a channel that the rules explicitly required people to stay inside. The IM races in both Louisville and The Woodlands typically have people walking during shallow portions of the swim, but these sections are usually 3' or 4' deep. Even slow swimmers end up passing them, but that's a little different than running along the shore or wading in ankle deep water."

That might have been the race I couldn't remember earlier.



Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2016-07-21 8:43 AM
2016-07-21 11:01 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by g_shotts
Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BuckHamilton this is for you rules officals out there. the race I am looking it is a swim in a narrow river where you swim upstream then turn arround and swim downstream back to swim exit. the rules say "Swimmers are required to stay on course, swim clockwise, and keep turn buoys on their right. Failure to do so may result in disqualification.". So if went wide to the left I would be in shallow water and I could walk up the side of the river on the river bank. is there a rule of how close to the buoys you need to be?

USAT sanctioned?  Legal:

 

4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress. A violation of this section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his/her sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(1).

Sounds miserable to me, but legal.   And I think getting into ankle deep water and running may (should IMO) get you into hot water.   That's a violation of the spirit if not the letter

IMO

I think most ref's would give at least a time penalty if not a DQ for running up the side of the river instead of swimming. It's a different story if your a bad swimmer and you stand or slow walk(slower than the swimmers) in waste deep water to stop from drowning. If your just trying to go faster and get an advantage by running up the side in ankle deep water your a total D'bag. IMHO
Probably not, especially if lots of people are doing it.The Buffalo Springs Lake HIM is a beach start on a small cove. A few years ago, when the gun went off to start the men's pro wave, the pro's took off running along the shore of the cove for about 200-yards to the main body of the lake, then waded in and started swimming. All the following waves saw what they did and followed suit. Ref's reviewed the rules, and concluded there was nothing that prevented this. The next year (and every year since), the RD has put buoys on both sides of the beach and made a channel that the rules explicitly required people to stay inside. The IM races in both Louisville and The Woodlands typically have people walking during shallow portions of the swim, but these sections are usually 3' or 4' deep. Even slow swimmers end up passing them, but that's a little different than running along the shore or wading in ankle deep water.

 

Yeah, as long as you round turn buoys on the right side, you've done the course.  If they set them up so you can run to a closer entry, that's not illegal (IMO)




It's one thing to run 100 yards to line up with the first buoy, totally different to run half the swim coarse. technically you may not get DQ, in the spirit of the race you should be slapped.
2016-07-21 11:34 AM
in reply to: g_shotts

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
I think the lots of people doing it criteria may be important. A few years ago, I did a race with a river swim. We passed the mouth of a small tributary, and there was so much material deposited out into the main river that my hands were brushing against it. Everyone just stood up and ran until the water got deep again.
2016-07-21 2:00 PM
in reply to: BuckHamilton


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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
Originally posted by BuckHamilton

I think I could do a 1.25 miles of walking in 6 inches of water in about 20 min compared to 40 minutes of swimming it. plus if there s a good current walking upstream walking would be faster than swimming in the current. I do not see where I would be breaking the rule walking 3 inches of water as the course is defined as to the right of the buoys. I am not leaving the water


Just having some fun with this as it popped into my head during a long swim workout.


I would also try foregoing all training for this event. Since you won't be swimming, you'll save so much energy so you don't need to train for the bike and run.



2016-07-22 9:27 AM
in reply to: TriTampa2

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event
I just have to hook up the electric motor to my bike and put the wheels in my shoes and I will bet set
2016-07-22 9:41 AM
in reply to: BuckHamilton

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Subject: RE: Do you have to swim in the swim section of the event

My race director told us at one race, people could walk the swim course in the shallow water but they would not be eligible for awards.
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