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2016-10-17 12:10 PM

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Subject: Question on running hills
I know there's (at least) two ways to build fitness/endurance.......volume and intensity. Getting ready for 2017, I'm going the volume route. I'm signed up for a 70.3 that's purported to have a "hilly" run course. So, I plan to run a lot of hills.

So, in adding volume, how do you suggest I deal with my HR when I encounter hills? For training purposes, how much and how long would it be acceptable (optimal?) to exceed HR targets? Is this asking for trouble (adding intensity....while also building volume)?

Or, am I over-thinking this......and should "just run"?


2016-10-17 12:58 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Yes, you're over-thinking it.  If you are concerned, just use time as your measure of volume and let the terrain/conditions dictate how far you happen to go in any run.  Don't stress if your HR goes "too high" now and then on some hills.  In fact, don't watch your HR much during your run.  If it's staying too high for too long, you'll know.

2016-10-17 1:08 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Just listen to your body.  You need to learn from experience how hard you can go on an uphill and then recover to your same pace on the flat pretty quickly.  I like to run the same course over and over (we engineers have a high threshold for boredom and high inquisitively for good data) to learn how it feels and have a number of trials of the course for comparison.  Most people think it is an advantage to have run the race course a couple of times to learn pacing on the hills.  

TW

 

2016-10-17 1:19 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

In general, intensity builds speed, and volume builds endurance.  A half-Ironman is about endurance first, speed second. Many people think you can go shorter distance at faster speed, then on race day go longer distance and slower speed and it will be the same. That may work for Olympic distance races, and it may work for some at HIM distance, but not many. And it doesn't work at IM distance. So yes, volume is the right route.

Adding too much intensity and too much volume at the same time can be problematic.  Read up about IT band syndrome (ITBS) here: http://www.runnersworld.com/tag/it-band-syndrome

When training for my first marathon back in 2004, I was hit hard by ITBS. I added a lot of intensity by substituting hill runs for long workouts.  I also did it on local roads with a lot of crown.  Crowned roads + lots of hill running + inexperienced runner = ITBS. 

The HR approach to hills vary. if it's a fairly flat course with only a few hills, then HR isn't much of a problem.  I'll try to keep most of my pace and let my HR drift up to whatever it's going to reach.  If it's a hilly course, then you can't run the whole race like that.  Instead, I'll keep my HR at a lower "redline" rather than let it go.

What 70.3 are you doing?

2016-10-17 1:48 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills
Chattanooga
2016-10-17 2:41 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Originally posted by nc452010 Chattanooga

Chattanooga run was hillier than I expected, but it's not "hilly" to the extent where one needs specific hill work to prepare for.  IMO.  My trainingpeaks file shows about 520 feet of total elevation over 12 miles.

 But if you do train hills the above advice is solid, your HR will be elevated but just run at a pace that allows you to recover on the flats/downhills and get your legs back.  Your HR will also adapt the more hills you run.  



Edited by ChrisM 2016-10-17 2:44 PM


2016-10-17 2:44 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills
I hope you're right. IM site says 800 (over 13.1).

i still have no idea if that's a little or a lot, honestly.
2016-10-17 2:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Originally posted by nc452010 I hope you're right. IM site says 800 (over 13.1). i still have no idea if that's a little or a lot, honestly.

Here's my garmin file, usually fairly accurate but it is different than WTC's.  Always difficult to know which ones are accurate

Chatt 70.3

Everyone is different, personally I think anything with 100 foot per mile is very hilly.  

The only real sustained hill is coming out of T2, which you only do once, the rest are shorter an sharper, even though those bridges look bad on the graph.  I thought the bridges would be the hard climbs, but they are actually pretty gradual.  The ones that hurt were the short, sharp ones, right before crossing Veterans Bridge and then the turn around on the far side of that same bridge.  

BTW, running hills certain;y won't hurt you, it will generally make you a stronger runner IMO, and it's usually on trails, or much of it is, so it's more fun.  And it would help with that course, I just think that if someone was coming from Florida and had no hills at all to train on, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.



Edited by ChrisM 2016-10-17 2:56 PM
2016-10-17 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Originally posted by nc452010 I hope you're right. IM site says 800 (over 13.1). i still have no idea if that's a little or a lot, honestly.

I live near Seattle and we have lots of hills.  800 feet over 13.1 would be likely considered "very hilly" by most triathletes, but not by a pure runner. There's a big difference in running an open half marathon vs. running 13.1 miles after the swim and bike. This is why I always refer to the run as a run, not as a "half marathon" or a "marathon" because other than the distance, the HIM / IM run has not that much to do with a half or full marathon. It requires a different approach.

Example: here's a local half marathon with 548 fee elevation gain: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1156536430. There's a descent at the start, then a slow false flat to a short steep descent, then another false flat up to a series of descents, another big climb, then rollers, then a mean little hill at the finish line. Few people consider this "hilly", they call it "some hills".

BTW my best sport is running, and I do a lot of running races. So far this year one full marathon, seven half marathons, a 5K, a 12K, and a half Ironman.  The end of this month I'm racing IM Austin 70.3, then flying to NYC to run the marathon a week later.

Here's one I did with 778 feet of gain: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1069479619 This one was an out-and-back and was mostly flat with one spot that had a big descent down to a creek then back up the other side. That little ravine was beautiful but tough. The official site says "This trail has spectacular views and very few hills, just enough hills to make it interesting and break up the flat sections."

The Seattle half marathon: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1069479174 715 feet of gain.  The official site says it's a "rolling course with hilly sections", and I agree.  There's one infamous section where for two blocks the hill is so steep there are steps in the sidewalk like a stadium.

Anyway, back to your half IM.  Looking at ChrisM's data, that looks like some rollers. A lot of 50 foot up, 50 foot down. Rollers are kind of debilitating over time. A big hill is easy to recognize as "man, I have to slow it down for this one", but a series of rollers tempt you to just power through and that saps your strength. My advice is to find a running route that has rollers like that and train on it.  You really only half to find one hill that's say 50 to 75 feet, and then run repeats on it. A half mile of flat, up and down the hill, another half mile, turn around.  That sort of thing.  And for the short steep sections, find a climb like that and repeat on it. The Seattle half (and IMAZ and others) have climbs up to overpasses and bridge decks which I often walk, because they are just too steep.  Or I shorten my stride and slow down to a 12 minute pace and just power up.

I did a half marathon in Memphis earlier this year and enjoyed it. Now you have me looking at Chattanooga and it's tempting.  May 21st would be a good time for me.



Edited by brucemorgan 2016-10-17 3:35 PM
2016-10-17 4:01 PM
in reply to: tech_geezer

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Originally posted by tech_geezer

Just listen to your body.  You need to learn from experience how hard you can go on an uphill and then recover to your same pace on the flat pretty quickly.  I like to run the same course over and over (we engineers have a high threshold for boredom and high inquisitively for good data) to learn how it feels and have a number of trials of the course for comparison.  Most people think it is an advantage to have run the race course a couple of times to learn pacing on the hills.  

TW

 

 

THIS  2X!!!

2016-10-17 4:15 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Anyway, back to your half IM.  Looking at ChrisM's data, that looks like some rollers. A lot of 50 foot up, 50 foot down. Rollers are kind of debilitating over time. A big hill is easy to recognize as "man, I have to slow it down for this one", but a series of rollers tempt you to just power through and that saps your strength. My advice is to find a running route that has rollers like that and train on it.  You really only half to find one hill that's say 50 to 75 feet, and then run repeats on it. A half mile of flat, up and down the hill, another half mile, turn around.  That sort of thing.  And for the short steep sections, find a climb like that and repeat on it. The Seattle half (and IMAZ and others) have climbs up to overpasses and bridge decks which I often walk, because they are just too steep.  Or I shorten my stride and slow down to a 12 minute pace and just power up.

I did a half marathon in Memphis earlier this year and enjoyed it. Now you have me looking at Chattanooga and it's tempting.  May 21st would be a good time for me.

That's a fair characterization of the run I think.  And by the way the bike is sorta the same.  People describe the IM Wisconsin bike course as pretty hard, even though it's largely rollers I believe, but they do start to add up.  The only big "hill" on the run is out of T2, the rest are just sneaky leg zappers.  

My only real other piece of Chatt advice is do whatever it takes to get to the front of the line on the swim.  Makes a HUGE difference on the bike course as it gets very very crowded.  I was in the first 50 or so people and had parts of the course where I saw no one in front of me.   Eventually the faster folks and (unfortunately) draft packs will catch you, but the longer you can put that off the better.  



2016-10-17 4:15 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills
Bruce...

I signed up for Choo on Saturday. A friend emailed me this morning and said it was full. Maybe I was the last one to get in?....lol

I live in the foothills of the blue ridge mountains. I have a route I run (getting ready to do 7 miles, right now). I have no idea how much elevation gain is in it......but, we'll find out

Thanks for all of your responses. I run by HR. In my 1st 70.3 this year, it was elevated (from what I wanted it to be), but I made it through, running the whole time. In the 2nd 70.3, it was so high I was doomed. Cramped badly from mile 7, on.

If I'm trying to keep it below a "not to exceed" HR....I'm still not sure how I manage the hills.....unless I commit to walking, if that's what it takes. I get that, for my race. But, for training runs.....I just "do it" (no regard to HR)?
2016-10-17 5:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Originally posted by nc452010I'm still not sure how I manage the hills.....unless I commit to walking, if that's what it takes. I get that, for my race. But, for training runs.....I just "do it" (no regard to HR)?

I used to run strictly to HR, but these days I run more to pace and monitor HR so I won't blow up. I know that if I'm averaging 165 to 170 to early in the race, then I'm not going to make it at that pace to the finish line and I back it off. I also tend to factor in RPE a bit. If my HR seems high, but RPE seems appropriate, and I like my pace, then I just leave it at that.  That's the "listen to your body" part mentioned earlier.  I've got lots of sources of input - what's my HR, what's my RPE, are my legs feeling good, am I cramping anywhere, do I feel great or good or so-so or what? 


I'm a big fan of the Jack Daniels VDOT pace training. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Daniels_(coach) .  I use the http://runbayou.com/jackd.htm calculator basedon recent results. It turns out that these numbers work well for me; anytime I try to push harder than the VDOT pace says I can do, I tend to blow up in the race.  I find I subtract about 30 seconds per mile for a triathlon run vs. an open half or full marathon, and I can run well.  During my last HIM back in June in Hawaii I hammered the bike to get a bike leg PR, knowing I'd suffer on the run.  And boy did I suffer!

I'm also a big fan of Maffetone style training for early season base work. Here's one of many articles on that http://strengthrunning.com/2015/02/maffetone-method-and-base-training/  That's a critical one, but there are some points in there.  The original Mark Allen article is here: http://duathlon.com/articles/1460 and that's a positive take on it. 


BTW, Chattanooga doesn't look sold out according the website.  But $715?  Ouch!



Edited by brucemorgan 2016-10-17 5:30 PM
2016-10-17 6:01 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills
Chattanooga 70.3! I'm doing the half.....and then IMNC (October).

OK....7 mi. run on what I would consider a hilly route, just completed. Avg. HR was 148. Pace of 10:03. 495 ft of gain.

Comparably, my 6.45 mi. run - last Monday, Avg. HR 138. Pace of 10:11. 200' gain.

The shorter run was a walk in the park, compared to the one I just finished.

My question really is.......did I not work hard enough on the shorter run.........too hard on the longer, hillier run......or "none of the above"?

My only open HM was 6 yrs ago (1:52:xx). My best 5K time was 23:xx. I have no idea if I'm running smart or not.

Thanks for all of your input. I'll read those links, Bruce. Thanks.
2016-10-17 6:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Originally posted by nc452010 Chattanooga 70.3! I'm doing the half.....and then IMNC (October).

Oh I get it.  Earlier I was looking at the full.  $630 now for a Foundation slot for the 70.3. 

Hills do make the run a lot tougher, but that's the kind of course you're going to have to run to be ready for Chattanooga. Only way to race hills well is to train on hills - specificity matters!



Edited by brucemorgan 2016-10-17 6:21 PM
2016-10-18 6:13 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

I've done that race twice.  Fast swim + fast bike.  The bike course will tempt you to overbike since it runs pretty fast...don't.  The cumulative effect of running the hills seem to hit me around mile 8 each of the last 2 years.  As I recall and which has been mentioned earlier, the bridges aren't too bad but you'll definitely feel them on the second loop.  There is a bit of an uphill slog to a turnaround after you cross over Veterans bridge (especially not fun the second time around).  There is only 1 other spot that gave me problems and its a short steep section (a little ways before you cross Veterans) that I power walked each loop...I averaged about 10 min miles for the course and I have about the same speed profile as you (5k-23.22 and HM 1:53).  FWIW, I went...

Race Summary...Swim00:32:58 Bike 02:48:41 Run 02:10:49 Overall 05:42:51

You can do better.  I was a bit undertrained coming off a collarbone break last year.  Good luck.  I love that race even though running is not my strong suit. 

 



2016-10-18 6:51 PM
in reply to: JoelO

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

Ha, those two sections are the exact ones I am talking about.  They sucked!   

2016-10-20 3:43 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Question on running hills

I think this is a good question.  Firstly- you're doing the best thing, training on hills.  

But come race day, I suggest monitoring your intensity closely when going up hill.  Think of it this way, hills are not 'harder', but they are slower.  If your race plan is to do your run at 90%LTHR, then stick to it.  OK, the reality is that I've always allowed my HR to climb just a little on the hills, but the idea is, not too much. If you let it go over LT, you'll pay for it big time later in the run.  So, try to maintain an even intensity and throw pace out the window.  Don't even look at your pace when going up hills.

for that matter- looking at your pace going downhill can be just as deceiving.  Downhills are not a time to 'rest'.  they are a time to maintain intensity which would allow for a faster pace.  

enjoy!

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