I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing (Page 3)

Ok.  I did, and the problem with your scenario is that it's so rare that it may as well be described as something that never happens.  If someone isn't a strong enough swimmer to come out of the water with the lead swimmers, it doesn't matter how great of a cyclist or runner they are.  They've already lost, because everyone else in the race is also a great cyclist and runner, AND swimmer.  DL racing makes the swim much more important than it is in NDL racing.  In NDL racing, even pros can come out of the water with the faster than average AGers, then bike and run their way up onto the podium.  They can be a gifted duathlete, yet still do very well in NDL triathlon.  That simply doesn't happen in DL racing.

And one also has to remember that the goal of draft legal racing, or a lot of sports in general, is not to crown the winner based on pure fitness.  Strategy, decision making, the ability to handle specific situations, and luck come into play in a lot of sports to determine the winner.

I kind of see it more like a race. There are time trails and mass start races. I find mass start races more exciting. Like for the 100m, we don't just send people off one at a time and record their time. I know it isn't the same thing, but in my head I equate draft legal racing to be more like mass start racing which is more exciting to me.

I have no hate for the other sports though. In fact, my friends won a bronze in the team pursuit which is definitely a race against the clock and man that was exciting.

LOL - I've been to 3 WTS races, including 2 world championships, 6 Continental cup races, and watched maybe 25 WTS races,.....additionally, I coached Jrs. for a team whose coach has had 3 athletes in WTS races and 2 World cup athletes (the step below WTS).......and I can't even find a Holiday Inn.    Moreover, I don't know how much time I have on this earth.....but I'm well ahead of my plan to never kick a soccer ball in my entire life. 

BTW - Sarah was paid by Gwen......we  talked about it.

Of course the power files will look completely different between the steady efforts in NDL and the spiky profiles seen in DL.  What I was saying was that in both cases, they're racing as hard as they can that will still allow them to run.  It was in response to the comments that implied that in DL people can just sit in the pack and be pulled along instead of riding hard.  I didn't mean to imply that tactics or race execution were the same, because they're not.

There's not a thing wrong with an unbalanced athlete doing well in NDL racing.  The rules allow that as a viable strategy for some athletes like those you mention, Ben.  The entire point of this conversation is whether doing well at the higher levels of DL racing requires a more balanced triathlete with little relative weaknesses compared to NDL.

FWIW, it's not my opinion that DL rules make it a necessity for anyone who wants to be competitive to be a balanced triathlete with few relative weaknesses.  It's a well established principle among coaches and competitive athletes.  Gwen Jorgensen is a good example of a DL triathlete who had to elevate her swim to a level similar to those of her bike and run before she could compete for the podium at the top level.  Her swim, though fast, wasn't quite fast enough for her to come out of the water with the lead pack, so she was always playing catch up on the bike, burning too many matches to be able to unleash her full running abilities.  Once she improved her swim, she began dominating.

Thanks for the examples. Shows that it does happen at least on occasion at least. Do you follow enough to say if it happens more regular? I know, could be a tough question.

Yeah, definitely very different styles. I can't think of great examples, but maybe just exhibiting some of the traits. Golf really goes independent of what the others are doing. Risks taken may be influenced by how well other competitors are doing, but the shots taken really has no direct affect on where your ball goes. They can't block or redirect it. In tennis there will be a much more profound effect as the movement absolutely depends on the what the other does. Whoever imposes their will better tends to win the match.

Yeah, did notice that the selection tends to happen a little more in bigger races, or maybe more so ones where there is country or nationality representation? Although my question isn't so much in the selection process but in the race itself. Has this had a profound effect on the race? Hayes was picked, but did he really have to do anything to help the Brownlees? In the Olympics at least, it doesn't seem like the selection of domestiques has really altered the game though would definitely like to know if this was being overlooked. Gwen got herself up to the front pack on the bike. Sarah & Katie were at the back early on, but they didn't drop back to offer Gwen a wheel to make sure she got there. Spirig badly wanted to do something in the bike, but had no help from anyone, Switzerland or otherwise. Some of that could be her own fault in her methods of attacking, but didn't recognize another up front trying to help her. There could be some things going on, but without seeing more it seems like the domestique potential influence could be getting hyped up a bit.

Spirig could also be an example of the frustrations with drafting. She clearly did the most work on the bike, but not sure she really got anything out of her efforts as she didn't break away and her biggest competition seemed fine. Gwen has certainly gotten better on the bike, but don't know if she's yet on par with the other top racers.

Even these don't seem that compelling towards substantially altering the race. "Kind of" or "maybe" at best. The more I think about it, the more I seem fine with it, but in the context of a draft legal race. And probably in one that has the representation like the Olympics where they are more small-sided teams instead of being totally individual, finding myself a bit disappointed there hasn't been more going on, actually. Although, blocking does seem a bit cheap.

Actually no......let me fix it for you.....Many of the ITU's most successful triathletes swim better then 90% of the others so that they are able to catch the front bike pack, which then moves along at an effort that most non-draft legal triathletes couldn't come close to keeping up at because of all the surges, then they out run everyone.

Again......lot's of triathlon "urban legend" in all of the domestique talk.

This just goes to show that you have no understanding of how the race works.  Go to a local crit and just "sit in". You'll see how easy it is for you.

I just went back and looked at my kid's power file from Jr Elite Nationals.(since that's all I have from a recent DL race)  He and a few others have elite cards but they are still working their way forward, obviously, so it's no WTS race.  He was in a chase pack that eventually reeled in all but 2 riders who had a big lead out of the swim.  He and 2 others pulled the majority of the race.  13.2 miles, 4 laps. One of his teammates had been dropped out of the first chase pack on lap 2 so he was working to try to pull him back up since my kid wasn't really in run shape after recovering from mono.  Yes, the eventual winner benefited from the pull, as did others, but still others were spit out the back.  Everybody who stayed in that pack can thrash an AG non drafting race.

Avg. power 314W....doesn't really tell the story with the 90's and 180"s.

Normalized power 346W

Max power 1178W

Avg. speed 24.7

Top speed 39.9

17 times he was over 650 watts.  5 times he was over 800 Watts.  Twice he was over 1000 watts.

Yeah......just get in there and sit in.....oh yeah.....these are children.  

The bike leg of a WTS DL race is insane.