General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Power meter Rss Feed  
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2016-11-04 3:09 PM

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Smithtown, New York
Subject: Power meter
So after a great first year back in the sport I'm now beginning to use my HR monitor for running again and my power meter when I get on the bike next month. I just need a little clarification on it's use. Right now I'm an exercise physiology student and I'm having some fun using the HR monitor

Does it make sense to establish FTP using my aerobic HR zone? I am not willing to do an actual FTP until my first race since I can't afford to go at any hard intensities until then. Kinda trained too hard in the winter this year so lesson learned! Also Is using power similar to using running pace for training purposes?


2016-11-04 7:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Power meter

Originally posted by Rileyvb91Does it make sense to establish FTP using my aerobic HR zone?

Nope.

Originally posted by Rileyvb91I am not willing to do an actual FTP until my first race since I can't afford to go at any hard intensities until then. Kinda trained too hard in the winter this year so lesson learned!

None of that makes sense.  You want to establish some kind of baseline and how would you do that if you're not testing and inexperienced?  Otherwise you're just using your power meter as a super expensive bike computer with data that's not telling you much.

Originally posted by Rileyvb91Also Is using power similar to using running pace for training purposes?

Yes, but better.  Using speed/pace is subject to several variables.  A watt doesn't care how windy it is, how hilly it is, how hot it is, how hydrated you are, how nourished you are, how much you slept, etc.



Edited by GMAN 19030 2016-11-04 7:19 PM
2016-11-05 6:17 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter
If you do the FTP test in a well-rested state and warm up/cool down properly, it should only take a day or two to recover afterwards. You'll be fine doing it a week or more out from a race. You do realize that the usual protocol is a 20-minute max effort (after some warmup) and take 95% of average power, or sometimes calculate it from a combination of a 20-minute and 5-minute efforts? You don't actually ride all-out for an hour, which I believe is what FTP is actually supposed to represent.

Also, how are you going to race if you haven't done any work at hard intensities? Wouldn't race effort be kind of a cruel shock in that case? You probably don't want to go race intensity for the whole race distance/time, but I can't envision training programs (unless for total beginners) that don't include any work at race effort.
2016-11-11 5:07 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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74
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Smithtown, New York
Subject: RE: Power meter
Right now I'm still getting back into shape after a couple years off, 2016 was fun!

To clarify my goal is to train and gather data through the winter as I condition myself. Trying to push higher watts at easier intensities.
2016-11-11 5:19 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter
You could use the average power during the race as a baseline in that case. It wouldn't be super-accurate or really represent FTP (unless the bike leg was about an hour and you went all-out, then wrote off the run) but might give you an idea. I have done this for run threshold tests (used average HR from a stand-alone 5K), just because it's easier for me to run hard with others to pace off and in a race setting (no need to stop for traffic, etc.) I still think that unless there are serious medical concerns (like a heart condition, or getting over an illness) that a 20-minute hard effort is not going to ruin your training. It is, however, no fun!
2016-11-12 5:46 AM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by Rileyvb91!
Trying to push higher watts at easier intensities.


Just pointing out... this is every cyclists goal.

Do an ftp test now. Don't sweat how well rested you are before... it's just a number to work off of. The first time you do one it'll be tough to pace it correctly anyways.


2016-11-12 7:09 AM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Originally posted by Rileyvb91!
Trying to push higher watts at easier intensities.


Just pointing out... this is every cyclists goal.

Do an ftp test now. Don't sweat how well rested you are before... it's just a number to work off of. The first time you do one it'll be tough to pace it correctly anyways.


FTP tests are harder on the mind than the body IMO. Your first few ones probably won't even be that accurate, and they aren't too hard to recover from. On my first one I went too easy, and on my second one I went to hard and blew up. I would recommend going into it on fresh legs, but you should be fine after for regular training especially if you are doing primarily z2 stuff. I'm assuming you are talking about a 20 minute test and not an actual hour TT.
2016-11-12 12:52 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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74
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Smithtown, New York
Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by Lupy

Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Originally posted by Rileyvb91!
Trying to push higher watts at easier intensities.


Just pointing out... this is every cyclists goal.

Do an ftp test now. Don't sweat how well rested you are before... it's just a number to work off of. The first time you do one it'll be tough to pace it correctly anyways.


FTP tests are harder on the mind than the body IMO. Your first few ones probably won't even be that accurate, and they aren't too hard to recover from. On my first one I went too easy, and on my second one I went to hard and blew up. I would recommend going into it on fresh legs, but you should be fine after for regular training especially if you are doing primarily z2 stuff. I'm assuming you are talking about a 20 minute test and not an actual hour TT.


I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off for a couple months. Testing in an early season race or training session I feel would be a lot more productive. I could get in shape and come spring I can have a much better opportunity than this winter
2016-11-12 2:09 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by Rileyvb91
I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off for a couple months. Testing in an early season race or training session I feel would be a lot more productive. I could get in shape and come spring I can have a much better opportunity than this winter


To properly train with a power meter you need to know what your CURRENT threshold power is. You need to be doing a mix of VO2, threshold, tempo and aerobic work and different times along your plan. These levels are best set knowing your threshold power and you won't get an accurate threshold power without some kind of test. If you don't plan to train close or above threshold, it's probably not as important.

Even if you are not in your best shape, knowing your FTP in "not best shape" is important. You work with respect to that number and it will go up.

Let's say my FTP when in optimal shape is 250. And let's say after a layoff, very early in the season it's 200. Ear;y in the season I should be setting my zones with the 200 number. I should test along my training plan, see it improve and reset my zones accordingly.

Working with an accurate number will help you optimize your training. A good plan with properly set zones leads to MUCH more efficient training.

Yes, you can ballpark your Power to HR number and hopefully it will go up. But that's a pretty ineffective use of a power meter.
2016-11-12 2:16 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by Rileyvb91

Originally posted by Lupy

Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Originally posted by Rileyvb91!
Trying to push higher watts at easier intensities.


Just pointing out... this is every cyclists goal.

Do an ftp test now. Don't sweat how well rested you are before... it's just a number to work off of. The first time you do one it'll be tough to pace it correctly anyways.


FTP tests are harder on the mind than the body IMO. Your first few ones probably won't even be that accurate, and they aren't too hard to recover from. On my first one I went too easy, and on my second one I went to hard and blew up. I would recommend going into it on fresh legs, but you should be fine after for regular training especially if you are doing primarily z2 stuff. I'm assuming you are talking about a 20 minute test and not an actual hour TT.


I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off for a couple months. Testing in an early season race or training session I feel would be a lot more productive. I could get in shape and come spring I can have a much better opportunity than this winter


Dude, just take the test and see what the results are. You're not gonna hurt yourself doing it and you don't need to be "in good enough shape". If you ever done it, think of it as similar to a Jeff Galloway Magic Mile. It's good information to have.
2016-11-12 4:31 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Power meter

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Rileyvb91 I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off for a couple months. Testing in an early season race or training session I feel would be a lot more productive. I could get in shape and come spring I can have a much better opportunity than this winter
To properly train with a power meter you need to know what your CURRENT threshold power is. You need to be doing a mix of VO2, threshold, tempo and aerobic work and different times along your plan. These levels are best set knowing your threshold power and you won't get an accurate threshold power without some kind of test. If you don't plan to train close or above threshold, it's probably not as important. Even if you are not in your best shape, knowing your FTP in "not best shape" is important. You work with respect to that number and it will go up. Let's say my FTP when in optimal shape is 250. And let's say after a layoff, very early in the season it's 200. Ear;y in the season I should be setting my zones with the 200 number. I should test along my training plan, see it improve and reset my zones accordingly. Working with an accurate number will help you optimize your training. A good plan with properly set zones leads to MUCH more efficient training. Yes, you can ballpark your Power to HR number and hopefully it will go up. But that's a pretty ineffective use of a power meter.

So true about relating it to current fitness. Had a substantial injury awhile back and lost a lot of fitness. Swallowed some pride and figured out what the new value was. All work was related to whatever it was at the time, but got it all back rather quickly. I did need a couple weeks back on a bike to get a feel for things, but it was only weeks, not months. For me, twice a week with hard workouts is normal, so another way to look at it was that I only needed a handful of these to get a feel and be training appropriately again.



2016-11-12 5:10 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Durham, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by Rileyvb91
I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off for a couple months. Testing in an early season race or training session I feel would be a lot more productive. I could get in shape and come spring I can have a much better opportunity than this winter


To properly train with a power meter you need to know what your CURRENT threshold power is. You need to be doing a mix of VO2, threshold, tempo and aerobic work and different times along your plan. These levels are best set knowing your threshold power and you won't get an accurate threshold power without some kind of test. If you don't plan to train close or above threshold, it's probably not as important.

Even if you are not in your best shape, knowing your FTP in "not best shape" is important. You work with respect to that number and it will go up.

Let's say my FTP when in optimal shape is 250. And let's say after a layoff, very early in the season it's 200. Ear;y in the season I should be setting my zones with the 200 number. I should test along my training plan, see it improve and reset my zones accordingly.

Working with an accurate number will help you optimize your training. A good plan with properly set zones leads to MUCH more efficient training.

Yes, you can ballpark your Power to HR number and hopefully it will go up. But that's a pretty ineffective use of a power meter.


+1
2016-11-13 2:43 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter

I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off for a couple months. Testing in an early season race or training session I feel would be a lot more productive. I could get in shape and come spring I can have a much better opportunity than this winter

I haven't been on a bike now for 8 months.  I'm all set to restart using something like the BT Winter Cycling plan as a basis to get back into shape, just based on experience over the years I know my Critical Power will be around 190-200W.  I prefer using the Critical Power (CP) method with the two separate tests vs the single 20' FTP test.  Regardless, I'll start out doing the 5' and 20' CP tests to know where I'm at today and follow the plans progressive build.  In ~4 weeks, per the plan, I'll retest again and start the next phase with a new CP value.  It's what proper training requires.

As others said above, don't waste time, do the testing and train properly with the right information...

2016-11-13 8:21 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter
if your not going to use your power meter, i'm looking for one. i'll put it to good use.
2016-11-14 10:42 AM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter

Originally posted by Nick B if your not going to use your power meter, i'm looking for one. i'll put it to good use.


I'm surprised no one has asked how he's determined his run HR zones!

2016-11-14 1:50 PM
in reply to: Rileyvb91

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Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by Rileyvb91


I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off


It's a measurement. There is no "pulling it off". Take the test, and use it to train properly, then test again.


2016-11-15 5:25 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Power meter
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by Rileyvb91


I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off


It's a measurement. There is no "pulling it off". Take the test, and use it to train properly, then test again.


The only way that this make sense to me is that the OP is coming back from close to zero and is not able to "pull it off" because he feels that he will not be able to finish an FTP test. (When I first started using Trainer Road, it took three tries to be able to complete a one hour FTP test. It was a combination of lack of experience and lack of fitness.)
2016-11-15 8:13 AM
in reply to: bwingate

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Subject: RE: Power meter

Originally posted by bwingate
Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Rileyvb91 I just don't feel I'm in good enough shape yet to really pull it off
It's a measurement. There is no "pulling it off". Take the test, and use it to train properly, then test again.
The only way that this make sense to me is that the OP is coming back from close to zero and is not able to "pull it off" because he feels that he will not be able to finish an FTP test. (When I first started using Trainer Road, it took three tries to be able to complete a one hour FTP test. It was a combination of lack of experience and lack of fitness.)

Lots of people "feel" that way about the test, but it's more just getting some sense of what one can do and then having the fortitude to hold it. Your best effort is still your best effort. For the bike, it would mainly just be a lower number if fitness is less. Needing experience would be more a reason for doing sooner than later.The OP is not doing any hard workouts for now, not just FTP testing, for reasons that aren't entirely clear. Could be something like burn out. Some sort of health problem (not really the same as lack of fitness). Have been there, and also didn't go hard in those times. Also did not try to extrapolate out numbers in that time. So don't try to do some workaround. Just wait until able to do some harder workouts again.

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