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2016-12-30 12:16 PM

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Subject: First Ironman - Training Races
Planning my race season for 2017 and plan to do my first Ironman Maryland in October.

My longest distance at any sport has been an Oly Tri and a Half Marathon.

I plan on running a full marathon in the spring, century ride in August and a half triathlon in September with some more sprint and olympic races scattered throughout the season. I'm a minimalist when it comes to training so I won't be doing many 4-5 hour training rides at all.

Interested in some feedback/suggestions on training races leading up to an Ironman.

Happy New Year!


2016-12-30 12:20 PM
in reply to: bmorgan58

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Suggestions:

Marathon - train for the marathon, race a half marathon instead

Half Iron - I would go earlier than September - early/mid August

Shane
2016-12-30 2:34 PM
in reply to: bmorgan58

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

Originally posted by bmorgan58  I'm a minimalist when it comes to training so I won't be doing many 4-5 hour training rides at all.  

I appreciate a minimalist training plan, but you might consider checking out a variety of plans to see how yours stacks up in regards to bike volume. As a beginner, I was the most surprised at how much time I needed to put in the saddle before I felt comfortable riding 100+ miles, let alone swimming before and running a marathon after. Just a suggestion.

For training races, I agree with the other suggestion to move the 70.3 to be 8-10 weeks out from your IM so you can adjust things like pacing and nutrition based on those results. I would also ditch the sprints and olympic races as for a typical training week they will be far too short of a "workout" and you'll need to double up on sessions those weekends. If anything, maybe an olympic race early in your training plan to remind yourself how racing feels.

2016-12-30 7:26 PM
in reply to: lisac957

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by bmorgan58  I'm a minimalist when it comes to training so I won't be doing many 4-5 hour training rides at all.  

I appreciate a minimalist training plan, but you might consider checking out a variety of plans to see how yours stacks up in regards to bike volume. As a beginner, I was the most surprised at how much time I needed to put in the saddle before I felt comfortable riding 100+ miles



I think this is the key to a successful Ironman experience. If your cycling is solid, it sets you up for a good run. Best of luck!
2016-12-31 7:37 AM
in reply to: bmorgan58


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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
How much will you neglect your swim and bike to race the marathon? I wouldn't sacrifice bike time early in the year for the sake of a marathon. Bike gains don't come quick and you will want to at least maintain any fitness you have while training for the marathon.
2017-01-01 9:41 PM
in reply to: tedjohn

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Originally posted by tedjohn

Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by bmorgan58  I'm a minimalist when it comes to training so I won't be doing many 4-5 hour training rides at all.  

I appreciate a minimalist training plan, but you might consider checking out a variety of plans to see how yours stacks up in regards to bike volume. As a beginner, I was the most surprised at how much time I needed to put in the saddle before I felt comfortable riding 100+ miles



I think this is the key to a successful Ironman experience. If your cycling is solid, it sets you up for a good run. Best of luck!


Agreed! I skipped several of my long training rides cause I just hate biking. While I did OK on my IM bike, it was no where as fast as I hoped for. Next time I will just grit my teeth and know that I must put in those 100+ mile rides.


2017-01-02 12:41 AM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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Bellevue, WA
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

Originally posted by bmorgan58 Planning my race season for 2017 and plan to do my first Ironman Maryland in October. My longest distance at any sport has been an Oly Tri and a Half Marathon. I plan on running a full marathon in the spring, century ride in August and a half triathlon in September with some more sprint and olympic races scattered throughout the season. I'm a minimalist when it comes to training so I won't be doing many 4-5 hour training rides at all. Interested in some feedback/suggestions on training races leading up to an Ironman. Happy New Year!

"Minimalist training" is rarely followed by a great first IM. 

I've completed 11 Ironmans, 8 half IMs, and 12 marathons since 2004. Let me tell you the #1 thing I've learned: a successful Ironman race is centered on the bike leg.  There is no other way around it. 

Swimming is the least important.  You certainly need to finish 2.4 miles without exhausting yourself, but don't need to be faster than 1:25.  Running is least important. You don't need to be faster than 5:00 hours. And since it's at the end, you just need to hang on until you collapse two steps past the finish line.

That leaves the bike as the most important part of the Ironman race. You want to be no slower than 6:30 on the bike.  When you get into 7:15, 7:30 or worse on the bike, then you're in for a long day.  And if you're not well trained on the bike, then you'll blow up on the run.  Trust me, I have seen this time and time again.  The #1 predictor of a solid run is riding well within your limits on the bike.  I have seen countless people walking the run because they pushed too hard on the bike.

In order for a 112 mile bike ride in 6:30 to be well within your limits, you have to be well trained on the bike. For most people, that means a lot of time in the saddle. It means 80, 90, 100 mile rides. It may mean full 112 mile race simulation rides followed by a 3 mile run. Most people cannot deliver a solid 112 mile bike ride built on 4 hour, 65 mile rides or 5 hour, 80 mile rides.  There's just too big a gap.  If you can deliver an 80 mile ride in 4 hours (thus 20mph average), then you could back off to 17.5 mph and deliver a 6:30 112 mile ride.

As for running, if your bike leg is well executed as I describe, then for training all you need is 16, maybe 18 mile runs.  You'll start to suffer at mile 20, but you just have to hang in the last hour.

Ironman racing is a perfect example of "you get out what you put in".  You don't get the race performance you wish for, you get the race performance you trained for within the constraints of the conditions on race day. There are no miracles on race day.

What's your swim, run, and bike background?  What's your best leg?  What are your limiters?



Edited by brucemorgan 2017-01-02 12:42 AM
2017-01-02 7:39 AM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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20

, Virginia
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Thank you for the advice. I appreciate you taking the time to write some tips from your experience.

It appears there is a consistent theme around IM training - don't fall short on the bike. Cycling is my least favorite when it comes to training as I train indoors on a trainer, but I enjoy cycling during the race. I'm discovering some things to do on the trainer so I don't get so bored. Also, I'm taking a few spin classes that are an hour long and then stay on the bike for longer after the class to get more saddle time in.

I don't really have any background in any sport except for running. I was a runner in high school and that is my strength. Just started swimming and bought my first road bike a year ago to prepare for sprint racing in 2016.

What do you mean by limiters?
2017-01-02 1:21 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

Indoor training on a bike trainer is fine for what it is, but it usually is only a portion of your bike training time.  Very few people can suffer the trainer for long enough hours to effectively train for a IM exclusively on the trainer.  I have a bike trainer and have put many hours on it but my best races come from training long hours outdoors.  I have a 40" TV, BlueRay, streaming video, and noise cancelling headphones to make the time pass.  I have also used online bike training resources like Trainer Road. That makes trainer time more effective. 

Spin classes are good for what they are, which is usually strength based interval style workouts.  Spin classes can build speed, but they won't build endurance.  Bottom line: there is only one thing that builds endurance, and (guess what!) it's endurance training.

I suggest you read about IM training, not just here but some books. I think Be IronFit: Time-Efficient Training Secrets for Ultimate Fitness is an ideal book for you.  That link is to the new 3rd edition, I have the 2nd edition and I think it's a great resource for people new to IM. 

As for limiters, I mean what are your weaknesses vs. strengths?  For example, are you slow but steady?  You can go hours on the bike, but only 14 mph.  Then bike speed is your limiter.  Or, if you can't swim more than 2 laps without stopping, then swim endurance is clearly a problem.  Those are physical limiters.  There are other types of limiters as well.  Do you have 3 small children at home?  Do you work odd hours?  Are you time rich and cash poor, or time poor and cash rich (or worse, time and cash poor)?  You can do IM on the cheap cash-wise, but you can't really do it well if you are time-poor.  Do you hate swimming?  Afraid of riding on the open road?  Have no good place to run?

The reason why your limiters are important is because you either have to work to overcome them (slow bike speed), or learn to work within them (limited cash or time) or somehow do both.

Some more advice:

Learning about IM training is sort of like learning about nutrition.  There is well accepted "mainstream" ideas, a few off-the-mainstream but reasonable ideas, and then "One Weird Trick" type wackiness.  I suggest you find a book or plan that resonates with you and STICK WITH IT rather than jumping around.  Just like you wouldn't expect great results if you vacillate between keto, Paleo, and vegan diets, you won't get great results if you jump for approach to approach. Mostly this means find a training plan and philosophy that resonates with you, and generally trust it to deliver results.

Learn about the basics of sports training. You should know terms like specificity, periodicity, adaptation, progressive overload, and recovery mean (the five principles of sports training, although some people use different terms). Learn about zones, thresholds, lactate, etc.  Learn about heart rate training, the ten point RPE scale (I don't like the 20 point version).  Know the difference between a Z1 recovery and a Z4 interval.

Most workouts should have specific purpose. You should know what the benefit of a session is supposed to deliver, and then make sure you get that benefit. For example, a run workout may be planned as a 40 minute interval workout for speed training.  If you turn that into a 40 minute slow-and-steady workout, then you didn't get the right training benefit.  Same for a 2 hour Z1/Z21 endurance run, if you hammer it at Z3 then you didn't get the right benefit.

Technology can help with your training. Garmin devices, devices that work with your phone, things like Strava are also good for tracking workouts, especially if you have compatible devices that record and upload data. IM can be a gear junkies dream.  Just check out DC Rainmaker.

Most important, remember to have fun!  Calling yourself an Ironman after a race is a worthy destination, but your journey to get there is even more important if you want to be endurance athlete.  2017 is my 17th season as an endurance athlete. I got a late start (I'm 51) but still going strong.



Edited by brucemorgan 2017-01-02 1:28 PM
2017-01-02 6:40 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

Adding to what Bruce said, focus on being consistent.  Don't do some huge workout that leaves you on the couch for the next 3 days.  Set up your plan with workouts you can repeat day after day and gradually ramp up.  It's better prep for the race and it's also less likely to burn you out.

IM distance has a way of doing that to people when they go overboard and push their way through on willpower alone.  Don't make yourself hate the journey.

2017-01-03 11:18 AM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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20

, Virginia
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Again, thanks for taking the time to reply. I just started reading Joel Friel's Triathlon Bible (latest edition) and consistent, moderate training is talked about in Chapter 2, which makes sense. If I commit to IM Maryland that gives me 9 full months of training.

Limiters:
3 small children, can't leave for hours on the weekends for extended training session (2 hours at most)
Work 10 hour days (can't train in the morning)
Time poor, not cash rich, but not cash poor
Afraid to train on open road (traffic)
Seem to get an injury every couple of months that sets me back.
Planned a few trips this year (Vegas, Disney) that will set me back a week each this spring.

My average times for sprints are 1:10 - 1:15 with running being my best split. Normally a 7:30 pace, 8:30 for 10k. Finished half marathon in less than 2 hours. Swimming has never been a problem for me. I seem to increase endurance week to week by just swimming more. 40-60 laps in the pool over a 25-35 minute time period is not a struggle.

I will check out some of the other advice you listed in your last post and if you don't mind will re-post with some questions after I have a chance to get some exposure. I appreciate your time!


2017-01-03 3:07 PM
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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

Originally posted by bmorgan58  Limiters: 3 small children, can't leave for hours on the weekends for extended training session (2 hours at most) Work 10 hour days (can't train in the morning) Time poor, not cash rich, but not cash poor Afraid to train on open road (traffic) Seem to get an injury every couple of months that sets me back. Planned a few trips this year (Vegas, Disney) that will set me back a week each this spring. 

Well you certainly have a difficult path ahead of you.  How do you expect to train for a 112 bike ride or a marathon if you have only 2 hours max training time.  Do you have more time during the week?

3 small children, 10 hour days. Ouch.

Are you really sure now is the right time to take on all the training needed for an IM?  If you search this board, you will find dozens of threads on balancing family, work, and IM training.  It is not easy with small children and long work hours, and certainly requires a fully supportive partner, and even so can be hard on the family.

 



Edited by brucemorgan 2017-01-03 3:08 PM
2017-01-03 3:20 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Originally posted by bmorgan58  Limiters: 3 small children, can't leave for hours on the weekends for extended training session (2 hours at most) Work 10 hour days (can't train in the morning) Time poor, not cash rich, but not cash poor Afraid to train on open road (traffic) Seem to get an injury every couple of months that sets me back. Planned a few trips this year (Vegas, Disney) that will set me back a week each this spring. 

Well you certainly have a difficult path ahead of you.  How do you expect to train for a 112 bike ride or a marathon if you have only 2 hours max training time.  Do you have more time during the week?

3 small children, 10 hour days. Ouch.

Are you really sure now is the right time to take on all the training needed for an IM?  If you search this board, you will find dozens of threads on balancing family, work, and IM training.  It is not easy with small children and long work hours, and certainly requires a fully supportive partner, and even so can be hard on the family.

Would you be able to, say, ride an hour on the indoor trainer, then 2 hrs outside, then another hour back home on the trainer (all in a row)?  You'll need to get a bit creative to get those endurance workouts within your constraints.

Also, put a lot of thought into being super super organized.  Make food in bulk when you have free time so you can quickly heat up meals during the week.  Plan ahead and set out clothes for your workouts in advance so you can get it done immediately.

And much as I hate to say it, if your swimming is pretty solid, you might drop a day of that to add volume on the bike.  Can you bike commute to work?  That's another easy win.



Edited by spudone 2017-01-03 3:21 PM
2017-01-08 12:01 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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, Virginia
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Thanks for putting things in perspective on bike training. My plan B for 2017 is to finish a half Ironman. Right now I have a hotel booked for Raleigh in June so I think I will decide after I finish the half if a full Iron is possible later in the fall.

The motivation is there, I'm just pinched on number of hours in the day!
2017-01-08 2:06 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Agree !!

although those longer distance training sessions are hard to accomplish, it is essential IMO.

I've only done 4 IMs but each one taught me about where the training flaws affected my performance.

in the end, you do get out what you put in.
2017-01-08 2:11 PM
in reply to: bmorgan58

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
I highly suggest a virtual trainer

It has changed my riding life, I too fear the roads, and with this trainer I've actually enjoyed riding indoors.

A bonus to the trainer, is you can actually put in less time and get more out it than a real ride IMO.

I trained for a century last year on this for all the long rides, and I was very pleased with the result.
As a swag, I'd estimate 30% gain on the trainer vs real rides.

I'm using the Bkool Smart Pro trainer, and love it.


2017-01-08 2:46 PM
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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

Originally posted by TriathlonnDad Thanks for putting things in perspective on bike training. My plan B for 2017 is to finish a half Ironman. Right now I have a hotel booked for Raleigh in June so I think I will decide after I finish the half if a full Iron is possible later in the fall. The motivation is there, I'm just pinched on number of hours in the day!

So you have to ask yourself then what kind of half IM vs. IM performance do you want to have?  Do you want to "just finish" or do you want to be competitive, or something in between?  You can train for "just finish" in 10 hours a week if you're smart about it.  But you'll need to squeeze in some long rides somewhere.

I've skimped on bike training in the past and still had a good IM experience. I just wasn't fast. I've pasted an image of my spreadsheet of race results.  Green is fastest time, yellow is slowest time).

Arizona 2007 was my fastest.  I put in multiple century rides, lots of 20 mile runs.  6:11 on the bike and 4:05 on the run. Very focused, and I had a coach too.

The 15:06 was IM Los Cabos, with insufficient bike training.  I did mostly indoor trainer rides, and no more than about 3 to 4 hours. I started out slow by plan, got slower (not my plan), faded hard by mile 85 on the bike, and just hung on for nearly 8 hours. Trust me, that was a long slog on the bike. The 5:22 run was mostly because my time goal was already shot, so I just took it easy and enjoyed myself. 

Arizona in 2014 was my comeback year after breaking my collarbone in a bike crash in September 2013.  I had completed a number of 70-80 mile rides, but the headwinds were epic that day thus the 7:10 time instead of my hoped-for 6:30. There's a point on the Beeline Highway were on the first loop I was going 18 mph, the second 14 mph, and the third 9mph, same wattage.  All headwind!  I had a solid run after that.

Boulder 2015 I struggled on the swim (skimped on training, leaking googles, terrible entry).  The bike though was a solid 6:25, with about the same training as Arizona 2014, but no wind and a fabulous course. 

I was also undertrained on the bike for Canada in 2008 (the old course, now Challenge Penticton).  First time on the course, and I had done 60 mile hill rides and 100 mile flat rides, but this was a 112 miles of rollers and hills and I fell apart. You can read all about it here: http://brucemorgan.blogs.com/afc/2009/05/race-report---ironman-canada-2008-ten-months-later.html

 



Edited by brucemorgan 2017-01-08 2:49 PM




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2017-01-10 10:36 AM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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20

, Virginia
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Looks like you've got quite the resume of races on there. I don't see any Kona results though....is that on your list?

I'm definitely interested finishing somewhere in the middle as far as performance is concerned on the racing. For half IM I would like to do better than just finishing the race, which would make it fun for me. I don't think I am at the competitive level just yet.

A few people I know who trained for IM did some local sprint racing before their IM race. I enjoy sprints and think they are fun to do, especially when they are local. Do you think doing a sprint the week before a half IM can hurt any progress? What's the consensus on doing sprints before a bigger race?
2017-01-10 1:17 PM
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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races

I'd like to qualify for Kona some day, but at current speed I'd need to be in my sixties.  :-)  I can get in through the Legacy program if I complete one more IM, but that's not my plan.  I raced the IM 70.3 Hawaii last June.  Kona requires some serious training and I don't have the time for it.

Doing a sprint race a week before a half IM might be dumb, it might not be dumb. Depends on your training and what you want out of both.  If you want to enjoy both races that's different then trying to be competitive in both races. 

I always say that short races like a 5K or a sprint are about pain, and long races like 70.3, a marathon, or an IM are about suffering. They hurt in entirely different ways. I prefer to suffer, so I don't do a lot of short races.



Edited by brucemorgan 2017-01-10 1:18 PM
2017-01-10 1:46 PM
in reply to: bmorgan58

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Downingtown, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Originally posted by TriathlonnDad

Planning my race season for 2017 and plan to do my first Ironman Maryland in October.

My longest distance at any sport has been an Oly Tri and a Half Marathon.

I plan on running a full marathon in the spring, century ride in August and a half triathlon in September with some more sprint and olympic races scattered throughout the season. I'm a minimalist when it comes to training so I won't be doing many 4-5 hour training rides at all.

Interested in some feedback/suggestions on training races leading up to an Ironman.

Happy New Year!


Minimalism when it comes to the long work is only going to lead to a miserable race day. Minimalist training and Ironman simply don't mix. Oh sure you might be able to complete, but it won't be pleasant.

I wouldn't bother with the full marathon. Too much stress on the body, too much recovery time afterwards. And really, a standalone marathon and the run during an ironman have nothing in common except the distance. Running a marathon won't teach you anything about what happens when you get off the bike at an Ironman.

A half iron in September seems too late. That is when you should be primed for your longest workouts. Your biggest rides. A half iron (seeing as it will be your first) is likely to require way too much recovery at a time when you should be at the peak of your fitness. Late July or early August would be a better time frame for a half.
2017-01-10 4:01 PM
in reply to: noofus

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, Virginia
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Veteran, thanks for the insight. I'm bumping my half iron to June for Raleigh or Eagleman and I will see how things go after that. Perhaps I will have 2 race seasons this year with a 70.3 in June as my first peak race and possibly a full distance in the fall as my second peak race.


2017-01-11 11:58 AM
in reply to: TriathlonnDad

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Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
That sounds like a good plan to me! IMMD is a great first timer full. The logistics are easy, the course is fair. Let's hope for better weather this year. That one might be on my list (again) for this year if, well, something else doesn't happen first that would put me elsewhere in mid-october
2017-01-11 1:02 PM
in reply to: noofus

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, Virginia
Subject: RE: First Ironman - Training Races
Good luck. Hawaii is much better than Maryland in October...or anytime.
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