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Rolling start
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 2016-11-15 1:17 AM |
 471  |  Subject: Rolling startI'm doing my first 70.3 rolling swim start in a few weeks and was after some advice. I'm normally a FOP swimmer, not super quick 27/28mins but would be top 10/20 in my AG. However with a rolling start I could potentially be starting with quicker guys/girls from other age groups. I was thinking of stalking someone quicker and trying to start the same time as them, with the aim of jumping on their toes. But the people I had in mind are much quicker, 23, 24 mins. I have no idea if I can keep up with someone going 3, 4 minutes quicker. Also are there any other rolling start swim tips? I'll be starting in fastest group < 30, should I aim to start at the front? Is it easier to draft in a rolling swim start? TIA |
| 2016-11-15 6:35 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Master 8247    Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Rolling start Not sure about stalking someone that much quicker, but you need to realize that people tend to seed themselves very, shall we say, "optimistically" for self-selected rolling starts. My best time for the HIM swim is about 33 minutes. In the last race I did with a rolling start, I seeded myself toward the front (about 1/3 or 1/4 of the way back) of the "30 to 35 minute" group. Admittedly, I am not a sprint animal and probably start a bit slower than others who end up swimming the same time as I do overall. But how would that account for the large numbers of people doing breaststroke that I passed, beginning about 200m into the swim???? Those people had to have started in the first wave, ahead of me, in "under 30 minutes". Right. I would stand toward the front but not quite in front, and realize that you will be sharing your space with some people who are WAY faster, and some people who have no business being there. It will be hard to keep a specific person in sight in a crowd (I've tried and failed a few times), but just look for a good pair of feet that are setting an accurate course at a pace that feels right and stick to them. Personally, yes, I think it's easier to find a good draft in a rolling start. Though that might be because in Asia, in wave starts, women almost always start last, behind the men, so you have smaller people (on average) trying to make their way through packs of bigger people, and women trying to draft other women. (The best draft, in my experience, is when you follow someone substantially bigger than you, as long as they don't kick too hard.) A rolling start, by definition, is "co-ed", so I can draft men, who are mostly bigger than me, and don't have to plow through nearly as many BOP guys from previous waves. |
| 2016-11-15 7:03 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Rolling start Trying to hand on to someone who can swim 4-5 minutes faster than you for 1.2 miles is probably not the smartest thing. Looks like a recipe for burning a lot of your matches too early if you're able to hang on. Odds are you won't be able to hang that long and may tire yourself out trying. My cycling skills are probably analogous to your swimming skills. I'm not at the pointy end of the spear but maybe middle of the front of the pack. I say that when I'm well trained, consistent, and focused which has not happened in about three years, but play along for our purposes here. I wouldn't try to hang with a 2:10 cyclist if I'm going to ride 2:24. Just race your own race. Unless you're aiming for a 70.3 WC slot. Then you might need to gamble when you can. |
| 2016-11-15 7:35 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Rolling start Yes, aim to start near the front. But I am not sure if it is any easier to draft in a rolling start. They key is to find someone faster than you but not too much faster. In a rolling start like that you are more likely to have more 'options' that might fit the bill, so your odds of finding a good draft may be a bit better. 3-4min faster than you might be a bridge too far, but the worst that happens is that you get behind them and they pull away from you. You don't want to work too hard to stay in the draft. The whole idea is to be able to either swim faster at the same effort as you would on your own. Or to swim the same time but at an easier effort so you have some more in the tank for the bike/run. If they pull away, simply look for the next pair of feet to get behind and follow. |
| 2016-11-15 9:21 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: Rolling start You might be able hold the feet of someone 1-2 min faster not 3 or 4. The folks going 4 min faster will go out hard for 50 to 100m to keep people from sitting on them. If you swim that fast it takes nothing out of you to do that. |
| 2016-11-15 9:38 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| 701 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by Hot Runner people tend to seed themselves very, shall we say, "optimistically" for self-selected rolling starts. My best time for the HIM swim is about 33 minutes. In the last race I did with a rolling start, I seeded myself toward the front (about 1/3 or 1/4 of the way back) of the "30 to 35 minute" group. . I'm right around there. Maybe a skosh slower.....but I'm also gonna say I'm older too...you know....ego. Can't be letting anyone think I'm not an animal or something. I actually tend to seed myself "unoptimistically". When I knew I wasn't a strong swimmer, I just hung off the back and even waited a few beats. Then I got to be a better swimmer. And in seeded time trial pool sprint once...I went with my 'usual' time and then shaved it a bit thinking I'm only going a couple hundred yards...I can go full out. Yah, that worked out well. For the first 5 lengths....until I overplayed my hand. Back to the back for me. I really should do better now that I'm pretty good relative to my AG. I end up crawling over a ton of people. For the OP, you're faster than you think...I'd be closer to the front. You can always aim for the outside.....away from the buoy line. Seems like everyone loooves to hug those buoys. Generally a fair amount of elbow room. And sometimes, that's counterintuitive.......'sup Muncie swim? |
| 2016-11-15 6:55 PM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by Hot Runner Not sure about stalking someone that much quicker, but you need to realize that people tend to seed themselves very, shall we say, "optimistically" for self-selected rolling starts. My best time for the HIM swim is about 33 minutes. In the last race I did with a rolling start, I seeded myself toward the front (about 1/3 or 1/4 of the way back) of the "30 to 35 minute" group. Admittedly, I am not a sprint animal and probably start a bit slower than others who end up swimming the same time as I do overall. But how would that account for the large numbers of people doing breaststroke that I passed, beginning about 200m into the swim???? Those people had to have started in the first wave, ahead of me, in "under 30 minutes That's irritating! So I'm guessing make sure I'm in the first 50 - 100 swimmers? |
| 2016-11-15 9:06 PM in reply to: #5205033 |
| 9 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Yes. Definitely be in first 50-100. I have done 1 relay swim in a HIM. I swam 29 minutes and change and was the 19th fastest a mature. 27 minutes is way better than |
| 2016-11-15 9:08 PM in reply to: #5205139 |
| 9 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Than you think |
| 2016-11-16 7:11 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Rolling start Either you are mistaken about your time to swim 1.2 miles or you are much faster than you think. A 27 to 28 minute swim is top 5% OA at most 70.3's assuming no current and accurate coarse. In the events I've done the top pros were around 24 minutes and the slower pros were 29 to 30 minutes. If you can do a 27 minute swim and try to hold the feet of someone doing a 24 minute swim I would say you are in for an epic fail on the bike and run. You should be trying to hold the feet of someone that can swim it about 1 minute faster than you. So if you really that fast you should get in the water in the first 50 or 60 swimmers, if people seeded themselves correctly that will be that area of people a minute or so faster than you. Considering that this is your first 70.3 I am guessing you are wrong on that 27/28 minutes- maybe that is your 1 mile time? IF you could swim 27/28 you would come out of your AG in the top 3 or 4 most of the time. Since when is the under 30 the fastest group? I can't even count how many times I would have been on podium in that AG while placing 4th or 5th in my old man groups. |
| 2016-11-16 7:25 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Rolling start Not sure what "under 30" you're referring to. In my post, I meant "under 30 minutes" (for HIM swim), not under age 30. That was the fastest group for self-seeding at IM Vietnam 70.3 and I think pretty typical for age-groupers with that set-up. It presumably included people, hopefully most of them stronger swimmers, from plenty of different age groups, as well as both men and women. I believe the OP may also mean "under 30 minutes" when he says <30, since he said it was a rolling start. Those are normally based on projected time. Otherwise it would be an AG wave start. Edited by Hot Runner 2016-11-16 7:27 AM |
| 2016-11-16 9:46 AM in reply to: zedzded |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by zedzded I'm doing my first 70.3 rolling swim start in a few weeks and was after some advice. I'm normally a FOP swimmer, not super quick 27/28mins but would be top 10/20 in my AG. However with a rolling start I could potentially be starting with quicker guys/girls from other age groups. I was thinking of stalking someone quicker and trying to start the same time as them, with the aim of jumping on their toes. But the people I had in mind are much quicker, 23, 24 mins. I have no idea if I can keep up with someone going 3, 4 minutes quicker. Also are there any other rolling start swim tips? I'll be starting in fastest group < 30, should I aim to start at the front? Is it easier to draft in a rolling swim start? TIA If this is your first 70.3 how are you estimating your time to be 27/28 minutes? Just curious. I'm normally in that time range and tend to start towards the front. The problem is two fold; one is that people will over optimistically seed themselves and two is that even if you're right next to people who will finish at the same time as you, there are a lot of people that go absolutely bananas for the first 200 meters (which makes zero sense to me to go anaerobic like that, let alone on a 4+ hr race). So what I do is put myself to the front but way to the outside. Hop in and swim my pace, let the sprinters go burn a couple matches then catch up and pass them a couple hundred meters in and then hug the buoys once things settle out. It's worked well for me. Also, the field will be a bit thin in the 27/28 min range so if it is a smaller race, you'll likely not have anyone to draft on. |
| 2016-11-16 10:22 AM in reply to: 3mar |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by zedzded I'm doing my first 70.3 rolling swim start in a few weeks and was after some advice. I'm normally a FOP swimmer, not super quick 27/28mins but would be top 10/20 in my AG. However with a rolling start I could potentially be starting with quicker guys/girls from other age groups. I was thinking of stalking someone quicker and trying to start the same time as them, with the aim of jumping on their toes. But the people I had in mind are much quicker, 23, 24 mins. I have no idea if I can keep up with someone going 3, 4 minutes quicker. Also are there any other rolling start swim tips? I'll be starting in fastest group < 30, should I aim to start at the front? Is it easier to draft in a rolling swim start? TIA If this is your first 70.3 how are you estimating your time to be 27/28 minutes? Just curious. I'm normally in that time range and tend to start towards the front. The problem is two fold; one is that people will over optimistically seed themselves and two is that even if you're right next to people who will finish at the same time as you, there are a lot of people that go absolutely bananas for the first 200 meters (which makes zero sense to me to go anaerobic like that, let alone on a 4+ hr race). So what I do is put myself to the front but way to the outside. Hop in and swim my pace, let the sprinters go burn a couple matches then catch up and pass them a couple hundred meters in and then hug the buoys once things settle out. It's worked well for me. Also, the field will be a bit thin in the 27/28 min range so if it is a smaller race, you'll likely not have anyone to draft on. There are 2 good reasons to go out hard even in a HIM (or IM swim). One is that if you are really fast, you distance yourself from those who may try to benefit from your draft and maintain a full margin on the swim leg. Two is that if you are trying to keep up with the "ones", you will have to go out harder at the start to hold onto their feet. Then settle in and draft the rest of the way. There is almost always someone to draft unless it is a very small race or you are really an outlier in terms of ability. It is not always easy to find them (and sometimes not worth the effort). |
| 2016-11-16 11:23 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by Hot Runner Not sure what "under 30" you're referring to. In my post, I meant "under 30 minutes" (for HIM swim), not under age 30. That was the fastest group for self-seeding at IM Vietnam 70.3 and I think pretty typical for age-groupers with that set-up. It presumably included people, hopefully most of them stronger swimmers, from plenty of different age groups, as well as both men and women. I believe the OP may also mean "under 30 minutes" when he says <30, since he said it was a rolling start. Those are normally based on projected time. Otherwise it would be an AG wave start. I read it as the under 30 age group. I've done events that were rolling start and still broken up by age groups. Larger age groups in a corral with 5 people leaving every 5 seconds. |
| 2016-11-16 4:21 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Extreme Veteran 1175 Langley, BC, 'Wet Coast' Canada | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Hot Runner Not sure what "under 30" you're referring to. In my post, I meant "under 30 minutes" (for HIM swim), not under age 30. That was the fastest group for self-seeding at IM Vietnam 70.3 and I think pretty typical for age-groupers with that set-up. It presumably included people, hopefully most of them stronger swimmers, from plenty of different age groups, as well as both men and women. I believe the OP may also mean "under 30 minutes" when he says <30, since he said it was a rolling start. Those are normally based on projected time. Otherwise it would be an AG wave start. I read it as the under 30 age group. I've done events that were rolling start and still broken up by age groups. Larger age groups in a corral with 5 people leaving every 5 seconds. OP mentions possibly starting with faster athletes from other age groups |
| 2016-11-17 11:30 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Member 1083 | Subject: RE: Rolling start What race is this? The 70.3s by me start by age group waves. |
| 2016-11-17 8:01 PM in reply to: zedzded |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Don't know about the original question since I only successfully drafted off of someone that was going about my pace but seemed to be sighting better, but I'm a HUGE fan of rolling starts. I don't mind the mass starts where everyone starts at the same time, but rolling starts are even better. I had this experience for the first time in my last race and I felt so good throughout the swim and when I got out of the water- no fighting at any point during the swim. When they start you by age group, I lose bad because that puts me toward the back and then I have to swim around a bunch of swimmers. Even 750m can tire me out this way. And of course I end up with a poor time with these types of starts. With the rolling start, I can swim aggressively and still save much energy for the two events to come. |
| 2016-11-18 12:19 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Rolling start Exactly. Try being an older female and (by triathlete standards, at least) a strong swimmer. It is pretty common for me to spend 90% of my race trying to make my way through packs of guys, starting with the BOP and then on from there. I had the worst swim of my life in an event last year where women over 40 started last and were "injected" from the side into a stream of men and younger women swimming in a narrow "lane" on a two-loop course (2 X 750m--Oly-distance aquathlon). I honestly don't remember taking more than two strokes at any point in the race that did not involve hitting another swimmer, being hit or kicked by another swimmer, and/or being pushed into the rope marking the course. Swallowed a large amount of water and that ruined my run. I can hardly even consider what I did a "swim". It was more like a fight, or that Navy Seal "drown proofing" exercise where the instructor tries to "stress" the candidates. This is probably the main reason why my average pace/100m has been faster in most of my HIM than in most of my sprints and Olys. If the HIM is a small wave or is time-based, or there is lots of room to manoeuvre, I can spend most of my time actually swimming in the clear. Of course one can sometimes get clear water by swimming to the outside, but that often involves swimming extra distance (often worth it in my case). But some courses are quite narrow, and there really isn't anywhere to go for a late-starting faster swimmer but over and through! |
| 2016-11-18 2:37 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by Hot Runner But some courses are quite narrow, and there really isn't anywhere to go for a late-starting faster swimmer but over and through! As long as we're being honest here...Yes, definitely going over is part of it! The thing is that your whole age group is right there with you in the back. You know there are other good swimmers so it comes down to whoever is going to be the most aggressive. It sucks, but if someone is going to swim a slow breaststroke when there are swimmers all around him/her, well then going over is okay, as far as I'm concerned. But it can all be avoided with the rolling start, as I experienced in my last race. Smooth, fast, controlled, enjoyable swim. Looking back, I should have done less sighting, but I'm so used to being thrown off track by other swimmers that I stuck to my old habits. Oh well, I know better now. |
| 2016-11-19 5:00 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by mike761 Either you are mistaken about your time to swim 1.2 miles or you are much faster than you think. A 27 to 28 minute swim is top 5% OA at most 70.3's assuming no current and accurate coarse. In the events I've done the top pros were around 24 minutes and the slower pros were 29 to 30 minutes. If you can do a 27 minute swim and try to hold the feet of someone doing a 24 minute swim I would say you are in for an epic fail on the bike and run. You should be trying to hold the feet of someone that can swim it about 1 minute faster than you. So if you really that fast you should get in the water in the first 50 or 60 swimmers, if people seeded themselves correctly that will be that area of people a minute or so faster than you. Considering that this is your first 70.3 I am guessing you are wrong on that 27/28 minutes- maybe that is your 1 mile time? IF you could swim 27/28 you would come out of your AG in the top 3 or 4 most of the time. Since when is the under 30 the fastest group? I can't even count how many times I would have been on podium in that AG while placing 4th or 5th in my old man groups. No this is my 10th 70.3. I did 27mins on this course in May, but this is my first rolling start. It is at the end of a 2km jetty, swimming more or less in a straight line back to the beach. Race is Busso 70.3 I'm in Australia, 27mins would get me in the top 15/top ten usually, I've looked at overseas 70.3s and the swimming standard doesn't look as good, I would probably be top 3 in my age group, but not here. Plenty of ex-swimmers in all age groups. |
| 2016-11-19 5:01 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by Hot Runner Not sure what "under 30" you're referring to. In my post, I meant "under 30 minutes" (for HIM swim), not under age 30. That was the fastest group for self-seeding at IM Vietnam 70.3 and I think pretty typical for age-groupers with that set-up. It presumably included people, hopefully most of them stronger swimmers, from plenty of different age groups, as well as both men and women. I believe the OP may also mean "under 30 minutes" when he says <30, since he said it was a rolling start. Those are normally based on projected time. Otherwise it would be an AG wave start. I read it as the under 30 age group. I've done events that were rolling start and still broken up by age groups. Larger age groups in a corral with 5 people leaving every 5 seconds. under 30mins. Waves are split up: < 30 <35 <40 |
| 2016-12-05 11:47 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Swim start https://www.facebook.com/ironmanwesternaustralia/videos/979670788811... First rolling start and it went well. Walked 2km to the end of the Jetty and either jumped or dove off a 1.5m platform under the jetty. As you dove off you went through a timing gate and then basically swam the 1.9km back to shore. I managed to jump om the toes of a quick guy and hung on for a while till he moved off, ended up with 26mins which I was happy with. Downside was I was pretty much on my own on the bike for a large part of the race, which was tough mentally and I had no idea where I was positioned in the race. I was 3rd after the swim, but lost 3 places on the bike, then hung on for 6th on the run. Edited by zedzded 2016-12-05 11:59 PM |
| 2016-12-06 4:58 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Rolling start That sounds like an awesome swim. Glad it worked out for you! I have never heard of a jetty that long! Did you get any kind of current push back to shore? |
| 2016-12-06 4:34 PM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| 471 | Subject: RE: Rolling start Originally posted by Hot Runner That sounds like an awesome swim. Glad it worked out for you! I have never heard of a jetty that long! Did you get any kind of current push back to shore? Not really, little bit of chop from a cross wind, but relatively flat and fast. |
| 2016-12-08 2:45 AM in reply to: zedzded |
Veteran 2441 Western Australia | Subject: RE: Rolling start Glad your swim went so well. Somehow I missed that they had added a 70.3 to the event program for December and since I saw it the other day it has got me thinking about maybe in 2018. |
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