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swimming mystery
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 2016-07-25 10:10 AM |
 439   nashville, Tennessee |  Subject: swimming mysterySwimming just boggles my mind. I've been racing for 5 years and still suck at swimming. I have studied technique, watched videos, and try to implement the right technique. AND STILL, I get exhausted swimming. I'm front of pack on bike and run, and bottom of pack on swim. So when I take a long time off from swimming, I can get in and swim about 100 yds before I am gasping for air and arms are burning. I can build up but its extremely hard for me to build up to the point that I can swim 500 yds continuous using just freestyle. EVERY SINGLE other person that I know that has started triathlons as a beginner, can quickly get to the point that they can swim 1000's of yards continuous freestyle. Not fast, but nonstop. This may take them a month to get to that point. The point of my thread is that I have a friend, with no competitive swim background, who races with me but doesn't train hard. He doesn't have to train at all for the swim. He swam the other day for the first time in several months, and did 1500 meters at 1:24/100 pace. And he said he went nice and easy. HOW THE HECK IS THIS POSSIBLE. When I'm in my best swim shape, if I swim as fast as I possibly can for 100yds, I can only go about 1:30. But here's the thing that kills me. The way our bodies float in the water. I have compared myself to him and a couple others. He can stretch out his body on top of the water, and he floats from his fingers all the way to his toes. When I stretch out(with full lungs), my legs immediately begin sinking to the bottom, followed by my upper body. Within 20 seconds, my whole body will be laying on the bottom of the pool. We are essentially the same size. 6' 170 lbs. I have skinnier legs and slightly thinner upper body. I watch some swim videos where the person teaching acts like its a given that everyone can just float if they are in the right position. NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME. I have tried numerous times. So basically, my friend, he only has to expend energy to move himself forward, never has to fight for a breath since his head naturally sits on top of water. Me, I have to expend energy to stay up, AND to move forward, and my head is completely underwater so I have to make sure I get high enough to get a breath. He watched me swim a lap the other day and he said, "Dude you're completely underwater." My response, well I wish I had a built in wetsuit like you have. Anyway, its amazing to me that swimming has almost nothing to do with fitness and endurance, and everything to do with body type and technique. Because if he can jump in a pool after several months off and swim 1500 m at 1:24/100 pace, and that's easy for him, it makes me think you've just gotta be born with the right body type, because if you watched our technique it wouldn't be a drastic difference. I guess I just have to suck it up and do the best with what I've got. |
| 2016-07-25 10:21 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Coach 9167  Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Mat Hudson write a lot about this. He is a swim coach that lived in turkey for 7 years running camps, OW clinics and private lessons in the sea, and recently moved back to Oregon to do the same. Here 's a 2 part series he wrote about heavy legs & sinkers. https://smoothstrokes.wordpress.com/2014/08/03/remedy-for-sinkers-pa... https://smoothstrokes.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/remedy-for-sinkers-pa... Incidentally, I float realy well like your friend does. Once in awhile I put on a scuba weight belt to sink my hips so that I can feel what it's like to need to make that muscular correction so that I can coach it better. I agree it's more challenging but its just challenging in a different way. And your'e not the only one...these guys don't float at all...it's the UGA Swim & Dive team dancing...on the bottom of the pool... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkNrSpqUr-E |
| 2016-07-25 10:29 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| Deep in the Heart of Texas | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Swim has a lot to do with fitness and endurance its just swim fitness and endurance is different than that of running and cycling. If you keep taking off from swimming and are having a hard time when you start back up, its because you don't have swim fitness and endurance. Even thought you have studied technique, watched videos, and "implemented" right technique, if you take a long time off from swimming you're never going to get much better. I know some mediocre swimmers that take time off of swimming between races and all they will ever be is mediocre. There are some swimmers that can take time off and regain their swimming in a short period of time, but I would suggest that most of them have significant swimming backgrounds to pull from. |
| 2016-07-25 11:00 AM in reply to: Hook'em |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: swimming mystery But isn't it odd, that 2 people with no competitive swim background, can take several months off from swimming, and one can swim 1500 meters at 1:24 pace, and the other can swim 50 yds at 1:45 pace and arms are burning and gasping for air? There's something else going on. |
| 2016-07-25 11:55 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Member 1748  Exton, PA | Subject: RE: swimming mystery At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. |
| 2016-07-25 11:58 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 But isn't it odd, that 2 people with no competitive swim background, can take several months off from swimming, and one can swim 1500 meters at 1:24 pace, and the other can swim 50 yds at 1:45 pace and arms are burning and gasping for air? There's something else going on. Are you sure on that time he is claiming? That is REALLY fast. Could it be 1,500 yds? Or maybe a miss count? If he can jump in the pool with no competitive background and with no training and swim a 21 flat 1,500 then the dude missed his calling.... I personally am like you. I sink like a stone. Especially my legs. They just instantly drop. However, without much effort I can keep pretty good body position while moving. If you are having that much trouble, I don't think it is a body composition issue. I think it is a technique issue. |
| 2016-07-25 12:25 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by mchadcota2 But isn't it odd, that 2 people with no competitive swim background, can take several months off from swimming, and one can swim 1500 meters at 1:24 pace, and the other can swim 50 yds at 1:45 pace and arms are burning and gasping for air? There's something else going on. Are you sure on that time he is claiming? That is REALLY fast. Could it be 1,500 yds? Or maybe a miss count? If he can jump in the pool with no competitive background and with no training and swim a 21 flat 1,500 then the dude missed his calling.... I personally am like you. I sink like a stone. Especially my legs. They just instantly drop. However, without much effort I can keep pretty good body position while moving. If you are having that much trouble, I don't think it is a body composition issue. I think it is a technique issue. I thought the same thing. That's what, holding 1:17's in yds. 1500 yds in 21 mins would be I think 1:24 pace. Which is still pretty good coming after a layoff Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2016-07-25 12:27 PM |
| 2016-07-25 12:35 PM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by mchadcota2 But isn't it odd, that 2 people with no competitive swim background, can take several months off from swimming, and one can swim 1500 meters at 1:24 pace, and the other can swim 50 yds at 1:45 pace and arms are burning and gasping for air? There's something else going on. Are you sure on that time he is claiming? That is REALLY fast. Could it be 1,500 yds? Or maybe a miss count? If he can jump in the pool with no competitive background and with no training and swim a 21 flat 1,500 then the dude missed his calling.... I personally am like you. I sink like a stone. Especially my legs. They just instantly drop. However, without much effort I can keep pretty good body position while moving. If you are having that much trouble, I don't think it is a body composition issue. I think it is a technique issue. I thought the same thing. That's what, holding 1:17's in yds. 1500 yds in 21 mins would be I think 1:24 pace. Which is still pretty good coming after a layoff Closer to 1:16 I think. I try not to place doubt on these types of claims, because every once in a while you get an outlier, but more often than not, it's a case of miscounting, a mistake on yds vs meters, or just exaggeration. I had a coworker that got into tris and was asking me for some beginner advice. I asked him what his times were and he said the previous day, he had his wife time him in a 25m pool. He did a 300m time trial in 3:3X. I asked him if he was a competitive swimmer in the past, and he said nope, just started training. So I was cautiously optimistic we had a sleeper phenom on the loose since I had no reason to think he'd lie (he was a pretty straight forward dude) and he was an engineer, so I figured he knew his units, but the next day he emailed to say that his wife reminded him that it was 200 meters, not 300...oops. Part of me thinks he was in a 25 yard pool as well, but still not bad at all. |
| 2016-07-25 12:38 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. You missed the point of my thread. Its not about why I suck. Its why other beginners or people who do not work at it at all can swim all day long and it doesn't make them tired. Why someone who has never had a lesson or competitive swim background can not swim for months, and go to the pool and hammer out 1500 meters at a 1:24 pace. |
| 2016-07-25 12:43 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Yeah I'm actually questioning the accuracy of his claim. He wouldn't lie. But also I know he went to some outdoor pool/splash pad for kids that had a lane to swim in. He said he asked someone if the pool was 25 yards or meters and they said meters. But I don't care if its yards, its still extremely fast! Something just doesn't add up. |
| 2016-07-25 1:05 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 Yeah I'm actually questioning the accuracy of his claim. He wouldn't lie. But also I know he went to some outdoor pool/splash pad for kids that had a lane to swim in. He said he asked someone if the pool was 25 yards or meters and they said meters. But I don't care if its yards, its still extremely fast! Something just doesn't add up. Most people I ask at gyms don't have any clue and will just say back whatever they hear. So at a community pool, I wouldn't be surprised if the lifeguard or whatever was like..."oh yeah....ummm...meters...or whatever the second thing you said was." If it was an outdoor community pool, it may have not even been 25 yards. Still, even if it was 20 yards, it's an impressive time for not training. To your original point though; it's not the physical ability to float. I float as well as a stone and I can swim pretty decent. Swimming is VERY technique driven. That's where you should start. Take a video of yourself swimming and post it here. There are some very knowledgeable people that can help you out. Don't be dismayed by thinking that it's unfair because you don't have a certain build, or body composition, or perceived natural ability. Unless you're talking pro-level, none of that trumps hard work in the AG ranks. |
| 2016-07-25 1:29 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. You missed the point of my thread. Its not about why I suck. Its why other beginners or people who do not work at it at all can swim all day long and it doesn't make them tired. Why someone who has never had a lesson or competitive swim background can not swim for months, and go to the pool and hammer out 1500 meters at a 1:24 pace. There are people who just naturally have a good feel for the water. It's probably rare as an adult but I've known a couple. |
| 2016-07-25 2:43 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Extreme Veteran 660 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery easy answer you are swimming to fast slow down get comfortable and the speed will come. Swimming is not like biking or running where the more effort you put in the faster you go. Most new swimmers I have worked with swim way to hard and actually go slower than when the swim easy. |
| 2016-07-25 3:18 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Just a couple of comments relative to the OP: 1. I came from a competitive swimming background as a sprinter, but struggled when I started swimming triathlons until I learned how to swim aerobically. TI helped me in that regard, if nothing else getting me thinking more analytically about what I was doing in the water as opposed to just hammering out mindless laps and hoping I would get better. For me, learning to swim aerobically was a function of finding a sustainable combination of technique and tempo. Like running, sometimes that means learning to go slower so you can go further. But while remembering the old axiom, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" 2. As far as body-types, certainly some specific physiques lend themselves to swimming:: tall, broad shoulders, etc. But sometimes you just have to play the hand you're dealt. Do the best you can with the tools you have to work with. If you think of your physique as a limiter, then it will be. I'm built like a fireplug (5'-7" with a 46" chest), but still visualize the technique of swimmers like 6'-7" Nathan Adrian when I'm in the water. Mark
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| 2016-07-25 4:56 PM in reply to: RedCorvette |
| 439 nashville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: swimming mystery The problem with slowing down is, when I go slow, my form falls apart. I have to maintain a certain speed or my legs and hips will sink. Its a conundrum. |
| 2016-07-25 6:38 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 The problem with slowing down is, when I go slow, my form falls apart. I have to maintain a certain speed or my legs and hips will sink. Its a conundrum. That's why I think why I think some of the TI balance and body position drills could help. I have big legs that tended to sink also. A lot of it comes from strengthening your core. When I first started swimming with my Masters group one of the old hands pointed out my dragging legs and would constantly call out to me during practice "When are you going to start swimming like a swimmer instead of a like a triathlete?" Mark |
| 2016-07-26 7:21 AM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 754 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 The problem with slowing down is, when I go slow, my form falls apart. I have to maintain a certain speed or my legs and hips will sink. Its a conundrum. I had my first session with a swim coach last night, and the first thing she did was fix my kick. I don't know what your kick is like, but I have been swimming since early childhood, and no matter how much I train, I am one of the last ones out of the water. My kick was too big. There was so much vertical movement that it was creating drag and making it hard to maintain good body position. All we did was work on my making my kick tight and fluttering during the session, and by the end, a lap of just kicking was faster than I had been in regular freestyle. |
| 2016-07-26 7:23 AM in reply to: happyscientist |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by happyscientist Originally posted by mchadcota2 The problem with slowing down is, when I go slow, my form falls apart. I have to maintain a certain speed or my legs and hips will sink. Its a conundrum. I had my first session with a swim coach last night, and the first thing she did was fix my kick. I don't know what your kick is like, but I have been swimming since early childhood, and no matter how much I train, I am one of the last ones out of the water. My kick was too big. There was so much vertical movement that it was creating drag and making it hard to maintain good body position. All we did was work on my making my kick tight and fluttering during the session, and by the end, a lap of just kicking was faster than I had been in regular freestyle. Good stuff! |
| 2016-07-26 7:36 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: swimming mystery My reply is to the OP. My legs sink like rocks. I'm 6'1"/190#'s. I was in the same place you're in.....less than 1 yr ago. I still struggle with endurance if I fail to throttle back, but I've done swims this year (open water) of 500 m, 650 m, 1500 m and 1.2 mi. I went about my path a little differently than most. I swam with a pull buoy almost exclusively for a few months. It trained me to realize what my body position should feel like and it helped me develop a strong pull (I was able to swim a LOT more). The person I trust most on all things swimming told me a strong pull will overcome most body position issues (once you've gotten to a certain point). Swimming gains come in small increments. Right now, I wouldn't give a flip about swimming fast. I'd do what I had to ....to get to the point I could make my distances. I used to think I'd sink if I slowed down. Now, not so much. I can swim a long time at 2:00/100 (yds). I can swim a little faster and make my tri distances. I can swim a "little" faster and still make my intervals at Masters class. I'm swimming 3X/wk. If I committed to 4X/wk, I know I'd make better gains. I'd tell you "good luck", but there won't be any luck involved  |
| 2016-07-26 9:44 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
Extreme Veteran 660 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery nc452010 - I like the pool buoy trick need to try it next time I work with some one. the key to slowing down is that you eventually relax once you relax and stop worrying about sinking you swim much better. try slowing down for one session even practice floating the point is to get you very comfortable so that relax and not hyperventalte. At my swim club I am know as the swim wisperer. the swim coachs (all who are very good ) send over the people who to me who have ok form but just can not mentally get past swimming more than a length in the pool. its very hard for people who have been swimming for a long time remember the terror of first swimming. |
| 2016-07-26 11:53 AM in reply to: axteraa |
| 754 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by happyscientist Originally posted by mchadcota2 The problem with slowing down is, when I go slow, my form falls apart. I have to maintain a certain speed or my legs and hips will sink. Its a conundrum. I had my first session with a swim coach last night, and the first thing she did was fix my kick. I don't know what your kick is like, but I have been swimming since early childhood, and no matter how much I train, I am one of the last ones out of the water. My kick was too big. There was so much vertical movement that it was creating drag and making it hard to maintain good body position. All we did was work on my making my kick tight and fluttering during the session, and by the end, a lap of just kicking was faster than I had been in regular freestyle. Good stuff! Yeah. I was thrilled. I had tried two other swim "coaches" and I put that in quotes because one of them had never actually coached and had only taught the earliest beginner classes. He literally did not understand that I wasn't afraid of the water or that I could already swim >2000 yards at a stretch because he couldn't, but he had billed himself as a coach. I can't meet with this new woman next week, but she gave me a couple drills and workouts to do for the next two weeks. She said my catch wasn't too bad, but I really need to work on my shoulder rotation, so that is next. I may be getting ahead of myself, but I have dreams of going sub 40 at Savageman 70 this year, which is my next race. Of course, I also have dreams of not overdoing the bike again and having to walk most of the run. |
| 2016-07-26 3:54 PM in reply to: mchadcota2 |
| 216 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mchadcota2 You missed the point of my thread. Its not about why I suck. Its why other beginners or people who do not work at it at all can swim all day long and it doesn't make them tired. Why someone who has never had a lesson or competitive swim background can not swim for months, and go to the pool and hammer out 1500 meters at a 1:24 pace. Your comparison point is supernatural. 1500 meters short course in 21:00 is a feat many who come from a swimming background and still train rigorously year round would struggle to match. |
| 2016-07-26 4:47 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| 249 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. To the OP: I am currently being coached by a college swim coach who has been very successful. I also watch videos, read, and practice, practice, practice technique. I FEEL EXACTLY LIKE YOU. I can be in an OWS in a wetsuit and swim 700 yards with less energy expended than without one in a pool swimming 150. I am 57 years old, and my goal is to be able to somehow, someday, swim a sprint triathlon of 1/4 to half mile without wearing a wetsuit. With a wetsuit, I can do the OWS portion of a sprint in 1:45/100. In the pool, it is right at 2:00, and a hard 2:00. My coach stresses technique, but at some point, it would be nice to see some gains in distance/endurance too. It has become frustrating to always hear: get lessons, work on technique, you are out of shape (no offense to anyone as I love how everyone on here is always willing to help) BUT, as you said, it is not the same as cycling or running. I have made huge gains in those areas over the last 2 years following some specific plans to increase speed and endurance. My legs are muscular, and they sink. I swim 4000 yards a week, which is not much, but I do the best I can with my schedule, and I can't get in the pool for an hour and just bang out 3000 yards. I am shot after 1200. I really have no point in all this except to say you are not alone!! |
| 2016-07-26 6:03 PM in reply to: Burchib |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by Burchib Originally posted by mike761 At no point did you say you actually took the time to take lessons from a competent instructor and learned good form. Nor do you mention how many yards you swim in a week. There is no shortcut to these 2 items, you have to put in the time in both. If you stop for a while the worse your technique is the slower you will be when you start again. Your friend practices different than you do and probably learned to swim better than you did. He also may not be honest with you when he tells you he has not been swimming. I have heard a lot of people getting extra workouts in that they don't tell their friends about, probably just trying to be more competitive. To the OP: I am currently being coached by a college swim coach who has been very successful. I also watch videos, read, and practice, practice, practice technique. I FEEL EXACTLY LIKE YOU. I can be in an OWS in a wetsuit and swim 700 yards with less energy expended than without one in a pool swimming 150. I am 57 years old, and my goal is to be able to somehow, someday, swim a sprint triathlon of 1/4 to half mile without wearing a wetsuit. With a wetsuit, I can do the OWS portion of a sprint in 1:45/100. In the pool, it is right at 2:00, and a hard 2:00. My coach stresses technique, but at some point, it would be nice to see some gains in distance/endurance too. It has become frustrating to always hear: get lessons, work on technique, you are out of shape (no offense to anyone as I love how everyone on here is always willing to help) BUT, as you said, it is not the same as cycling or running. I have made huge gains in those areas over the last 2 years following some specific plans to increase speed and endurance. My legs are muscular, and they sink. I swim 4000 yards a week, which is not much, but I do the best I can with my schedule, and I can't get in the pool for an hour and just bang out 3000 yards. I am shot after 1200. I really have no point in all this except to say you are not alone!! 4000 yards per week is really hardly any swimming at all. I get that you have other obligations in life, etc......but you just can't expect much gain with that kind of yardage.....so give yourself a break and just enjoy it. Those people that you see swimming REALLY fast.....at some point in their lives 95% of them were in a program swimming 30,000 - 60,000 yards per week. (the other 5% aren't as fast as you think they are Your legs don't sink because they are muscular, btw.....they sink because you can't swim. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way.....you just need to understand what you are dealing with. You don't swim enough. |
) Seriously, you might as well just enjoy the time you get in the pool.| 2016-07-26 7:40 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: swimming mystery Originally posted by Left Brain (the other 5% aren't as fast as you think they are Hey..... |
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